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Featured Why death is a must?

Discussion in 'Evolution Vs. Creationism' started by FearGod, Nov 3, 2018.

  1. AdamRaja

    AdamRaja Islamic Philosopher

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    Gotta have both sides of the coin.
     
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  2. Vancouversailor

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    Good point Adam, without night how could we appreciate the lighting of a sunrise, without death we would devalue life.
     
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  3. David T

    David T Well-Known Member
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  4. Kelly of the Phoenix

    Kelly of the Phoenix Well-Known Member

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    Because our ancestors never evolved immortality?

    People can't deal with what they've got NOW. Making them drag out their horrible lives is just mean.

    You know what cells are when they don't stop growing? Cancer.

    And like Eos, we are learning that maybe immortality sucks.

    I can watch vids like that on Youtube, but clearly the world still kinda sucks.

    Doctors are just awful about not doing a proper equipment count after surgery. We once had to ship a new admission back to the surgeon because they just left the wires of a pacemaker hanging outside the body. Some surgeries might require consciousness, but usually it just means the person gassing you did a bad job.
     
  5. Samantha Rinne

    Samantha Rinne Active Member

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    Dude, if you read the Bible (or any scripture, really) you'd probably not need to ask this question.

    Adam and Eve were driven out before they could eat from the Tree of Life as a direct result of eating from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Now it could be that God didn't want humans too much like him, but I have a different theory.

    I believe God does intend for us as a species to eventually become ascendant. The problem is of course, that Knowledge of Good and Evil is a bear. Were we to suddenly become immortal, our massive insecurities, our jealousy, and our sense of our own flaws would drive us insane.

    I believe our souls are immortal (the concept of reincarnation), but until we are able to cope with eternity, we are given the ability to forget our eternal selves, to not be aware of what came before. This allows us to live lives and to learn and grow until we are ready.
     
  6. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Well-Known Member

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    I believe it will be a thousand year period but I do not believe that resurrection refers to bodies rising from graves to live on earth. Rather I believe it refers to a spiritual resurrection.

    I believe that process of spiritual resurrection began in 1852 with the Revelation of Baha’u’llah, who was the return of the Christ Spirit, and it will last no less than 1000 years.

    I do not interpret the Bible verses that refer to graves and resurrection as being physical graves or physical resurrection of bodies. By graves I believe is meant that when the Christ Spirit returns and some people will come forth from their graves and hear his voice, graves denoting awakening and hearkening to the call of God. Thus I believe that grave symbolizes being spiritually dead. Those that turn away from the Christ Spirit when He returns will not be resurrected; they will remain in their graves, spiritually dead. Others will be resurrected and arise from their graves and hasten to the divine presence.

    John 11: 23-24 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

    I do not interpret these verses literally. I believe that dead means spiritually dead and resurrection means spiritually resurrected. Thus I believe it means that when Christ returns (at the last day) those that turn towards Him will be spiritually resurrected; they will arise from their graves (from being spiritually dead) and hasten to the divine presence. Those who turn away from Christ will not be resurrected; they will remain in their graves, spiritually dead. The Day of God’s Revelation is the Day of the greatest Resurrection..

    But the important verses in that chapter are as follows:

    John 11:25-26 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

    Jesus is the resurrection, and the life, because whoever believes in Jesus will attain to everlasting life. His body will die, but his soul will continue on to the spiritual world (heaven) where he will be close to God. The rewards of the spiritual world are peace, the spiritual graces, various spiritual gifts, the gaining of the desires of the heart and the soul, and getting closer to God. Gaining these rewards is the gaining of eternal life.

    Christ said, John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. He meant that those who believed in Him would be “Born Again” and enter the kingdom of God on earth and in heaven, since we can be close to God both here and there.

    1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord....

    I do not interpret these verses literally. By asleep is meant spiritually asleep, spiritually dead, those who have no hope. God will bring those who are spiritually dead, at least some of them who hearken to His call. A cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God will be raised when the Christ Spirit returns and some people will come forth from their spiritual sleep and hear his voice, awakening and hearkening to the call of God. The dead in Christ in their graves symbolizes being spiritually dead. The verses of God will be revealed and those that turn away from them will not be resurrected; they will remain in their graves, spiritually dead. Others will be resurrected and arise from their graves and hasten to the divine presence.

