Why christians believe that jesus is God?

[C&N]

How can anyone but GOD save us?

Jesus can save us, because (as mentioned below) God gave Jesus God-like powers.

So now Jesus was a man the same as Adam?
again... only God can forgive sins... not a man.

No.
What may forgot to include when he posted his response to my post was that in Colossians 1.19 states "For it was by God's own decision that the Son has in himself the full nature of God."
Pretty self explanatory.

... and again, you do not answer my questions.. only create more..... I give up.

What other questions are there?

 

[Scott1]

Jesus can save us, because (as mentioned below) God gave Jesus God-like powers.

Gotta keep up CN... I asked for an explaination of "God-like" earlier... this answers nothing.

Pretty self explanatory.

Apparently not.

What other questions are there?

Any of the questions I asked... in no particular order... and one more... what kind of "orthodox" are ya?

 

[Katzpur]

Yes, they are physically distinct, and I think that each member sort of "specializes" in his own area.... But if we were to some how put the Father, Son, and Holy spirit in like the same scenario, I bet they would each do the same thing. Although physically different, I believe they share the same spirit/soul.

I agree with you that they are physically distinct. I also agree that there is absolutely no contention whatsoever between them, that they think and act as "one." I don't believe that they share the same spirit, though. I believe that each one has His own spirit, but that their spirits are united in will and purpose to a degree that we as mortals cannot even begin to understand.

Your questions are hard! I haven't even read the whole bible yet, but I will try my best at these questions. You are asking if the holy trinity sort of divided into three parts right? Well,from what I have read in the bible I can't even find the word trinity. I guess the whole "Trinity" is like the ultimate team or something, and the three member are the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Well, join the club. Neither have I. You can probably stop looking for the word "Trinity" in the Bible, by the way. It's not there. But again, I would agree that the Trinity (I'd use the word "Godhead", since it is in the Bible) is, as you have said, "the ultimate team." I actually think that's a great way to explain their relationship.

I want to say no... It seems in the bible that each member of the trinity have the same capabilities and wisdom, but there is no "I" in team hahaha. So I guess during the bible's time, two members would just sit up in heaven while the other one did the work that each were fully capable of doing. But then again if each have the capabilities of the other, then one is no more powerful than three... I guess there are three though to reach the humans in different ways I am guessing. I hope somebody on this thread with more knowledge than me can clear this up.

Believe me, you did as good a job as anyone else!

But! What I know for sure is why christians believe Jesus was greater than a man, to simply answer this thread makers question! GEN 1.26 "Then God said 'And now we will make human beings; They will be like us and resemble us...'" God (the Father) is saying us, like there is more than one person there. Which means that God is not alone in the creation. God was accompanied with the holy spirit, and Jesus! Yay! Therefor if Jesus was there during the creation, then he must not be a mere human if humans were made like him.

Right on!

Kathryn

 

[Katzpur]

My thoughts precisely.

James

And mine.

 

[C&N]

Gotta keep up CN... I asked for an explaination of "God-like" earlier... this answers nothing.
Apparently not.
Any of the questions I asked... in no particular order... and one more... what kind of "orthodox" are ya?

Dear Scott1

Colossians 1.19 states "For it was by God's own decision that the Son has in himself the full nature of God." The Son and the Father have within them the same powers. You ask for the definition of God like? Well, it means being like a god i guess. Jesus has vested in him supernatural powers, given to him by God, and God didn't spare anything. He gave Jesus the full nature of himself.

Pretend you were superman, and you decided to make a son. You chose to give the son all the powers that you have. Since you and your son are now equal, would you say that your son is "Superman-like?" I would, because Superman-like is the same as Being-Like-Superman. Therefor God-Like = Being-Like-God.

And what kind of "Orthodox" am I? I am an unorthodox Greek orthodox. Just joking. But seriously, I am Greek Orthodox, I just don't go to church so I figured I would make a joke.

I know you have more questions, but i joined this thread on the 9th page, so in a simple post, ask about everything you are unsure of and I/other people will do my/their best to answer your questions.

 

[may]

Dear Scott1

Colossians 1.19 states "For it was by God's own decision that the Son has in himself the full nature of God." The Son and the Father have within them the same powers. You ask for the definition of God like? Well, it means being like a god i guess. Jesus has vested in him supernatural powers, given to him by God, and God didn't spare anything. He gave Jesus the full nature of himself.

Pretend you were superman, and you decided to make a son. You chose to give the son all the powers that you have. Since you and your son are now equal, would you say that your son is "Superman-like?" I would, because Superman-like is the same as Being-Like-Superman. Therefor God-Like = Being-Like-God.

