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Why christians believe that jesus is God?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by ahmedhelmy, Jul 26, 2005.

  1. EnhancedSpirit

    EnhancedSpirit High Priestess

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    1. Jacob is God's son and firstborn: "Israel is my son, even my firstborn" Exodus 4:22.
    1. Solomon is God's son "He shall build an house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom for ever. I will be his father, and he shall be my son": 2 Samuel 7:13-14.
    1. Ephraim is God's firstborn: "for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn." Jeremiah 31:9 (who is God's firstborn? Israel or Ephraim?).
    1. Adam is the son of God "Adam, which was the son of God." Luke 3:38.
    1. Common people (you and me) are the sons of God: "Ye are the children of the LORD your God" Deuteronomy 14:1. "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God" Romans 8:14. "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:" John 1:12. "That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;" Philippians 2:15. "Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: ... now are we the sons of God" 1 John 3:1-2. "When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?" Job 38:7. "Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD," Job 2:1. "Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD," Job 1:6. "when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men," Genesis 6:4. "That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they [were] fair" Genesis 6:2
    As we can see, the use of the term "son of God" when describing normal human beings was not at all an uncommon practice among Jesus' people.

    Well then, was Jesus the only begotten son of God? Read Psalms 2:7 "I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me (King David, King), Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.".

    Indeed, the Jews are even referred to as much more than this in the Bible, and this is indeed the very trait which Jesus (pbuh) held against them. When the Jews picked up stones to stone Jesus (pbuh) he defended himself with the following words

    "Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, 'I said, Ye are gods?' If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken..."
    John 10:34:

    (he was referring to Psalms 82:6 "I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High..") As we can see from these and many other verses like them, "son of God" in the language of the Jews was a very innocent term used to describe a loyal servant of God. Whether the translators and editors chose to write it as "Son of God" (with a capital S) in reference to Jesus and "son of God" (with a small S) in reference to everyone else does not diminish the fact that in the original language, both cases are exactly the same.

    Grolier's encyclopedia, under the heading "Jesus Christ," says:

    "During his earthly life Jesus was addressed as rabbi and was regarded as a prophet. Some of his words, too, place him in the category of sage. A title of respect for a rabbi would be "my Lord." Already before Easter his followers, impressed by his authority, would mean something more than usual when they addressed him as "my Lord.".... it is unlikely that the title "Son of David" was ascribed to him or accepted by him during his earthly ministry. "Son of God," in former times a title of the Hebrew kings (Psalms 2:7), was first adopted in the post-Easter church as an equivalent of Messiah and had no metaphysical connotations (Romans 1:4). Jesus was conscious of a unique filial relationship with God, but it is uncertain whether the Father/Son language (Mark 18:32; Matt. 11:25-27 par.; John passim) goes back to Jesus himself" .

    There seems to be only two places in the Bible where Jesus (pbuh) refers to himself as "son of God." They are in John chapters 5 and 11. Hastings in "The dictionary of the Bible" says: "Whether Jesus used it of himself is doubtful." However, Jesus is referred to as the "son of Man" (literally: "Human being") 81 times in the books of the Bible. In the Gospel of Barnabas, we are told that Jesus (pbuh) knew that mankind would make him a god after his departure and severely cautioned his followers from having anything to do with such people.

    Jesus was not the son of a human man (according to both the Bible and the Qur'an). However, we find him constantly saying "I am the son of man." Why?. It was because in the language of the Jews, that is how you say "I am a human being."

    What was he trying to tell us by constantly repeating and emphasizing to us throughout the New Testament "I am a human being," "I am a human being," "I am a human being"?
    from: 1.2.3.2 How many "Sons" does God have?
     
  2. James the Persian

    James the Persian Dreptcredincios Crestin

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    Does anyone know what this 'Gospel of Barnabas' is? I've managed to find an Epistle of Barnabas which says absolutely nothing of the sort that is claimed here, but I can find know mention of said Gospel anywhere. Clearly, in all likelihood if such a work exists it will be an apocryphal book, but I find it strange that the text that seems most likely to be the one referred to does not make any such claim. It makes me wonder as to the honesty of the quoted piece (quite apart from its obvious theological misinterpretations).

