• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

"Why Did God Create Mankind if He Knew Man Would Sin?"

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
It falls under his omniscience.

.


I beg your pardon, There is no where in bible that says God is omniscience.
That's man's teachings.

There is no where in the Bible, That says God is all knowing.
That's man's teachings.

If God is all knowing as man's teachings say God is, Then how's come God didn't know that Satan was going to Rebell against God.
How's Come God didn't know that Adam and Eve was going to partake of the tree of Good and Evil.

It's evidence that God didn't know, by asking Adam, You told you were naked. Did you take of the tree which I commanded you not to take of.
Therefore God did not know.
Until Adam revealed to God that he was naked.
 
Last edited:

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
Say you're in a country where you don't know the language. The words "kerfuf," predudle," and "lieudodo" are meaningless. Someone tells you not to predudle or lieudodo because you would kerfuf. Now predudle and llieudodo are down right appealing, and you wonder why you shouldn't predudle or lieudodo. Then someone else comes along and tells you, "Hey predudle and lieudodo are great! That other guy who told you shouldn't do them is bonkers. Go ahead and predudle and lieudodo." So you go ahead and predudle and lieudodo. Unfortunately, the first guy was right, you kerfuf, and big time too.

Point being A&E had no idea what they had been told.

Gen. 2:15-17
15 The Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to till it and keep it. 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “You may freely eat of every tree of the garden; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die.

Gen. 3:
3 Now the serpent was more subtle than any other wild creature that the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God say, ‘You shall not eat of any tree of the garden’?” 2 And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden; 3 but God said, ‘You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.’” 4 But the serpent said to the woman, “You will not die. 5 For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” 6 So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate; and she also gave some to her husband, and he ate. 7 Then the eyes of both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves aprons.​

Think A&E knew what knowledge of good and knowledge of evil (predudle, and lieudodo) were? Why should they? They had just been created moments ago. Think they knew what it means to die (kerfuf)? Why should they? They had just been created moments ago. So, with absolutely no clue as to what they were told, why should they be held accountable?

In criminal law uninformed consent works much the same way. If one consents to sometime but doesn't have a clear appreciation and understanding of the facts, implications, and consequences of the action they're consenting to, they're not held liable for it. They lacked proper information. And from the way the story goes in Genesis, this was the case with A&E and the apple incident.


.

If I may ask, How many times do you suppose Adam pass by the tree of knowledge of good and Evil, Before Eve came ?

Note that Adam was place in the Garden Eden, Way before Eve came.

So the question is, How many times do you suppose Adam pass by the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Before Eve came ?

Note also Adam named all the Animals, Before Eve came.

It was only until Eve came, That Eve was the first to take of the tree of knowledge of good and Evil.
 
Last edited:

Skwim

Veteran Member
I beg your pardon, There is no where in bible that says God is omniscience.
That's man's teachings.
Perhaps so, but as I pointed out in post 15:

"87% of Christians (91% of protestants) believe god is omniscient."​

Don't want to get on board with the rest of the team, that's your choice. In the mean time, considering that a huge majority of Christians believe god is omniscient, I'll take their belief as representative of Christians. Not yours. :)

.
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
Perhaps so, but as I pointed out in post 15:

"87% of Christians (91% of protestants) believe god is omniscient."​

Don't want to get on board with the rest of the team, that's your choice. In the mean time, considering that a huge majority of Christians believe god is omniscient, I'll take their belief as representative of Christians. Not yours. :)

.


If I may say , That's them, Which they show, their lack of knowledge of anything about the Bible.

But if you wish to follow those false Christians, have a good trip.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Not at all. I do not consider free will a defect beyond His control.
If it results in sin coming into existence, then he created something he cannot control. Unless God willed sin into existence? Sin must be something outside of God, right? Then how is God omnipresent?

God has free will and we are made in His image.
Is there any biblical support which says that God has free will?

I suppose God could have created us as automatons, incapable of choice, but I'm thankful He created us with free will.
Do you think animals have the power of choice, or are they automatons?