And what kind of "Orthodox" am I? I am an unorthodox Greek orthodox. Just joking. But seriously, I am Greek Orthodox, I just don't go to church so I figured I would make a joke.

I know you have more questions, but i joined this thread on the 9th page, so in a simple post, ask about everything you are unsure of and I/other people will do my/their best to answer your questions.

i thought this was interesting the name michael means
(Mi´cha·el) [Who Is Like God?] and it is my believe that the name michael was the heavenly name given to Gods son before he came to earth. and also the name given to him after he went back to heaven so that would make sense also

 

[Ahmadi]

i thought this was interesting the name michael means
(Mi´cha·el) [Who Is Like God?] and it is my believe that the name michael was the heavenly name given to Gods son before he came to earth. and also the name given to him after he went back to heaven so that would make sense also

You say that Jesus was God-like. Why don't you consider the idea that Jesus was just a man? Why don't you consider that he was just a prophet like Abraham, Moses, Noah, etc.?

I think that when God calls anyone "His Son", it is only to show respect and love for His Prophet. What about the possibility that Jesus is simply a messenger of God?

The other thing is that even if Jesus was supposingly God or God-like, why did he pray to God. If Jesus was truly God Himself, what sense does this prayer make? Aalee Aalee limaa Shabaktani (O God, O God, why have you forsaken me?)

Can anyone explain the sense of the above prayer where Jesus calls on/prays to his God? There are other times when he does pray to God. Doesn't that make him more like a prophet than a God?

 

[Katzpur]

You say that Jesus was God-like. Why don't you consider the idea that Jesus was just a man? Why don't you consider that he was just a prophet like Abraham, Moses, Noah, etc.?

Jesus, while human, was not "just a man," or "just a prophet like Abraham, Moses, Noah, etc." I realize that, as a Muslim, you do not accept the New Testament as scripture. However, here's what John 5:26 has to say on the subject:

"For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself."
Jesus voluntarily laid down His life for all of us. Abraham, Moses or Noah could have offered themselves as a sacrifice, too. But none of them would have the power -- on his own -- to raise himself from the dead. John 5:26 is saying that Jesus did have this power. He didn't need to rely on His Father to give Him new life after three days, as any of God's other prophets would have done. He had the power in Himself to do this. It's a power exclusive to divinity.

I think that when God calls anyone "His Son", it is only to show respect and love for His Prophet. What about the possibility that Jesus is simply a messenger of God?

Again, in Hebrews 1:8, God the Father says to His Son, Jesus Christ: Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Since you don't accept Hebrews as God's word, this obviously means nothing to you. But why would God direct His remarks to Jesus, including the phrase, "O God..." if Jesus was nothing more than a messenger?

The other thing is that even if Jesus was supposingly God or God-like, why did he pray to God. If Jesus was truly God Himself, what sense does this prayer make? Aalee Aalee limaa Shabaktani (O God, O God, why have you forsaken me?)

He was praying to His Father, whom He stated on several occasions was also His God. He acknowledged that His Father was greater than He, that the Father had sent Him to do His will and that everything He had, He'd received from His Father. Obviously, He worshipped God, but since His Father had given Him everything He had, this would include the right to be known as God and worshipped by us as God. The Father and the Son, however, are not both just part of a single invisible essence. They are two physically distinct beings.

Kathryn

 

[Ahmadi]

Jesus, while human, was not "just a man," or "just a prophet like Abraham, Moses, Noah, etc." I realize that, as a Muslim, you do not accept the New Testament as scripture. However, here's what John

5:26 has to say on the subject:
"For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself."

Just for you to know, I do believe that both the Old and the New Testament are scriptures of God. In fact, I wouldn't be much of a muslim if I didn't. The only thing is that the scriptures have been edited to some extent or at least the various translations have distorted the real meaning of the original text that was revealed.

Again, in Hebrews 1:8, God the Father says to His Son, Jesus Christ:

Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

The above verse has been discussed several times in this thread and there is confusion as to the actual translation of the verse. If you can, please provide other verses to prove that Jesus is God. Is there any verse where Jesus actually calls himself God?

Obviously, He worshipped God, but since His Father had given Him everything He had, this would include the right to be known as God and worshipped by us as God.

Again, are there any verses where God wants people to worship Jesus as God?

Anyhow, there are a lot of questions that are raised by your reply but I would just like to discuss one more question: How can you prove that Jesus actually died on the cross? What evidence is there really for his death?
Isn't it possible that he survived the crucifixion? If you don’t mind, please answer this question with full clarity.