    James
     
  3. C&N

    C&N Member

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    WRONG WRONG WRONG! oh and one more thing... WRONG!

    That whole post about me basically talked about me saying that Jesus is a "God-Like" man correct? Well here are the exact words I said in that post.
    Where do I state Jesus is a man? I don't see the word man in there at all. But I guess making up claims to aid your personal attack towards me just because you don't like me is what anybody would do. Oh and my other posts clearly state that I don't believe jesus is a man. As for that other thread i posted, I will admit it was stupid and I wish I could take it back, cause I was kicking myself after it:banghead3 , but how dare you JUDGE me. That is against the orthodox beliefs, so therefor you are a hypocrite. And at least I am man enough to admit my mistakes, will you be?

    Proverbs 10:17 "... But he who refuses correction goes astray."
    Proverbs 10:18 "... And whoever spreads slander is a fool."
     
  4. may

    may Well-Known Member

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  5. Ahmadi

    Ahmadi Member

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    Please don’t mind me for my lack of knowledge of the Bible but as I read the above verse, it seems to me that it is written from a third person point of view. I would like to see verses that are directly from Jesus Christ (peace be on him) and not a third person’s opinion of Jesus.

    I would like to see the Hebrew version of “only begotten Son” and again, it seems that this is also a third person relating the story and I am not sure to what extent is this story credible.


    You see, may, the point I am trying to make is that all these verses were written a pretty long time after the death of Jesus Christ (peace be upon him). Theses books are similar to the Traditions (Ahadith) of the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of God be upon him) which were also compiled about 150 years after his death. These Traditions of Prophet Muhammad (saw) have inconsistency and not all of them can be trusted completely because the information was passed down to the 3rd or 4th generation before it was compiled.

    You have provided some interesting verses and I thank you for helping me expand my knowledge. However, just one more problem: If Jesus was the Son of God, what reason did he have to be born of a woman and get through infancy and childhood and waste all this time? Why didn't he simply descend from heaven and get started with his mission?
    I would also like to have evidence of Jesus discussing aspects of his pre-human life. Did he ever speak of it? Did he ever provide any details?
     
  6. EnhancedSpirit

    EnhancedSpirit High Priestess

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    Here is some info on the Gospel of Barnabas:
    [How it Survived ] [ Barnabas in Bible ] [ BARNABAS ][ Jesus as the Messiah ]

    The Gospel of Barnabas and the Book of Mormon

    Origins and Sources of the Gospel of Barnabas

    Christiniaty Under the Microscope -The Gospel of Barnabas is the most authentic Gospel available today. ...
     
  7. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Boy, this thread really is taking a detour! Now we've got the Book of Mormon involved. By the way, the article on the Book of Mormon contains a whole slew of innaccuracies itself (makes me doubt the validity of the other articles,too) so let's just stick to "Why Christians believe that Jesus is God" for now, okay?
     
  8. EnhancedSpirit

    EnhancedSpirit High Priestess

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    Katzpur, the relevency of these refrences to Barnabas, is that suppossedly this gospel was written by a disciple of Jesus and it suggests that Jesus did not die on the cross. So it's validity would make a huge impact on this topic. I originally found reference to it on a Islam sight. And was surprised to see it with reference to the Mormon bible, that is why I included that link. This is new to me. I have only just come across it, let's learn about it together, shall we?
     