As a characteristic of God.
But if something exists outside his control, is omnipotent actually a characteristic of God? And, if he can control sin existing outside of himself (still grappling with how that's possible when God is considered omnipresent), then him not doing anything indicates it doesn't need to be gotten rid of for God to be God, in which case why get rid of it then if it doesn't seem to affect him? If it does affect him, and he doesn't do anything about it, then he can't and isn't all powerful.

Furthermore, if it does affect him, that means there is something greater than God that has a power that God doesn't. Again, omnipotence makes no sense if you look at sin like this.
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
Perhaps so, but as I pointed out in post 15:

"87% of Christians (91% of protestants) believe god is omniscient."​

Don't want to get on board with the rest of the team, that's your choice. In the mean time, considering that a huge majority of Christians believe god is omniscient, I'll take their belief as representative of Christians. Not yours. :)

.

One other thing, I have never been on board with them, I only go by what is Written and not by man's teachings and doctrines.
You know Christ Jesus condemn man's teachings and doctrines.
In Matthew 15:7-9.

So why would I want to follow what Christ Jesus condemn ????
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
One other thing, I have never been on board with them, I only go by what is Written and not by man's teachings and doctrines.
I assume then that

The trinity is out.
We are saved by faith alone is out
Jesus died to pay the penalty for our sins is out
The Bible is inerrant is out
Only Christians can be saved is out
Sunday as the Sabbath is out
Marriage Is only between one man and one woman is out
"God works in mysterious ways” is out
“Cleanliness is next to Godliness” is out
"We three kings of orient are . . . ." is out

So why would I want to follow what Christ Jesus condemn ????
So when he condemned Pharisees and scribes of his day he also meant to condemned all those who came after. Thousands of years after? Boy, I didn't see that mentioned at all.
.
 
Last edited:

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
God knew we would sin due to our free will. As such we were "predestined" to sin. However that does not eliminate free will because predestined does not mean predetermined.
It means we are set up to fail. If that is so, how can we be rightfully held accountable?
 

Oeste

Well-Known Member
Your assertion brought up a legal principal, so I'd like to bring one up also:

Ignorantia juris non excusat
gnorantia legis neminem excusat

This is a legal principle holding that a person who is unaware of a law may not escape liability for violating that law merely because one was unaware of its content.

Why?

If ignorance were an excuse, a person charged with criminal offenses or a subject of a civil lawsuit would merely claim that one was unaware of the law in question to avoid liability, even if that person really does know what the law in question is. Thus, the law imputes knowledge of all laws to all persons within the jurisdiction no matter how transiently. Even though it would be impossible, even for someone with substantial legal training, to be aware of every law in operation in every aspect of a state's activities, this is the price paid to ensure that willful blindness cannot become the basis of exculpation (that is, to not only exonerate, but to claim the accused should never have been charged in the first place).

The doctrine assumes that the law in question has been properly promulgated—published and distributed. That is, that the law is not a “secret law” which is no law at all. (source Black’s Law Dictionary, Wikipedia)

You are, in effect, arguing the “knowledge of good and evil” was a “secret law” (which of course is no law at all) that Adam and Eve couldn't possibly understand.

In Genesis the law was properly promulgated to Adam and Eve by God Himself. Neither Adam nor Eve had to experience, come in contact, or be enthralled by evil to know eating of the fruit was a violation of the law. They simply had to know the law.

With this in mind we can move on:

Say you're in a country where you don't know the language. The words "kerfuf," predudle," and "lieudodo" are meaningless. Someone tells you not to predudle or lieudodo because you would kerfuf. Now predudle and llieudodo are down right appealing, and you wonder why you shouldn't predudle or lieudodo. Then someone else comes along and tells you, "Hey predudle and lieudodo are great! That other guy who told you shouldn't do them is bonkers. Go ahead and predudle and lieudodo." So you go ahead and predudle and lieudodo. Unfortunately, the first guy was right, you kerfuf, and big time too.

Point being A&E had no idea what they had been told.

Adam and Eve are not in a garden where they don’t know the language. In fact, Adam and Eve are in a world where they created the language. Every bush, tree, and animal were marked and named by them.