    Then we who are alive, who are left, means spiritually alive, and they will be caught up together in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, means those people will be caught up and always be with the Lord in heaven... This is symbolic; it is not about literal clouds and literal air.
     
  7. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Well-Known Member

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    Interestingly, I just finished with a post that explains what I believe about the resurrection of the dead so you can go and read it and let me know if you have any questions: #46
    Where do you think it is located?
    Yes, I believe that all souls are immortal because they all continue to exist forever, but not every soul has eternal life. Eternal life is a quality of life, being close to God. Those souls who are veiled from God are as dead even though they continue to exist.

    “The immortality of the spirit is mentioned in the Holy Books; it is the fundamental basis of the divine religions. Now punishments and rewards are said to be of two kinds: first, the rewards and punishments of this life; second, those of the other world. But the paradise and hell of existence are found in all the worlds of God, whether in this world or in the spiritual heavenly worlds. Gaining these rewards is the gaining of eternal life. That is why Christ said, “Act in such a way that you may find eternal life, and that you may be born of water and the spirit, so that you may enter into the Kingdom.” 2
    Some Answered Questions, p. 223

    “Entrance into the Kingdom is through the love of God, through detachment, through holiness and chastity, through truthfulness, purity, steadfastness, faithfulness and the sacrifice of life.

    These explanations show that man is immortal and lives eternally. For those who believe in God, who have love of God, and faith, life is excellent—that is, it is eternal; but to those souls who are veiled from God, although they have life, it is dark, and in comparison with the life of believers it is nonexistence…..

    In the same way, the souls who are veiled from God, although they exist in this world and in the world after death, are, in comparison with the holy existence of the children of the Kingdom of God, nonexisting and separated from God.” Some Answered Questions, pp. 242-243

    I believe that all the verses below refer to eternal life of the soul, not life of the physical body.

    John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

    John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

    1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

    John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
    I can agree with that except that I do not think those souls would be destroyed. They would just be in a hell of their own making because they would not even want to be in heaven, given who they were when they died, owing to both their lack of belief and the lives they lived. This is something I have been reading about in a book entitled Heaven and Hell. It is not from the Baha’i Writings but it seems to make sense and it correlates with my religious beliefs regarding heaven and hell and why we get there.
    I am glad I am not the only one.... Join the crowd. Sometimes I think too much about these things. However, I am not well versed in the Bible because I was not raised a Christian and I was never much interested in religion until the last six years. So what I know of the Bible I have learned from Christians online and looking things up in the Bible online. I know certain verses and chapters pretty well, but I do not have the big picture.
    I do not believe that there will have to be another earth to accommodate bodies that rise from graves because I do not believe that is what will happen. I believe that bodies once dead remain dead and that the soul leaves the body when the body dies and goes to the spiritual world where it takes on a new body, a spiritual body comprised of heavenly elements that exist in the heavenly realm. Of course, from this material world vantage point and that being all we are familiar with, we cannot understand what the spiritual world will be like.

    I believe that the New Earth refers to a remake of this earth into a righteous earth where people will live forever in peace and harmony. This is often referred to as the Kingdom of God on earth, but Baha’is also refer to it as the new world order, which will replace the old world order we live in now.

    “This is the Day in which God’s most excellent favors have been poured out upon men, the Day in which His most mighty grace hath been infused into all created things. It is incumbent upon all the peoples of the world to reconcile their differences, and, with perfect unity and peace, abide beneath the shadow of the Tree of His care and loving-kindness. It behoveth them to cleave to whatsoever will, in this Day, be conducive to the exaltation of their stations, and to the promotion of their best interests. Happy are those whom the all-glorious Pen was moved to remember, and blessed are those men whose names, by virtue of Our inscrutable decree, We have preferred to conceal.

