"Why Did God Create Mankind if He Knew Man Would Sin?"

[The Emperor of Mankind]

It's a cynical but reasonable conclusion.

God knew we would sin and that His creation, through free will, would become defective. So why would He create us anyway?

Ask any mother who knows her baby will be born defective but refuses to even consider an abortion. God decided to have us because He loved us.

He also knows the outcome, so apparently we're well worth the effort.

Loves us enough to subject us to eternal torture if we don't accept that he sacrificed himself to himself in order to cure us from the sin he created us with?

With a god like this what need have we for enemies?

 

[robocop (actually)]

Wandering around Answers in Genesis again I came across the question above. Not unexpectedly, AiG's reply tiptoed around the question and never did address it. So, I'm asking you, Christians who regard god as omniscient, why do you think god created mankind if he knew man would sin"?

The only reasonable answer I can come up with is that he did know, and wanted it that way. God created mankind as a form of entertainment. It's flaws and all adding to the drama.

.

The answer to your question is in the fruit tree yielding fruit. God wanted a tree made of fruit bark yielding fruit but didn't get it, just like the 10 sephirim of God were supposed to be made linear in the Universe but ended up being placed in two columns.

Essentially the Universe has a task but it can only do it so well depending on, I guess you could say, chance.

 

[Ponder This]

Wandering around Answers in Genesis again I came across the question above. Not unexpectedly, AiG's reply tiptoed around the question and never did address it. So, I'm asking you, Christians who regard god as omniscient, why do you think god created mankind if he knew man would sin"?

The only reasonable answer I can come up with is that he did know, and wanted it that way. God created mankind as a form of entertainment. It's flaws and all adding to the drama.

.

I don't know about a strictly Christian answer to that question... but an answer sometimes offered is that God created man because He desired to be known.
Regarding sin, maybe you think God shouldn't have made man because He knew man would sin or maybe you think it's a game that God is playing.
But as Alfred Lord Tennyson once said "In Memoriam A.H.H." (the poem originally titled "The Way of the Soul"):

'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.​

In this poem, Alfred Lord Tennyson puts forth the idea that despite whatever happens existence is better than non-existence. So, perhaps, by giving breath to man, God gives us a precious gift that transcends the apparent errors that occur. Well, you can decide for yourself if life is worth living despite its problems.

 

[Skwim]

I don't know about a strictly Christian answer to that question... but an answer sometimes offered is that God created man because He desired to be known.

In other words, god doesn't really care that he created sinful creatures as long as they recognize his existence. Interesting.

Regarding sin, maybe you think God shouldn't have made man because He knew man would sin or maybe you think it's a game that God is playing.

I'm not thinking of any kind of shoulds or shouldn'ts.

So, perhaps, by giving breath to man, God gives us a precious gift that transcends the apparent errors that occur.

So having sins isn't that big of a deal anyway. Hmm. . . . Evidently he changed his mind, sending his only begotten son to die for them and all.


.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Does this really change that situation? God surely knew what kind of beings he had created and what we were capable of. It can't just have been a random creation of some kind of higher sentient being, one as good as the other? And we'll just see what happens, good laughs all around? He had to know there would be a lot of "badness". I could accept that he could suspend his awareness regarding individuals. But there's no way he couldn't have known the big picture, without being equally "unforgivably" random. If that were true, couldn't things even have ended up considerably worse? Still, you can see I put unforgivably in quotes. I'm on the fence about the whole thing. I don't think God can escape his responsibility for badness in this world. But, there's a lot of goodness. A world without anything bad is almost unimaginable to me. Ultimately, I have no way of knowing if things could really be more "perfect". I tend strongly to think they could though. While that is not a main cause for my atheism, it doesn't really do anything to convince me otherwise

Hope you're enjoying the playoffs by the way. Unless you're from Pittsburgh or Tampa

Hey, tempogain! I hope you’re well.


Let’s see if I can continue this conversation in a way that makes sense. (I do much better talking to people face to face!)


The Bible God (who I call Jehovah, Psalms 83:18) is described, not only as the Creator, but also as a loving Person.


When we read about A&E in Genesis, even though the account is short, we can conclude that God wasn’t ‘watching their every move.’ They weren’t given a lot of laws to prohibit them from doing things. In fact, they had only one prohibitive law: don’t eat from that one tree. (It’s not like there were only two trees; there were many. Genesis 2:16) God required this one easy-to-follow Law, to establish His right to govern them, being their Creator.


The other laws, if you want to call them that, were enjoyable, to procreate (Genesis 1:28...that’s fun) and to take care of the Garden (Genesis 2:15...enjoyable, fulfilling work). No doubt eventually to extend Paradise Earthwide.