Adam and Eve were not ignorant of language or what it meant not to eat of the tree. They were given dominion over every tree, bush and animal save one. There is absolutely no indication that Adam misunderstood God or His command. When God said “Do not eat of the tree…” I see no indication that Adam heard “Do not liedodo of the predudle” or anything similar.

Think A&E knew what knowledge of good and knowledge of evil (predudle, and lieudodo) were? Why should they?

They already had knowledge of good because they were made in God’s image. They didn’t need to know what evil was. All they had to know was the law…and that law stated they should not eat this particular tree’s fruit.

Your assertion implies Adam did not know “good” until he got it from the tree. That is incorrect. Adam knew good but did not know evil. The source of good is not the tree. The source of good is God.

They had just been created moments ago. So, with absolutely no clue as to what they were told, why should they be held accountable?

And yet they had an ability to converse with God and understand His commands. :

“Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?”

2 The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’”​

The woman confirmed to the serpent she understood the law, so I see no breakdown in communication or language here, so I see no basis for the assertion the law was meaningless because Adam and Eve didn’t understand it.

Let's remember Adam was not a two year old and neither was Eve. They were formed as man and woman, not boy and girl.

Your assertion would be valid had God condemned squirrels because they had eaten the fruit off the tree. I don't see that for Adam and Eve.

In criminal law uninformed consent works much the same way. If one consents to sometime but doesn't have a clear appreciation and understanding of the facts, implications, and consequences of the action they're consenting to, they're not held liable for it. They lacked proper information.

Not entirely correct... ignorance may help mitigate the consequences of an action but it doesn’t excuse the action. For why, see above.

And from the way the story goes in Genesis, this was the case with A&E and the apple incident.

Then we can all rest assured in the knowledge our judge and God had a mitigation plan culminating in Christ. It’s the “good news” promulgated by Christians worldwide since the 1st century. It does not require us to become automatons, but like Adam and Eve, simply requires our free will choice.
 

Oeste

Well-Known Member
If it results in sin coming into existence, then he created something he cannot control.

Sin did not come into existence...it already existed. Sin was allowed to enter the world:

Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned-- (Romans 5:12)

Sin is something God allows but it is never beyond His control.

Unless God willed sin into existence? Sin must be something outside of God, right? Then how is God omnipresent?

Sin is the state we are in when we operate outside the will of God. Since sin is not a physical entity occupying time and space it would be a mistake to characterize it as if it were.

Sin does not affect God's omnipresence.
 

Oeste

Well-Known Member
It means we are set up to fail. If that is so, how can we be rightfully held accountable?

12 Blessed is the one who perseveres under trial because, having stood the test, that person will receive the crown of life that the Lord has promised to those who love him.
13 When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;
14 but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed.
15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.

16Don’t be deceived, my dear brothers and sisters.
17 Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.
18 He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created. (James 1)​

I disagree...we were set up to win. We not only have free choice but we have our victory through Christ.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
You are, in effect, arguing the “knowledge of good and evil” was a “secret law” (which of course is no law at all) that Adam and Eve couldn't possibly understand.
Nope. I didn't argue that there was any law at all. All I said in reference to law was:

"In criminal law uninformed consent works much the same way. "​

There's a difference between "much in the same way" and " the same way." And there's a huge difference between ignorance of the law, and the impossibility to know what the "law" is---essentially Black's “secret law”---which was the case with A&E.


In fact, Adam and Eve are in a world where they created the language.
Come on now, Oeste. Even you don't buy this one. :rolleyes:


The woman confirmed to the serpent she understood the law,
Aside from the fact that god's instruction didn't amount to law, the only thing that Eve understood was that he didn't want her to eat the apple because it would result in her kerfuf.


They already had knowledge of good because they were made in God’s image.
Nah, you can't pick and choose to what degree they were made in god’s image:

They were were made in God’s image so as to understand all the words he used.

But they were NOT made in God’s image so as to understand what is right action and what is wrong action.

If they understood what is right action and what is wrong action, then having the wisdom of god "because they were made in God’s image," they wouldn't have eaten the apple. BUT THEY DID. So, either they were created wholly in god's image or they weren't created in god's image at all. The Bible doesn't qualify the creation, and neither can you.

So your choice here: created in god's image or not? ;)

.
 

