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Why christians believe that jesus is God?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by ahmedhelmy, Jul 26, 2005.

  1. carlrave

    carlrave New Member

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    Hi Michel,

    Thank you for the warm welcome and encouragement!! I look forward to participating and won't hesitate to ask.:)
     
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  2. Ahmadi

    Ahmadi Member

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    Are you talking about this?

    How could you be sure of this? How could you be so sure that only Jesus Christ (as) was the 'begotten' son of God and all the other sons of God, meant in a different way? I'm confused....:(

    "Not mutually exclusive" - Hmmm... How so?
    "archetypal Man, the perfect heavenly Man" - who's this?
     
  3. Ahmadi

    Ahmadi Member

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    Well, welcome to the forum! But one problem that I have understanding is: Is it really a demonstration of the love of God when He sends His only begotten son to the world to be sacrificed when He has the Power to forgive man without the need of such suffering for His Son? It certainly doesn't seem like a congurnt way to show His love. Can you help me understand?:)

    And one more thing: I really don't think that this thread is "rambling". Try some other threads and then you will know what "rambling" really is.
     
  4. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    The thread is WAY rambling... it started out why CHRISTIANS believe, and everyone who is not a Christian seems compelled to answer. Maybe they should start their OWN thread about why they believe, and leave this one for the Christian view point.
     
  5. Ahmadi

    Ahmadi Member

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    I certainly agree that there are more than enough verses telling us that Jesus (as) came from heaven as you have already provided. However, you never responded to my question about Elijah and the prophecy that he will descend from Heaven because he was carried up into heaven in a chariot. I think that Elijah was not taken up into heaven literally and neither did Jesus (as) mean that he came directly from heaven. It was just a prophecy in metaphors, like most prophecies are, and Jesus kept repeating the words of the prophecy, as if in joy over the fulfillment of that prophecy.

    Oh, oops, another typo. I sincerely apologize. I would keep that in mind.




    You see here the word ‘bread’ actually refers to Jesus (John 6:35). In the same way, coming down from heaven refers to the prophecy about Elijah’s coming down from heaven. Jesus (as) came in fulfillment of that prophecy. (John 6:38).





    I don’t know why you presented all of these verses. I do accept Jehovah, or God, is in heaven. The only thing that I dispute with is that heaven can’t be in a confined place but that is not the subject of this debate. Sometimes, in visions, like in Revelation 4:2, God demonstrates a throne that represents Him but that doesn’t mean that there is a heaven up in outer space somewhere or that God is sitting in a throne in outer space….I am not sure whether I am understanding your point accurately…
     
  6. Ahmadi

    Ahmadi Member

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    This came up before but I didn't say anything. If you hadn't realized, the thread was started by a MUSLIM asking Christians to clarify their belief and have a constructive discussion with them. Let me quote it for you:
    Let me repeat: I also don't mean any offence to anyone. I respect everyone and every religion. In fact, I am trying to learn more about Christianity and asking these questions in posts has helped me alot.
     
  7. TashaN

    TashaN Veteran Member
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    * The Bible ascribes sons by the tons to God.

    1- " Which was the son of Enos, Which was the son of Seth, whicj was the son of Adam, which was the SON OF GOD." LUKE 3:38

    2- " That the SONS OF GOD saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took wives of all which they chose."
    " ... when the SONS OF GOD came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown." GENESIS 6:2 and 4

    3- " ... Thus saith the lord, Israel is MY SON even my FIRST BORN." EXODUS 4:22

    4- " ... and Ephraim is my FIRSTBORN. " JEREMIAH 31:9

    ( HOW CAN THERE BE TWO "FIRST BORNS" ? )

    5- " ... Thou ( O David ) ART MY SON; this day have I BEGOTTEN thee." PSALMS 2:7

    ( HOW CAN gOD BEGET DAVID AT THE AGE OF FORTY? "This day" ?

    6- " For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the SONS OF GODS." ROMANS 8:14


    do you still think Jesus was the only begotten Son of God ???
     
  8. carlrave

    carlrave New Member

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    Hi Ahmadi, Thank you for the welcome. Let me see if I can better explain what I meant by this. Let me know if it doesn't answer what you were wondering.

    Although I am not Biblical scholar this is what I have understood form reading the scriptures. The Old Testament, specifically Leviticus, outlines the rules and procedures for a sacrifice to receive atonement for sin. Leviticus chapter 4, specifically deals with this, and verses 1-4 outline the main prerequisites of the sacrifice, specifically being male and with-out blemish. These sacrifices allowed the forgiveness of sin and the restoration of one's position with God.