And there was nothing to bring them fear! That’s obvious, when we see Eve going straight up to a snake! It was talking to her, and she was curious (it was talking!), but not fearful at all! Even the animals, at that time, (because Jehovah’s spirit and blessing was on the Earth), were at peace with humans and with each other. It will be, again...Cf. Isaiah 11:6-9 (I know, I know...carnivorous animals have teeth made for tearing, and claws for stripping, yes? But these could’ve been used for scavenging and consuming dead carcasses, or for eating heavy vegetation.)


And apparently, it was always pleasant weather...they were going around naked! (The Bible states that it didn’t even rain, at that time!) It was a perfect home.


Now, why should God expect something, or someone, to go wrong? Everyone was happy and had all they needed, even the angels who apparently had been around for millions of years...they were there when God created the Earth! (Job 38:7; I’m not a YEC.) They had established a long record of being faithful.


Another point: we don’t completely know what a perfect human is like....we’re all inclined to selfishness....but we have an idea, by reading about Jesus. Never did he give in to selfishness., even being around all the imperfect, selfish people...all that temptation...he never sinned! (Remember, God was the source of Jesus’ life, not Adam).


So, unlike us who have inherited selfish tendencies from out forefather Adam, perfect people are inclined to do good, and be obedient!


God, being loving and respectful of His intelligent creation, allows our thoughts to be our own.


Keeping this in mind, in Genesis 3:1-6, we’re told of a Serpent (really being used, like a dummy by a ventriloquist...this was the Devil, per John 8:44 and Revelation 12:9), who called Jehovah a liar, and called into question that issue of sovereignty, the right to rule: can man rule himself, or does he need God’s guidance? (You can see that for yourself, reading the account...it’s right there, but easy to miss if you’re not thinking about it.)


Adam could have refused. At the very least, he should have asked God about it. Unfortunately, by Adam joining in the rebellion, it gave life to the issue. Now, what should God do?


These links will explain it better than me (some points may overlap, though):

Comfort for Those Who Suffer — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

Are You Disappointed in God? — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY


And once this issue is settled, it will never be allowed a “foothold” again!


Take care.

 

[Faithofchristian]

Wandering around Answers in Genesis again I came across the question above. Not unexpectedly, AiG's reply tiptoed around the question and never did address it. So, I'm asking you, Christians who regard god as omniscient, why do you think god created mankind if he knew man would sin"?

The only reasonable answer I can come up with is that he did know, and wanted it that way. God created mankind as a form of entertainment. It's flaws and all adding to the drama.

.

Who said God knew man would sin, There's nothing written that said God knew man would sin.

Why did God create mankind, We are to find out the difference between God's truth and the lies of Satan's.

 

[BilliardsBall]

My thoughts are probably due to a religious edict and social pressure to reproduce.

L-O-V-E.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

L-O-V-E.

Marriage, and subsequently reproduction, for this idea of love is a modern concept. Some places even still practice arranged marriages.

 

[Oeste]

Interesting answers, Oeste! You are a thinker!
Take care, friend.

It appears the skeptics are running amok again and though we may have different arguments and perspectives at least we're on the same side of the fence. Good to hear from you!

 

[Oeste]

If god knew we would sin there was no free will involved with sin because we didn't freely chose to sin but rather was predestined to sin.

God knew we would sin due to our free will. As such we were "predestined" to sin. However that does not eliminate free will because predestined does not mean predetermined.

 

[Oeste]

Loves us enough to subject us to eternal torture if we don't accept that he sacrificed himself to himself in order to cure us from the sin he created us with?

With a god like this what need have we for enemies?

Man was not created with sin. It was a free will choice that allowed sin to enter the world.

 

[Windwalker]

God knew we would sin and that His creation, through free will, would become defective. So why would He create us anyway?

Ask any mother who knows her baby will be born defective but refuses to even consider an abortion. God decided to have us because He loved us.

He also knows the outcome, so apparently we're well worth the effort.

So you're saying God had some genetic defect inherent in his creation beyond his control? Where does Omnipotence fit in here?

 

[tempogain]

Hey, tempogain! I hope you’re well.

Quite well, thanks! Hope you're well too.

Let’s see if I can continue this conversation in a way that makes sense.

Well, you certainly have. I understand everything you say, and I appreciate you doing so in such detail. I have some problems with it though, both towards this specific conception of Genesis (which I'm not unfamiliar with really) and the more general theme. I'll talk about the specific first.