    Beseech ye the one true God to grant that all men may be graciously assisted to fulfil that which is acceptable in Our sight. Soon will the present-day order be rolled up, and a new one spread out in its stead. Verily, thy Lord speaketh the truth, and is the Knower of things unseen.”
    Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 6-7
    Absolutely. It is a state of the soul that is distant from God.
    It could never be that way though as long as we live in a physical world because there will always be disease and pain and struggle to survive in a physical world. In the spiritual world none of those will exist because the spiritual world brings only joy. The only suffering that exists in the spiritual world is mental torment, torment of the soul. That is what we call hell. Not only is hell distance from God but it is attachment to things of the physical world when they are no longer attainable, so people who are attached to the physical pleasures will be in hell when they are no longer available. All they will have is their memories of them and that will be hell. Hell would be like a man in jail who knows he is in for life, but even worse since jail has some amenities whereas hell doesn’t have any. Also, a life in prison ends at death but hell might have no end! It was no accident that the Bible says to live a righteous life and divest ourselves of the desires of the flesh. It is not only so we can live a moral life here but so we can prepare for the afterlife which is purely spiritual.
     
  8. viole

    viole Metaphysical Naturalist
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    To think? :)

    Ciao

    - viole
     
  9. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I didn't even know Isaiah 11th chapter, Isaiah 65th chapter, or even Isaiah 35th chapter was on Youtube.
    > 2 Timothy 3:1-5,13 like you, is saying clearly the world still kinda sucks.
    Sucks because of those individuals with their personalities have a litany of miserable attitudes and attributes.
    Such out-of-control people are responsible for earth's turmoil as mentioned at Matthew 24th chapter; Luke 21st Chapter.
    Now, it is to the point that mankind can Not dig himself out of today's earth's turmoil.
    That is why Matthew 24:14; Daniel 2:44 is about an 'alternate government' (God's Kingdom) coming to Earth.
    'Thy kingdom come' is asking for 'Jesus to come', come and bring Peace on Earth among people of goodwill.
     
  10. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    How could I be completely unaware of what is happen to the Earth now when that is exactly what the Bible teaches.
    > 2 Timothy 3:1-5,13 describes today's personalities with a litany of their miserable attitudes and traits.
    Their selfish distorted form of love is out of harmony with the definition of godly love as defined at 1 Corinthians 13:4-6.

    We see the rampant out-of-control turmoil on Earth today described at Matthew 24th chapter, Luke 21st Chapter.
    This is why Christians tell others about Matthew 24:14 is what Jesus taught is an alternate government - Daniel 2:44 - God's kingdom. Mankind at this point can't dig himself out of earth's turmoil.
    God is against those who are Not humble and do Not respect the natural world.
    God will bring to ruin those ruining the Earth according to Revelation 11:18 B.
    Kind of like if you had a beautiful house that became infested with rats, would you destroy your beautiful house or exterminate the rats. Humble people will remain -> Matthew 5:5; Psalms 37:9-11; Proverbs 2:21-11.
    So, Jesus, as Prince of Peace, will usher in global Peace on Earth among persons of goodwill (humble persons).
    The executional words from Jesus' mouth will rid the Earth of the haughty ones - Isaiah 11:3-4; Revelation 19:14-16.

    You might not be aware but a soon coming ' time of separation ' is to take place on Earth according to Matthew 25:31-33,37,40. Those figurative 'sheep'-like people are the humble people.
     
  11. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I am wondering what healthy person wants to pick the day they want to die.
    In Genesis the only way Adam could devalue life was to end it on purpose.
    God offered Adam 'everlasting life on Earth' if he did Not break God's Law.
    Jesus came to Not devalue life, but to undo all the damage Satan and Adam brought upon the human race.
    That is why ' enemy death ' will be brought to nothing on Earth - 1 Corinthians 15:26; Isaiah 25:8.
     
  12. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I find there were two sides of the coin at Genesis 2:17.
    Adam had two (2) choices presented before him:
    1) If Adam did Not break God's Law, Adam could live forever on a beautiful paradisical Earth with No death in view.
    2) Or, if Adam chose to break God's Law then Adam would die and return to the dust as per Genesis 3:19.
    To me, Jesus came to undo the death damage Satan and father Adam brought upon us by doing away with ' enemy death ' according to 1 Corinthians 15:26 in fullfillment to Isaiah 25:8.
    That is why we are all invited to pray the invitation of Revelation 22:20 for Jesus to come !
    Come and bring ' healing ' to earth's nations as mentioned at Revelation 22:2.
    Then, mankind on Earth will see the return of the Genesis "Tree of Life" for the healing of earth's nations.
     