 

[Katzpur]

Just for you to know, I do believe that both the Old and the New Testament are scriptures of God. In fact, I wouldn't be much of a muslim if I didn't. The only thing is that the scriptures have been edited to some extent or at least the various translations have distorted the real meaning of the original text that was revealed.

Well, I learned something today, then. I did not realize that Muslims accept the New Testament as scripture. I would also agree with you that they are not inerrant. Doubtless, errors have crept in as they were translated and we do not, of course, actually have any of the original manuscripts. Furthermore, even though I do accept the Bible as the word of God, I don't believe that it is God's only word. Nevertheless, the New Testament is so focused on Christ as the Savior of the world as as God's only begotten Son that it's hard for me to understand how anyone who claims to believe it could come away from it concluding that Jesus' role was essentially equivalent to Moses', Abraham's or Noah's.

The above verse has been discussed several times in this thread and there is confusion as to the actual translation of the verse. If you can, please provide other verses to prove that Jesus is God. Is there any verse where Jesus actually calls himself God?

Well, when Thomas finally realized that he was, in fact, looking at the risen Savior, he exclaimed, "My Lord and my God!" To me the fact that Jesus did not correct him is significant. Do you believe that if someone had referred to Abraham as "God," Abraham would have let it ride? I don't. And I don't think that Jesus would have done either, had He not realized that He was, in fact, God's Son and, therefore, himself "God."

Again, are there any verses where God wants people to worship Jesus as God?

I believe that God wants us to worship Jesus as our Savior and Redeemer. But I personally believe that God the Father is "the Highest." When I pray, I address my prayers to Him (the Father). The fact that Jesus is said to be "the way, the truth and the life" and the only means by which we can re reconciled to the Father makes it pretty clear to me that we are to worship Him, too. I really can't think of any verses you would accept as "proof." If the entire New Testament doesn't make this clear to you, one or two isolated verses certainly wouldn't.

How can you prove that Jesus actually died on the cross? What evidence is there really for his death?

Isn't it possible that he survived the crucifixion?

No, I most certainly cannot prove that He actually died on the cross. The scriptures say He did, though, and I believe them. It certainly doesn't seem likely to me that He survived the crucifixion. Do you have some evidence that He did? Of course, several hundred people witnessed the resurrection, but if you don't believe He died in the first place, I don't suppose you'd go along with the resurrection either. What I'm really, really confused about is that you claim to believe the New Testament is scripture. So far, you've pretty much tried to shoot down everything it testifies of. Just what part of it do you accept?

 

[Scuba Pete]

Our physical limitations are the real problem here. God is spirit, and yet he had to have a physical embodiment. We don't have our spiritual embodiment yet, so it's impossible for us to completely comprehend the ramifications of the spiritual/physical beings.

So we match up our imperfect understandings against everyone else's and no one can really understand my theory and vice versa. Why?

This is a spiritual mystery. If we could fully understand it, we would be with God already. But we can't and so we muddle on. But Jesus is the son of God as much as he IS God. I don't need to understand HOW, but I sure am glad that he is.

 

[michel]

Thanks; I am still trying to get to grips with many of the 'difficult' concepts - and that is one.

 

[Katzpur]

Our physical limitations are the real problem here. God is spirit, and yet he had to have a physical embodiment. We don't have our spiritual embodiment yet, so it's impossible for us to completely comprehend the ramifications of the spiritual/physical beings.

When you speak of a "spiritual embodiment," what exactly do you mean? Each of us has a spirit and a physical body, just like Christ did. Each of us is able to worship God "in spirit" because it is through spiritual channels that we are able to communicate with God and He with us. When you say that God had to have a "physical embodiment," do you think that He came to Earth in the form of Jesus Christ and was no longer in Heaven? If so, why did Jesus continually refer to His Father as being "in Heaven"?

 

[may]

You say that Jesus was God-like. Why don't you consider the idea that Jesus was just a man? Why don't you consider that he was just a prophet like Abraham, Moses, Noah, etc.?

I think that when God calls anyone "His Son", it is only to show respect and love for His Prophet. What about the possibility that Jesus is simply a messenger of God?

The other thing is that even if Jesus was supposingly God or God-like, why did he pray to God. If Jesus was truly God Himself, what sense does this prayer make? Aalee Aalee limaa Shabaktani (O God, O God, why have you forsaken me?)

Can anyone explain the sense of the above prayer where Jesus calls on/prays to his God? There are other times when he does pray to God. Doesn't that make him more like a prophet than a God?