Oeste

Well-Known Member
Nope. I didn't argue that there was any law at all. All I said in reference to law was:

"In criminal law uninformed consent works much the same way. "
There's a difference between "much in the same way" and " the same way." And there's a huge difference between ignorance of the law, and the impossibility to know what the "law" is; which was the case with A&E.

But there was the law. The law was God's commandment not to eat of the tree. How can you say there was no law when there was?

And the LORD God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden..." Genesis 2:16​

You then argue "In criminal law uninformed consent works much the same way."

We are discussing three laws now. God's law not to eat of the fruit and your citation of uninformed consent which you state works much the same way, and my citation of Ignorantia juris non excusat
which I also believe works much the same way.

Let's continue...

Come on now, Oeste. Even you don't buy this one :rolleyes:

Haven't we been discussing the Genesis account? :rolleyes:

If I'm not mistaken, it was man who named all the beasts and creatures of the earth. Is my account of Genesis mistaken?

Since it was man, not God, that named the beasts and trees, on what basis does one claim there was a communication problem? Did Adam not know a tree from a kerfuf?

It really does sound like an idle objection, but in all fairness that could be my Christian bias.

Aside from the fact that god's instruction didn't amount to law, the only thing that Eve understood was that he didn't want her to eat the apple because it would result in her kerfuf.

I'm not following you here. Is it your assertion that God's instructions don't amount to laws but suggestions?

This might be true for skeptics, but it's never been true for Christians.

Nah, you can't pick and choose to what degree they were made in god’s image:

They were were made in God’s image so as to understand all the words he used.

They were NOT made in God’s image so as to understand what is right action and what is wrong action.

Scripture please?

When you give verbal instruction to a squirrel there's a good chance he's not going to understand. Why you extend that to Adam and Eve is beyond me, especially when you just stated "They were made in God's image so as to understand all the word he used."

Earlier, (above in bold red), you mentioned "...the impossibility of what the "law" is; which was the case with A&E", and here you state they were made in God's image so as to understand all the words he used.

So if they understood all the words that He used, how can you then state it was impossible for them to understand they shouldn't eat of the fruit? Did they not understand the words He used?

You will need to elaborate your position more.

If they understood what is right action and what is wrong action, then having the wisdom of god "because they were made in God’s image," they wouldn't have eaten the apple. BUT THEY DID.

They absolutely did, but I think you're so close to the forest you do not see the tree. I'll address this in my next post tomorrow since it's very late, nearly 2 am and I have to work tomorrow.

But since I see your argument and the skeptics as mostly the same, I'll address it to all of you.

So, either they were created wholly in god's image or they weren't created in god's image at all. The Bible doesn't qualify the creation, and neither can you.

You present me with a false dichotomy. We were certainly created in God's image but were never created as Gods. There is a great gulf between God and His creation as clearly delineated in scripture and by our own current actions back through history. As such, I think the difference between God and his creation was and has been fully qualified.
 

tempogain

Member
I touched on “overall character” a little. The way we are inclined, being imperfect, is not the way A&E were. They were created perfect. Remember that God only told them they would die, if they ate from that tree, ie., stole from him? IOW, they never would have died....they would’ve stayed perfect....still alive today! (That’s why the Bible describes them as living (at least Adam) into their 900’s! And their offspring for the next several generations. And the life spans gradually shortened.)

I understand what you're saying. It's possible. It doesn't seem like the most obvious interpretation of the story as it's presented though (as I've touched on). Looking at Genesis a bit, I note it doesn't say we were made "perfect". It says we were made by God "in our image". That doesn't mean like God in every way however, or we would be essentially equivalent to God. Genesis 3:22 says "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil." This only raises more questions for me. I guess "perfect" means "perfect as long as they followed one rule" essentially. That that was a significant flaw is clearly apparent.

Listen, I gotta go, but I appreciate your willingness to discuss this reasonably, without the ad homs that I’m so used to hearing.

I will be back.

I look forward to that. Me as well, I enjoy talking and thinking about these topics and I try to keep an open mind. I'm of the opinion that we all may have our own beliefs and we don't all need to share the same ones. It's always a pleasure finding a corner of the internet where thoughtful conversation about them is possible.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
But there was the law. The law was God's commandment not to eat of the tree. How can you say there was no law when there was?