    As I continue to read through the Old Testament I see human nature rear its head and more and more people were either ignoring the sin sacrifice,were not in a position to do so, or were dishonoring God with their sacrifices. Now, I am not trying to put words into God's mouth, nor would I even remotely suggest I know how He thinks but, if you we the loving creator God and it was becoming apparent the more and more of your created were no longer in a "right" relationship with you because of their lack of sin atonement thorough sacrifice, what would you do?

    I suppose one option would be completedestructionn, but God had already done that and promised not to again(Gen 9:8-17). The other option was/is to have the sin sacrifice be available to all, being done once for all. Ezekiell 34 talks of God's desire to restore His relationship with His people. Yet, I also see a congruent God in the scriptures, so God's decisions would have to be true to His previous guidelines set out in Leviticus.

    I can only imagine adilemmaa such as this. In my human thinking alone I know I would wrestle with how I can demonstrate my love for my created, some how communicate this to them, yet because I am congruent I would need to demonstrate this as well.

    In the midst of this dilemmaa" the New Testament begins. God sends His only-begotten, in human form, Son. A perfect male, with out sin or blemish to be a sacrifice once for all. To eliminate the need for continual sacrifice. To instead allow all people to either accept or reject this once for all sacrifice, forgiveness of sins, and relationship with the Creator God.

    Now comes the interesting part.(atleastt for me:) )If you look at Jesus as not just fully man, but also fully God, then you look at this sacrifice in a different light. Who better would understand the heart of God, and His desires, then God Himself? What would be a better demonstration of how serious God was about His love for us? Creating some one to die on our behalf, or allowing a part of Himself to be sacrificed on our behalf? The apostle Paul talked a little more on this in Philippians 2:1-11. His love for ussupersededd His love for Himself.

    The very fact, that God, being God, could HAVE created another way to sin atonement, but instead chose not to, continues to shape the awe in which I view His actions. I do not view what He allowed Christ to go through as an example of His lack of love, rather I view it as the greatest example of love in the history of mankind. A God who truly does not love Himself more then HIs created. I have never read, heard, or experienced a greater example of love then this. Not because of what He didn't do(save Christ) but because of what He did(save us.) If actions do indeed speak louder then words then this action with continue to reverberate long after I have left this earth.

    Anyway there it is. Why I believe Christ's sacrifice was an incredible example of God's love, made more so by my belief that Christ was indeed God. I am not sure if that helps explain my position more, but thanks for reading.
     
  9. carlrave

    carlrave New Member

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    Hi The Truth,

    Not my original quote but in all your verses you are referring to created people. People God had Father/Son like relationships. Just like the expression people use today "he is like a son to me." These people were His created, He personally did not sire them, he created them. The relationship He enjoyed with them however, was very much like that of father and son. Again depending on which side of this you view things, Jesus is the only one of these people who was fully man but also fully God. Therefore in that context only begotten, Jesus was the only man created by God who was also fully God. Since He was the only one to ever be born who was in nature God, He was indeed God's ONLY begotten.

    As for the David passage it was common in those times for a king and his subjects to interchange lord and servant with father and son. In this case the scripture was talking about the servanthood/sonship of David in God's eyes.

    Don't know if that helps?
     
  10. TashaN

    TashaN Veteran Member
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    hi carlrave,
    thanks so much for your reply and i really aperciate it but it's really confusing in how we deferntiate only Jesus to be a son and God at the same time and the rest just creatures.

    So, how can we be sure the rest who had the name son are not Gods too or that all of them are just creatures.

    the question is why Jesus is a son and God at the same time and the others havn't the right to be so?
     
  11. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    Elijah does not die at this time, nor does he go into the invisible spirit realm, but he is transferred to another prophetic assignment. (Joh 3:13) This is shown by the fact that Elisha does not hold any period of mourning for his master. A number of years after his ascension in the windstorm Elijah is still alive and active as a prophet, this time to the king of Judah. —2Ch 21:12-15;
    Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man...JOHN 3;13


     
  12. carlrave

    carlrave New Member

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    Hi the truth,

    Good question. I think the main reason is that no ones else who was referred to as sons of God ever claimed to be just that. Jesus was the only one who claimed to be from God and who God claimed to be His (Matt 3:17) No one else either made those claims or had their claims substantiated by God.

    Hope that helps.