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  9. James the Persian

    James the Persian Dreptcredincios Crestin

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    C&N,

    I apologise unreservedly. I misread your post and attributed a belief to you that I see you do not hold. I did not, however, judge you but pointed out that it is impossible to hold such beliefs and be Orthodox - that is judging the belief, not the believer, and does not make me a hypocrite at all. Orthodoxy has always judged heresies as such whilst attempting to correct the people who follow them. That is all I was trying to do in your case and I was hoping that it would cause you to rethink your beliefs. I accept that I made mistake when I read your post, but I hope you can understand that I was not trying to make a personal attack upon you. I do not dislike you at all. I barely know anything about you. I have, however, come across people in the past who claim to be Orthodox whilst holding to incredibly heterodox beliefs so it would not have surprised me to find you were another. I am glad to see that I was mistaken and apologise once again for any hurt I have caused you. Are you, likewise, willing to accept that you have made an error in your judgement of me and my motives? You, unfortunately, have been extremely quick to make judgements about my character which you could not possibly have derived from what I wrote. I hope we can bury the hatchet and get on with defending the divinity of Christ against those who argue otherwise and for this reason I genuinely ask your forgiveness.

    James
     
  10. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    I thought that these bible verses were quite thought provoking ,Jesus himself said these versesabout his pre-human life.
    Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man...John 3;13so here Jesus is saying that he came from heaven ,he is not saying he is God just that he came from heaven.

    because I have come down from heaven to do, not my will, but the will of him that sent me.....John 6;38and here Jesus says that he came down from heaven ,to do his fathers will .because it was his father Jehovah who sent him down.

    What, therefore, if YOU should behold the Son of man ascending to where he was before? ....John 6;62and again he speaks about where he was before.

    So he went on to say to them: "YOU are from the realms below; I am from the realms above. YOU are from this world; I am not from this world....John 8;23and here he speaks of the realms above where he was before

    Jesus said to them: "If God were YOUR Father, YOU would love me, for from God I came forth and am here. Neither have I come of my own initiative at all, but that One sent me forth...John 8;42 and here he says God sent him forth and he came from God , and we all know that God is a spirit in heaven ,so thats where he was sent forth from.

    Jesus said to them: "Most truly I say to YOU, Before Abraham came into existence, I have been.....John 8;58 and here Jesus is refering to the fact that he had been in existence even before abraham ....how come? because he was in heaven .i learn many things from JW to put matters straight regarding accurate translations this is what i learnt from studies with JW John 8;58 this is the Greek




    Joh​
    8:58—"before Abraham came into existence, I have been"







    Gr.,​
    πρ
    ιν ᾿Αβρααµ γενέσθαι εγω ειµί





    (prin A·bra·am´ ge·ne´sthai e·go´ ei·mi´) also Jesus himself said this verse in john 6;56-57

    He that feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood remains in union with me, and I in union with him. Just as the living Father sent me forth and I live because of the Father, he also that feeds on me, even that one will live because of me.......so he said that he lived because of the father.......this was because the father created him . so the gaining of life by dying men would result in their faith in the ransom sacrifice of Jesus christ


     
  11. James the Persian

    James the Persian Dreptcredincios Crestin

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    Well, the above site is talking nonsense, for a start. There was no edict to destroy scriptures at Nicea and, in fact, said council had absolutely nothing to do with the canon at all. St. Constantine, rather than destroying scripture, made an edict that several copies of the scriptures should be made and disseminated around the empire. One of these copies is believed to be the Codex Sinaiticus.

    I won't comment on this one because Katzpur's answered adequately.

    This one seems reasonable. I can't vouch for all the details, but the dating section sounds fairly convincing, so I'm now lead to believe that the Gospel of Barnabas (which I can find in no Christian sources and is notable by it's absence at http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/) is probably a medieval forgery. If so, then nothing it says could have any bearing whatsoever on the divinity of Christ.

    This site suffers from the same sort of problems as the first one, so I think perhaps we ought to shelve any discussion of the 'Gospel' of Barnabas. Whatever it is, it clearly isn't written by the author it is attributed to.

    James
     
  12. Ahmadi

    Ahmadi Member

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    Ok… The descending of Jesus Christ (pbuh) from heaven is a very simple matter. I believe that there was a prophecy regarding Elijah who would descend from heaven as he was carried up into heaven in a chariot. I believe that this is all metaphorical and Jesus is trying to tell us that he is the Messiah who was prophesized to come in the latter days. Using the words of the prophecy, he says that he has descended from heaven but this cannot be taken literally. The Jews took the prophecy literally and ended up not believing in Jesus as the Promised Messiah.