When we read about A&E in Genesis, even though the account is short, we can conclude that God wasn’t ‘watching their every move.’ They weren’t given a lot of laws to prohibit them from doing things. In fact, they had only one prohibitive law: don’t eat from that one tree. (It’s not like there were only two trees; there were many. Genesis 2:16) God required this one easy-to-follow Law, to establish His right to govern them, being their Creator.

I don't think you have truly addressed my argument from my last post. In the story God created man, and in my view, he had to have some idea of our overall character as humans. We cannot have been a random creation, surely. And who do we seem to be from what we know? We are not creatures predisposed to blind obedience. We are creatures of curiosity. Limits do not stand easy with us. We always seek to push against them and find out what lies behind, even it it seems highly probable that trouble will result. I hope you get my drift here. So we are placed in the garden, and ONE TREE is left off limits to us. Beyond this, God must have been aware that there was another intelligence at play, who might possibly lead us astray (and did not waste any time in trying to do so). Unsurprisingly in my view, this combination of circumstances lead to the rule being broken in the very first generation of humanity in the garden, apparently within a very short time. This lends support to my view that our inquisitiveness is part of the deepest nature of humanity, and not some result of "the fall". So, who's ultimately to blame? Were we ever those "perfect people"? Apparently not. If it takes the son of God himself to realize our perfection, that surely must be understood to God as well.

Please let me be clear, in my view man gets all the blame for the bad he does and all the credit for the good. I don't think that view is necessarily inconsistent with theism. I could be comfortable with a God who has given us this set of circumstances as they are. I'm not seeking to apportion blame here. But, if it is suggested that man takes all the blame and God gets all the credit, I feel compelled to speak up.

And that is a big problem I have with Christianity, if that idea is part of the package. To me, it's unfair at the core, and anything built on it is suspect. But that's me.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

I don't think you have truly addressed my argument from my last post. In the story God created man, and in my view, he had to have some idea of our overall character as humans. We cannot have been a random creation, surely. And who do we seem to be from what we know? We are not creatures predisposed to blind obedience. We are creatures of curiosity. Limits do not stand easy with us. We always seek to push against them and find out what lies behind, even it it seems highly probable that trouble will result. I hope you get my drift here. So we are placed in the garden, and ONE TREE is left off limits to us. Beyond this, God must have been aware that there was another intelligence at play, who might possibly lead us astray (and did not waste any time in trying to do so). Unsurprisingly in my view, this combination of circumstances lead to the rule being broken in the very first generation of humanity in the garden, apparently within a very short time. This lends support to my view that our inquisitiveness is part of the deepest nature of humanity, and not some result of "the fall". So, who's ultimately to blame? Were we ever those "perfect people"? Apparently not. If it takes the son of God himself to realize our perfection, that surely must be understood to God as well.

Please let me be clear, in my view man gets all the blame for the bad he does and all the credit for the good. I don't think that view is necessarily inconsistent with theism. I could be comfortable with a God who has given us this set of circumstances as they are. I'm not seeking to apportion blame here. But, if it is suggested that man takes all the blame and God gets all the credit, I feel compelled to speak up.

And that is a big problem I have with Christianity, if that idea is part of the package. To me, it's unfair at the core, and anything built on it is suspect. But that's me.

You ask excellent questions!

I touched on “overall character” a little. The way we are inclined, being imperfect, is not the way A&E were. They were created perfect. Remember that God only told them they would die, if they ate from that tree, ie., stole from him? IOW, they never would have died....they would’ve stayed perfect....still alive today! (That’s why the Bible describes them as living (at least Adam) into their 900’s! And their offspring for the next several generations. And the life spans gradually shortened.)

That alone makes them (the first part of their lives) different from us.They lost their perfect genetic condition....yes, imperfection not only affected their character, it affected their genetics, too....and they couldn’t pass on what they themselves lost. Eventually, they succumbed to sickness and death, like we all do.

Interesting that the Bible, in many places, attributes sickness and death to our sinful nature. Isaiah 33:24 does, in an indirect way.

Listen, I gotta go, but I appreciate your willingness to discuss this reasonably, without the ad homs that I’m so used to hearing.

I will be back.

 

[Windwalker]

I'm glad you aren't in charge

I think the reasoable answer is that He knew that time on earth is short and He is the Redeemer and eternity with Him is long.

We have babies knowing they will fall short too! But we have them anyways because the good outways the bad.

So God had no control of his creation at the time he designed it, or was it out of control the second he made everything, meaning he's not omnipotent and subject to the forces of nature beyond himself the same as us?

 

[Skwim]

Who said God knew man would sin, There's nothing written that said God knew man would sin.