  13. A Vestigial Mote

    A Vestigial Mote Well-Known Member

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    The processes our body undergoes to regenerate are imperfect to a specific degree that was determined along our ancestral lines via our evolution. Had we absolutely needed longer life-spans, then that would have been an environmental pressure causing those of us with the longest life-spans to procreate and pass on this "long-haul" configuration of genes. As it stands, we have almost no environmental pressures, and almost everyone lives, regardless of "fitness." So, we are evolving in a different way now, and, with no selection for longer life-span necessary, our life-spans will remain what they are, generally, with our regeneration capabilities seeing no tuning/change whatsoever.

    Other animals experienced the same sort of thing, but obviously ended up at different values of regeneration/life-span. Sea turtles for instance. Their life-span was probably necessitated by the fact that they live very isolated lives, and must return to one another during a mating season in order to procreate - and then after the baby turtles hatch, relatively few of them make it to the water, fewer still see adulthood. And so a long life-span is advantageous, as it allows the creature to come back to mate again and again, and get more turtles into the water by sheer brute force. We have no such "problems." And so our life-span was only augmented up to a point, historically, in order to meet the needs our ancestors had, until we no longer had pressures affecting this aspect of our "fitness" from generation to generation.
     
  14. Wild Fox

    Wild Fox Well-Known Member

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    With the way things are going no one will be able to live on this earth.
     
  15. Jollybear

    Jollybear Hey

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    Was Jesus after his crucifixion and tomb burial resurrected bodily on the third day in your view?

    I heard it could be the dead sea over in the middle east.

    But it could simply be the lava under earths crust.

    Can anyone in hell come out in your view?



    So, this new earth life, is that physical? I ask cause you said after death the soul goes on into the spirit world.

    Could this give a whole other meaning to demon posession? Souls in hell trying to gain this pleasure and the only way to get it is by jumping in a body?

    I heard a lady tell me once she got drunk and blacked out, but was told what she had done and she never remembered those parts from the black out. But she was not passed out.

    And some people black out in other ways too.

    No end? Boy, thats pretty long.

    Heres a verse showing Jesus rescued souls in hell.

    1 peter 3:18-20

    "18Christ sufferedd for our sins once for all time. He never sinned, but he died for sinners to bring you safely home to God. He suffered physical death, but he was raised to life in the Spirit.e

    19So he went and preached to the spirits in prison— 20those who disobeyed God long ago when God waited patiently while Noah was building his boat"

    Your thoughts?
     
  16. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Well-Known Member

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    As a Baha’is I do not believe that the body of Jesus rose from the grave but rather that the Cause of Christ was resurrected after three days when the disheartened disciples became assured and steadfast and arose to serve Jesus. In other words, the Cause of Christ was like a lifeless body until the life and the bounty of the Holy Spirit surrounded it. That is explained in more detail in this short chapter: 23: THE RESURRECTION OF CHRIST
    I think some can, but only if they want to. According to my beliefs, our existence and everything we have or ever will have is dependent upon the mercy of God and His bounty, and therefore God can accept anyone into heaven. People always have the hope of receiving God’s mercy if they reach out for it. The thing is that those who got to hell will probably not be reaching for God’s mercy and God gives them that choice to reject Him. So what it amounts to is that people create their own hell and they usually want to stay there since that is all they ever knew on earth. It is possible for them to advance by the prayers of others and the mercy of God.

    My biggest question is who ends up in hell... Is it just nonbelievers or is it evil people or both, and do all nonbelievers go to hell? It is difficult for me to think that all nonbelievers go to hell because so many of them are good people, they just do not believe in God for whatever reasons, and I do not think it is an intentional rejection of God.
    The new earth life I was referring to is physical. It is the world where people who are alive in a physical body will live in the future, the Kingdom of God on earth wherein there will be peace and tranquilly, harmony and unity between all people, regardless of race, creed, color, or religion, and righteousness, equity and justice will prevail for all.

    After the physical body dies, the souls of all people will go to the spiritual world. That is a separate world but it is within this world, kind of difficult to explain, but ask me later if you are interested.
    I don’t really know about demons. All I know is that the way that hell is described is not pretty. Ask me about it later if you want to know more. I have a depiction of it written by a spirit communicator who spoke with a departed soul.
    I do not know the Bible well enough to understand what al the verses mean and I don’t think there is anything definitive about heaven and hell in any scriptures, although people still ascribe meanings to verses and thing they know I do not think anyone actually knows. That is why I read non-scriptural sources. I think people can be rescued if they want to be, from what I have read, but they usually do not want to be if they were selfish people who are attached to the material world, which is what makes hell. However, I think that those who are sincere and want to change can be helped by angels.
     