And the LORD God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden..." Genesis 2:16​

You then argue "In criminal law uninformed consent works much the same way."

We are discussing three laws now. God's law not to eat of the fruit and your citation of uninformed consent which you state works much the same way, and my citation of Ignorantia juris non excusat
which I also believe works much the same way.
Sorry, but I don't buy your equivocation.


If I'm not mistaken, it was man who named all the beasts and creatures of the earth. Is my account of Genesis mistaken?

Since it was man, not God, that named the beasts and trees, on what basis does one claim there was a communication problem? Did Adam not know a tree from a kerfuf?

It really does sound like an idle objection, but in all fairness that could be my Christian bias.
Assigning names isn't constructing a language. Besides, god had already established a language.


Skwim said:
Nah, you can't pick and choose to what degree they were made in god’s image:

They were were made in God’s image so as to understand all the words he used.

They were NOT made in God’s image so as to understand what is right action and what is wrong action.

Scripture please?
It isn't scripture, but the two alternatives you are trying to establish as compatible.


Earlier, (above in bold red), you mentioned "...the impossibility of what the "law" is; which was the case with A&E", and here you state they were made in God's image so as to understand all the words he used.

So if they understood all the words that He used, how can you then state it was impossible for them to understand they shouldn't eat of the fruit? Did they not understand the words He used?

You will need to elaborate your position more.
Okay. In short, my point:

You claim god made A&E in his own image, presumably with the ability to understand everything he said, yet you also contend that despite being made in god's image this did not include the ability to make the right choice: not eat the apple. I'm saying you can't have it both ways because nowhere is it indicated that god qualified his making of A&E in his image: that he made them only partially in his image. And you can't cherry pick which elements of his image A&E received and which of them they didn't.

You present me with a false dichotomy.
And one of your own making. I simply pointed it out.

We were certainly created in God's image but were never created as Gods.
And I never suggested as much. Let's avoid strawman arguments.

.
 
Last edited:

Glaurung

Denizen of Niflheim
I'm asking you, Christians who regard god as omniscient, why do you think god created mankind if he knew man would sin"?
Magnanimity.

The only reasonable answer I can come up with is that he did know, and wanted it that way. God created mankind as a form of entertainment. It's flaws and all adding to the drama.
Though the evil which God permits he brings about the greater good. No crown without the cross.

Ultimately it is not until history has played out and every person who has ever lived is summoned body and soul before God will we have any true grasp of the greater cosmic picture. It's simply an article of faith that God knows a little more than we do.

But if you'd have it that you do indeed know better than God you'd hardly be the first. When they came to be tested, one third of the angelic host decided on that same thing.
 
Last edited:

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
I assume then that

The trinity is out.
We are saved by faith alone is out
Jesus died to pay the penalty for our sins is out
The Bible is inerrant is out
Only Christians can be saved is out
Sunday as the Sabbath is out
Marriage Is only between one man and one woman is out
"God works in mysterious ways” is out
“Cleanliness is next to Godliness” is out
"We three kings of orient are . . . ." is out


So when he condemned Pharisees and scribes of his day he also meant to condemned all those who came after. Thousands of years after? Boy, I didn't see that mentioned at all.
.

If it's not written in the Bible, Then I don't follow it.
If God is omniscience as people say God is, Then where is it written at in the Bible ?

I have done my research and found nothing in the Bible and have found nothing about God as being omniscient, As other Christians will say God is.

Like I said, if it's not written in the Bible , I do not follow, Just because people will say things.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
I disagree...we were set up to win. We not only have free choice but we have our victory through Christ.
If you leave a steak on the floor in room, and leave it with a dog, it is the dog's fault for having ate the steak when you return, or your fault for not doing something when you reasonably know what the outcome will be?
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
If you leave a steak on the floor in room, and leave it with a dog, it is the dog's fault for having ate the steak when you return, or your fault for not doing something when you reasonably know what the outcome will be?


First where's the proof that God knew beforehand that Adam and Eve took of the tree of knowledge of good and evil ?
 
Top