    According to my Bible, the verse goes as follows:
    “And he was saying to them, You are from below, I am from above,; you are of this world, I am not of this world.”
    Again, maya, you are taking this verse way too literally. The idea is that Jesus is saying to the people that they are too involved in worldly affairs and are encompassed by the world and its attractions. They have blinded themselves to recognizing the Promised Messiah because they are not spiritual and they don’t have anything to do with heaven, God, spirituality and salvation. On the other hand, Jesus is ‘not of this world’ because he teaches spirituality and how to prepare oneself for the next world. At his time, he was the source of guidance and salvation for the people and so, he was ‘from above’ and not ‘from below’.

    First, God is everywhere and not in a confined space called heaven but this is not the subject so I will not discuss it here. Anyhow, Every prophet who came to this earth has made the same claim and has said that “I came from God”. Are you going to believe that all of them came directly from heaven and are Gods?
    Every prophet said, “God sent me” (John 8:42). Did they all come directly from heaven?
    I think it would have been more believable if Jesus had simply descended from the heaven in a spirit form and not in a body of flesh like a human. I would have believed that he is from the heaven if he had portrayed himself from heaven by having a spiritual body or some supernatural body. What need was there for childhood, infancy, a body of flesh and bones, everyday habit of eating and drinking, etc…. everything like a human? No, everything like a prophet?

    The language of Jesus Christ (pbuh) was Hebrew, am I wrong? The Greek version itself is a translation… so, the most accurate version remains a mystery, don’t you agree?
     
  13. Ahmadi

    Ahmadi Member

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  14. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    I responded to both of these questions in my post #127 on August 7. I'm curious as to why you would ask the same question again without first replying to that post.
     
  15. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    well i suppose it has a lot to do with weather a person wants to believe what the bible states. there are more than enough verses to tell us that Jesus came from above
    (1 Corinthians 15:47) The first man(Adam) is out of the earth and made of dust; the second man(Jesus) is out of heaven



    (Ephesians 4:9) Now the expression "he ascended," what does it mean but that he also descended into the lower regions, that is, the earth?.......the bible is plain enough......yes i would agree that Jesus is our guidence and we can gain salvation though him...............oh just a thought my name is May not maya:)


    (John 6:33) For the bread of God is the one who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world...........yes this is Jesus and we should feed on him .also Jehovah God is in heaven as the bible tells us

    Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified matthew 6;9

    This is what Jehovah has said: "The heavens are my throne, and the earth is my footstool. Where, then, is the house that YOU people can build for me, and where, then, is the place as a resting-place for me?....Isaiah 66;1

    (Psalm 11:4) Jehovah is in his holy temple. Jehovah—in the heavens is his throne. His own eyes behold, his own beaming eyes examine the sons of men.









    (2 Chronicles 20:6) and he proceeded to say: "O Jehovah the God of our forefathers, are you not God in the heavens, and are you not dominating over all the kingdoms of the nations, and are there not in your hand power and mightiness, with no one to hold his ground against you?














    (Psalm 103:19) Jehovah himself has firmly established his throne in the very heavens; And over everything his own kingship has held domination.​



    (Matthew 23:22) and he that swears by heaven is swearing by the throne of God and by him that is sitting on it.​



    (Acts 7:49) ‘The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool. What sort of house will YOU build for me? Jehovah says. Or what is the place for my resting?​



    (Revelation 4:2) After these things I immediately came to be in [the power of the] spirit: and, look! a throne was in its position in heaven, and there is one seated upon the throne............yes Jehovah God has always been in the heavens but his son was sent down to the earth
    because I have come down from heaven to do, not my will, but the will of him that sent me.....John 6;38


     
  16. TashaN

    TashaN Veteran Member
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    hi, I am a new member in here and I'm sorry if i came up with an old post to reply.
    just i wanted to be part of this wonderful community and I wanted to read this debate from the beginning and not just enter just like that.

    about the egg thing ...

    if we said that White is like a God, part is God and Yoke is God so that means you can consider every part of the egg as an egg by itself as same as you consider every God of the 3 as a God by himself which is logically not acceptable coz you can't produce an egg from 1 part as you claimed in the EGG " theory " and it's the same case here as we can't say all 3 are actually 1 because we none of the egg's parts can be a complete egg by itself and non of the 3 Gods can be separated coz they must be 3 in 1.

    if you think so then, God is a person, Jesus is a person and Holy spirit is a person but all of them are actually 1 person.

    does it make any sense?
     