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  17. Derek500

    Derek500 Wish I could change this to AUD

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    This one is funny.

    Cause reality.
     
  18. chinu

    chinu Businessman.

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    means "re-union" with from where we all started the journey of life in the beginning.
    Why? because..

    So that, you could realize that you aren't residing in the place of "Eternity"

    So that, you could seek an "Eternity"

    And that's what is happening right now :)
     
  19. Jollybear

    Jollybear Hey

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    So, the story of Jesus resurrection is spiritual and symbolic.

    How then do me distringuish WHEN the narative of his life is symbolic vs literal?

    For instance, king harod is part of the story, is he symbolic? Are the magi symbolic? The 12 apostles, are they symbolic? Simple things like Jesus meeting John the baptist to get baptized, is that symbolic? Is the crucifixion itself symbolic? We know paul the apostle talked about "crucify the fleshly desires". But does that make Jesus crucifixion not literal? The 2 theives crucified by his side, are they symbolic? Is the story of him throwing tables over in the temple symbolic? Is paul himself symbolic? Is JESUS himself symbolic? Is mary Magdalene who goes to the tomb and sees his body gone, is she symbolic?

    You see where im going here?

    So, while in hell, they try to cratify there earthly pleasures, but cant, since they got no body.

    When the kingdom of God comes on this earth, people will still grow old and die in that system though, yes?

    Is it sorta like a mirror reflection?

    Yes, do tell me?

    I think Near Death Experiences can give us a small glimps about how the afterlife works.

    NDEs are like a man that steps into the ocean and feels the water, but only experiences the shallow part up to his knees. He has never skuba dived down in the massive depths.
     
  20. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I understand what you are getting at. I do not know if King Herod or the Magi really existed but there is no reason to think they didn’t exist. There is no reason to think that the story of Jesus throwing tables over in the temple is symbolic. I believe that Jesus met John the Baptist and He got baptized and I believe that Jesus was crucified. I believe that the two thieves were crucified by His side. I do not know if Mary Magdalene actually went to the tomb and saw the body of Jesus gone but if she did that is because it was never there or it was moved, because I do not believe that Jesus rose from the grave.

    In short, there is no reason to question the literal interpretation of things that could have literally happened, as noted above, but some of these could be stories that did not actually happen. Is there any way to verify these stories?

    There is no reason to think that anything is symbolic unless it contradicts what is scientifically possible. Jesus rising from a grave and coming back to life after three days is scientifically impossible. Also, the physical body of Jesus floating up into the stratosphere and “living” in a place called heaven as we live here on earth is scientifically impossible. Also, Jesus coming down on a cloud in the same body He had when He died is scientifically impossible... In short, the reason that these events have to be symbolic is because they contradict the laws of physics.
    Yes, but they won’t try for long because they will soon realize that they have no physical body. Then if they were overly attached to things of the flesh such as sex, they will be in hell because they will realize they can never partake of it again. They will have a spiritual body but that has a spiritual purpose, so if they have not acquired spiritual qualities while living on earth, they will be like a child in the womb who did not acquire arms and legs needed in this world. They will be handicapped. It is easy to acquire these qualities in this world by living according to the teachings of Jesus, but once we enter the spiritual world we won’t have the free will we have here to improve our character. That is why it is so important to do that before we die.

    When the kingdom of God comes on this earth, people will still grow old and die in that system though, yes?

    Yes they will. It will be like it is now except all people will live in peace and harmony, and equity and justice will prevail. People will come to realize that we are all one human race rather than being divided from people who are different from them. Prejudice of all kinds, national, racial and religious, will be eliminated and we will all live together as one human family.

    “The utterance of God is a lamp, whose light is these words: Ye are the fruits of one tree, and the leaves of one branch. Deal ye one with another with the utmost love and harmony, with friendliness and fellowship. He Who is the Day Star of Truth beareth Me witness! So powerful is the light of unity that it can illuminate the whole earth. The one true God, He Who knoweth all things, Himself testifieth to the truth of these words.”
    Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 288

    Isaiah also foretold this great event in the future...