    Cheers
     
  13. joeboonda

    joeboonda Well-Known Member

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    Baloneyl, I John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word (Jesus), and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
     
  14. joeboonda

    joeboonda Well-Known Member

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    To answer the original question, Jesus himself said he was God, so was he lying, absolutely not. Nor was he delusional as his very character would contradict that. And read the MANY prophecies about him in the old testament, he came to fulfil those, and explained to people that he must suffer and die for the sins of the world. Eyewitnesses, plural, which is a strong criteria in a court of law, saw him crucified, and dead, and ressurected. So I believe them, and NOT Mohammed that came along 600 years later and tried to change the story. Just like he changed Abraham sacrificing (almost) his son Isaac to Ishmael. The dead sea scrolls cleared that one up, thank God. Jesus is God, he is the only way to heaven, he said so, and that's that.
     
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  15. ahmedhelmy

    ahmedhelmy Member

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    Yes if jesus said so, then he is a lier. As there is only one god and God cannot be humen. Anyway Jesus isnot a lier as he never said so. What you read is the additions made by others in order to make christinaity popular as to make use of the miracles jesus have made through asking God to do them.

    Jesus have never said he is god
    Jesus Have never been crossfied
    All bibles you believe in are faigue bibles
    There were one lier who said all of these about jesus. He were never been a follower to jesus. He began spread christinity after jesus. Guess who is this lier??????
     
  16. Ryan2065

    Ryan2065 Well-Known Member

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    Just because the justice system uses eye witness testonmy does not mean it is good....
    http://arjournals.annualreviews.org/doi/abs/10.1146/annurev.psych.54.101601.145028?journalCode=psych
    http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/bpsoc/lcp/2002/00000007/00000002/art00003
    I could get more studies that show the same exact things that I listed above. Eyewitness testonmy is krap. =) Ask any respectable psychologist, they will tell you the truth.

    Don't even bring up the prophecies argument again. I read some of the "prophecies" that Jesus supposedly filled. They were so vauge that anyone could have filled them. Also, I suspect that there were many prophecies that Jesus did not fill, its just those prophecies were written off as "wrong" and lost in the sands of time.
     
  17. joeboonda

    joeboonda Well-Known Member

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    Hi, peace to you and your people. Do you believe the Old Testament is a fague, fake, false Bible, too?
     
  18. joeboonda

    joeboonda Well-Known Member

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    Hi, Hope you are doing well. I can see how people can be manipulated, but the Bible says 500 saw him after his ressurection at once, that's alot of eyewitnesses. And 2 people is credible in a court of law to convict someone, and a 3 rope cord is very strong or something, lol.
    Prophecies being vague? Is this vague? He would be betrayed for 30 pieces of silver. Not 29 not 50, not gold, 30 pieces of silver. Is it vague that his hands and feet would be pierced, his side would be pierced, not one bone would be broken, they would gamble for his clothing, that he would be born in Bethlehem, be presented with gifts, would ride into Jerusalem on a donkey, betrayed by a friend, the money thrown into God's house, the money given then for a Potter's Field, forsaken by his disciples, accused by fale witnesses, silent before accusers, wounded and bruised, smitten andspit upon, mocked, fell under the cross, crucified with thieves, made intercession for his persecutors, rejected by his own people, hated without a cause, friends stood far off, people shook their heads, stared upon, to suffer thirst on the cross, gall and vinegar offered to him , his forsaken cry , committed hi spirit to God, darkness over the land, buried in a rich man's tomb....need I list the over 300 very specific prophecies???????????????????????????? THESE ARE ALL FROM THE OLD TESTAMENT!!!!!!!!! OKAY? THANKS, PEACE!
     
  19. Ryan2065

    Ryan2065 Well-Known Member

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    Wow, so the prophecies said all of that? And maybe you have a link that quotes these prophecies to light? That would be nice =)

    The bible says that he appeared in front of 500 and of course the bible has no reason to lie about someone resurrecting or anything. And of course 500 people seeing a dead guy up and walking around is recorded somewhere other than the bible. And I am sure the bible actually gives the eye witness testnomy of each of the 500 people. Maybe you aren't familar with the court systems, but when one has eye witness testonmy, in order for it to be considered in court, one actually has to get the statement of the eye witness. How many "witnesses" were there to the gods of the greeks? I think more than 500. =)
     
  20. Ezzedean

    Ezzedean Active Member

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    What about Adam? Adam had no mother or father, God just said for him to be and he was, the same way he did for Jesus. Why isnt Adam and Eve considered the son and daughter of God aswell?

    Salam.
     
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