  17. TashaN

    TashaN Veteran Member
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    * hi C&N, this is an interesting example.

    I'll pretend that the holy trinity is like acetate so now simply we have:

    Jesus + holy spirit + the father = the trinity

    Carbon + hydrogen + oxygen = acetate ( right ? ) ... but

    you can't get " acetate " without any element of these 3 right ? ..

    so, if there is:
    no Carbon so no acetate
    no hydrogen so no acetate
    no oxygen so no acetate

    and we hv got the same case here when Jesus was killed on the cross ...

    let's see again:

    Jesus( not anymore in this case) + holy spirit + the father = the trinity

    so we have only :
    holy spirit + the father = the trinity ( which is wrong )


    so at that moment when Jesus was dead you mean there is no trinity ?

    does it make to you guys any sense?

    I'm confused so make it plz clear for me but I beg you don't say read the bible more and God will guide you coz i'm tired already of reading but many things made be confused more and more and i guess the truth must be clear and why God whould make us confused like that unless we are in the wrong way? :(
     
  18. TashaN

    TashaN Veteran Member
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    * as a matter of fact, all of us knows that The Holy Bible was translated only from the original one which wasn't actually in english and for your information and also you can ask your friends about it that there are specific things in other languages like hebrew, arabic and maybe some other language when people with high positions like kings for example can call themselves( we ) instead of just ( I ).

    so when God said " we " he meant himself by that not as you claimed that he is not alone.

    and when they translated it to english they translated it without considering the differences in languages.
     
  19. carlrave

    carlrave New Member

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    Hi, new to this and just finished reading all 16 pages. Such an interesting and really exahuastive debate. Hard to debate any faith based realities when inevitably faith will always determine our out-look. One will literally interpret scripture, another will view it as "guidelines" or "suggestions." Even for myself, my relationship and daily encounter with the living God causes such a strong bias. I've never wanted to be condescending or exclusive but many of us "born agains" create that persona unfortunately.

    Here is what I know, or at least think I do ;) Based on my reading of the scriptures I am so struck by the Love God has for His created. This love, demonstrated by His willingness to send Christ to be the "last sin sacrifice" is astounding to me. Who am I? A belief that Jesus was God incarnate just makes that so much more amazing. If God is indeed love as the Psalms seem to so strongly suggest, then what a more congruent way to demonstrate Love then for God Himself in the form of His Son to make that sacrifice on the cross? Again, faith and experience, play an overwhelming part in the viewing of this. My interpretation of Scripture will always go through this window.

    I recognize this is not a very intellectual post. I beg your forgiveness for its rambling. Reading all 16 pages over the past few hours has stirred these thoughts. I will endeavor to limit my posts for here on in. Thank you for indulging me.

    Blessings to you all.
     
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  20. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    Hi carlrave,
    Nice to meet you!

    As I notice that this is your first post, I thought I would like to Welcome you to the forum ;

    You might like to have a look at :- Articles for New Members ; from there, there is a link to the forum rules, which you ought to see.

    Perhaps you would post on:- Are you new to ReligiousForums.com?, asa way of introducing yourself to the other members.

    I love your "Based on my reading of the scriptures I am so struck by the Love God has for His created. This love, demonstrated by His willingness to send Christ to be the "last sin sacrifice" is astounding to me." - is spot on; it reflects the way I believe in God.

    I look forward to seeing your posts - and remember anything you want to know - ask; there most likely be somone around who knows the answer.;)
     
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