    Isaiah 11:6-9 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.

    What this means is that In the future diverse religions and races will become comrades, friends and companions. The contentions of races, the differences of religions, and the barriers between nations will be completely removed, and all will attain perfect union and reconciliation. Eventually, there will be only one religion, the religion of God and everyone will believe in God – “for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.”

    Jesus also foretold a day when mankind would be unified into one fold....:

    John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
    Yes, this material world is kind of like a reflection of the spiritual world, which is more real than this world.

    I don’t really know about demons. All I know is that the way that hell is described is not pretty. Ask me about it later if you want to know more. I have a depiction of it written by a spirit communicator who spoke with a departed soul.
    Below is an apt description of hell. You might be sorry you asked. :eek:

    “I have looked into hell! I may have to return to that region. I shall be given my choice. Grant that I may be strong enough to offer myself freely. Hell is a thought region. Evil dwells there and works out its purposes. The forces used to hold mankind down in the darkness of ignorance are generated in hell! It is not a place; it is a condition. The human race has created the condition. It has taken millions of years to reach its present state. I dare not tell you what I saw there.... At first I refused to go.... There was no life, no light there. One felt stagnation everywhere. The angel said that was the most insidious kind of hell, stagnation, because no one recognised it as such. Contrary to belief, hell itself, or rather that part of it visited by my brother and the angel, is brilliantly lighted. The light is coarse, artificial. It keeps out the light of God. In this awful glare the angel's light nearly lost its radiance.

    All this my brother told me afterwards. Those who die filled with thoughts of selfishness and sensuality are attracted down the grey avenues toward this hell of the senses.The darkness of the deep forests appalls, the loneliness is intense. At last, light is seen ahead. It is not the light of heaven, it is the lure of hell. These poor souls hasten onwards, though not toward destruction; there is no such thing. They hasten down into conditions that are the counterpart of their own interior condition. The Law is at work. This hell is a hell of the illusions and is itself an illusion. I find this hard to credit. Those who enter it are led to believe that the only realities are the sense passions and the beliefs of the human 'I'. This hell consists in believing the unreal to be real. It consists in the lure of the senses without the possibility of gratifying them. I was told a great deal more about this awful region, but I must not pass it on. The angel said that the 'condition' would ultimately dissolve into nothingness. Hell or apparently that part of it we are speaking about, depends for its existence on human thoughts and feelings. The race will never rise to greatness until the passions are controlled. This refers to nations and to individuals. On earth I was never interested in such matters. I did not realise the existence of the sexual canker at the heart of human life. What a terrible thing this is! Do not wait until you come over here. Set to work at once. There is no time to lose. Gain control of self. Then retain control by emptying yourself of self. All the thoughts of lust and passion, greed, hatred, envy, and, above all, selfishness, passing through the minds of men and women, generate the 'condition' called hell.

    Purgatory and hell are different states. We all must needs pass through a purging, purifying process after leaving earth life. I am still in purgatory. Some day I shall rise above it. The majority who come over here rise above or rather THROUGH purgatory into higher conditions. A minority refuse to relinquish their thoughts and beliefs in the pleasures of sin and the reality of the sense life. They sink by the weight of their own thoughts. No outside power can attract a man against his will. A man sinks or rises through the action of a spiritual law of gravity. He is never safe until he has emptied himself completely. You see how I emphasise this fact. Some of these thoughts came to me whilst I waited in that gloomy forest. Then the angel and my brother returned. They had found him for whom they sought. He would not come away. They had to leave him there. Fear held him. He said his existence was awful, but he was afraid to move lest worse conditions should befall him.” Private Dowding, pp. 32-35
    Yes, that is a good way of putting it. An NDE is just a small glimpse of what lies ahead in the great beyond, kind of like a preview or a waiting room before one goes in for major surgery!

    In an NDE one sees what it might be like to die, but he still has a chance to return to earth life, until he has gone past the rock wall, a symbol for the dividing line between earth and the spiritual world. One he crosses that wall, he can no longer return to earth life. People are often given a choice of crossing over or returning, and of course all those who lived to talk about the NDE made the choice to come back to earth.
     
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