It falls under his omniscience.

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[The Emperor of Mankind]

Man was not created with sin. It was a free will choice that allowed sin to enter the world.

Ah, but if Yahweh is omniscient then Adam & Eve were put in a situation where they were expected to 'fail'. I put 'fail' in quote marks because there's no reasonable way they could have passed this 'test'. Yahweh put the tree in the garden knowing that if he did so Adam & Eve would eat of the fruit - the tree was deliberately put there so they would eat from it. Further, the tree was the Tree of Knowledge of Good & Evil. Prior to eating of this, A & E could not have made moral choices or actively 'obeyed' or 'disobeyed' as they had no concept of right & wrong.

Oh and if your god knows what we will do before we do it then there is no choice and the Universe is deterministic. Omniscience & 'free will' are anathema to one another.

 

[Oeste]

So you're saying God had some genetic defect inherent in his creation beyond his control?

Not at all. I do not consider free will a defect beyond His control.

God has free will and we are made in His image. I suppose God could have created us as automatons, incapable of choice, but I'm thankful He created us with free will.

Where does Omnipotence fit in here?

As a characteristic of God.

 

[Oeste]

Ah, but if Yahweh is omniscient then Adam & Eve were put in a situation where they were expected to 'fail'. I put 'fail' in quote marks because there's no reasonable way they could have passed this 'test'. Yahweh put the tree in the garden knowing that if he did so Adam & Eve would eat of the fruit - the tree was deliberately put there so they would eat from it.

Yes they would eat of it, but they had a choice not to. That is free will.

Further, the tree was the Tree of Knowledge of Good & Evil. Prior to eating of this, A & E could not have made moral choices or actively 'obeyed' or 'disobeyed' as they had no concept of right & wrong.

If they could not "actively 'obeyed' or 'disobeyed' " then God would not have bothered to tell them not to eat from the tree.

You are forgetting how Adam and Eve were made:

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. And God blessed them.." (Genesis 1: 16-28)

​

Mankind was not made it the image of squirrels who have no moral compass but in the image of God who does. We were made in "our image, after our likeness" and neither His image or likeness is evil.

At this point Adam knows good...it's not something that he had to get from a tree.

What Adam got from the tree was the "knowledge of good and evil", that is the opening of their eyes to sin. This was not something forced on them by God, but a free choice made by both Adam and Eve.

Oh and if your god knows what we will do before we do it then there is no choice and the Universe is deterministic.

I'm not following you here. I'm trying to lose 10 pounds but just decided to eat some cookies that were better left on the shelf. Since I did that of my own free will, how did the Universe determine my actions?

I'll go further. I knew I was going to eat the cookies before I ate them. The does not mean the universe became deterministic of my actions, it simply means I decided to exercise my free will.

Omniscience & 'free will' are anathema to one another.

Not in Christian theology. God has both and neither are anathema.

 

[Skwim]

Yes they would eat of it, but they had a choice not to. That is free will.

Say you're in a country where you don't know the language. The words "kerfuf," predudle," and "lieudodo" are meaningless. Someone tells you not to predudle or lieudodo because you would kerfuf. Now predudle and llieudodo are down right appealing, and you wonder why you shouldn't predudle or lieudodo. Then someone else comes along and tells you, "Hey predudle and lieudodo are great! That other guy who told you shouldn't do them is bonkers. Go ahead and predudle and lieudodo." So you go ahead and predudle and lieudodo. Unfortunately, the first guy was right, you kerfuf, and big time too.

Point being A&E had no idea what they had been told.

Gen. 2:15-17
15 The Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to till it and keep it. 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “You may freely eat of every tree of the garden; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die.”

Gen. 3:
3 Now the serpent was more subtle than any other wild creature that the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God say, ‘You shall not eat of any tree of the garden’?” 2 And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden; 3 but God said, ‘You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.’” 4 But the serpent said to the woman, “You will not die. 5 For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” 6 So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate; and she also gave some to her husband, and he ate. 7 Then the eyes of both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves aprons.​

Think A&E knew what knowledge of good and knowledge of evil (predudle, and lieudodo) were? Why should they? They had just been created moments ago. Think they knew what it means to die (kerfuf)? Why should they? They had just been created moments ago. So, with absolutely no clue as to what they were told, why should they be held accountable?

In criminal law uninformed consent works much the same way. If one consents to sometime but doesn't have a clear appreciation and understanding of the facts, implications, and consequences of the action they're consenting to, they're not held liable for it. They lacked proper information. And from the way the story goes in Genesis, this was the case with A&E and the apple incident.

.