As one of JW i do not believe that Jesus was God , so it was quite reasonable for Jesus to pray to his father in heaven because he was Gods son and not God himself .so the bible does not contradict itself when the correct understanding is applied

 

[michel]

When you speak of a "spiritual embodiment," what exactly do you mean? Each of us has a spirit and a physical body, just like Christ did. Each of us is able to worship God "in spirit" because it is through spiritual channels that we are able to communicate with God and He with us. When you say that God had to have a "physical embodiment," do you think that He came to Earth in the form of Jesus Christ and was no longer in Heaven? If so, why did Jesus continually refer to His Father as being "in Heaven"?

That's a bit heavy for me Kathryn; as you know I'm a bit new to this, and that is deep - I'll see if I can work out an answer, but you might have to wait for the Mighty Doc for a reply!

 

[Scuba Pete]

God is pan-dimensional. He exists over many different dimensions, both spiritual and physical. Consequently, God can be here on earth physically and spiritually still in heaven. If I knew how he did that, I would be God. I'm just glad he is able.

While we have a spiritual aspect to our lives we do not yet have our spiritual embodiment. We will get this when we are clothed "incorruptible" at the final trumpet sound.

How much of this do we NEED to understand? Very little. Very little. It will be made clear as we really NEED to understand it. Do I understand it completely? Not at all. What I "know" I have gleaned from the scriptures and since I do not feel it promotes love, I find it at the back of my spiritual "to do" list.

 

[michel]

I knew the NetDoc would come up with the right answer!


You do puzzle me though; by ." and since I do not feel it promotes love, I find it at the back of my spiritual "to do" list." - do I understand that you just put that on the 'back burner' because there is no need to hurry to find out why and how ? - and that your time is best spent on Love ? - or have I misunderstood you?

 

[Scuba Pete]

I Corinthians 8:1 Now about food sacrificed to idols: We know that we all possess knowledge. Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up. 2 The man who thinks he knows something does not yet know as he ought to know. 3 But the man who loves God is known by God. NIV

I want to be known by God, Michel. I would rather build up than participate in "endless controversies". Hopefully, my time here at RF can be seen as that.

 

[michel]

I Corinthians 8:1 Now about food sacrificed to idols: We know that we all possess knowledge. Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up. 2 The man who thinks he knows something does not yet know as he ought to know. 3 But the man who loves God is known by God. NIV

I want to be known by God, Michel. I would rather build up than participate in "endless controversies". Hopefully, my time here at RF can be seen as that.

O.K thanks; I have got it! I knew you would point me in the right direction..

 

[Ahmadi]

[/color]
Well, I learned something today, then. I did not realize that Muslims accept the New Testament as scripture. I would also agree with you that they are not inerrant. Doubtless, errors have crept in as they were translated and we do not, of course, actually have any of the original manuscripts. Furthermore, even though I do accept the Bible as the word of God, I don't believe that it is God's only word. Nevertheless, the New Testament is so focused on Christ as the Savior of the world as as God's only begotten Son that it's hard for me to understand how anyone who claims to believe it could come away from it concluding that Jesus' role was essentially equivalent to Moses', Abraham's or Noah's.

Well, the thing is that I try to understand Jesus Christ (peace be upon him) through the light of the Holy Quran. It states that he was just a prophet, who ate and drank and lived just like a human being. Since you don’t believe the Quran as the word of God, I can’t make any arguments from there.

Well, when Thomas finally realized that he was, in fact, looking at the risen Savior, he exclaimed, "My Lord and my God!" To me the fact that Jesus did not correct him is significant. Do you believe that if someone had referred to Abraham as "God," Abraham would have let it ride? I don't. And I don't think that Jesus would have done either, had He not realized that He was, in fact, God's Son and, therefore, himself "God."

Just as I said before, many prophets are sometimes referred to as “Lords” because of their high rank and status among the people. They are the ones who show us the path to God. It is only done out of respect and love.

I believe that God wants us to worship Jesus as our Savior and Redeemer. But I personally believe that God the Father is "the Highest." When I pray, I address my prayers to Him (the Father). The fact that Jesus is said to be "the way, the truth and the life" and the only means by which we can re reconciled to the Father makes it pretty clear to me that we are to worship Him, too. I really can't think of any verses you would accept as "proof." If the entire New Testament doesn't make this clear to you, one or two isolated verses certainly wouldn't.

Try me… please…

No, I most certainly cannot prove that He actually died on the cross. The scriptures say He did, though, and I believe them. It certainly doesn't seem likely to me that He survived the crucifixion. Do you have some evidence that He did? Of course, several hundred people witnessed the resurrection, but if you don't believe He died in the first place, I don't suppose you'd go along with the resurrection either. What I'm really, really confused about is that you claim to believe the New Testament is scripture. So far, you've pretty much tried to shoot down everything it testifies of. Just what part of it do you accept?

I must apologize that I only discussed our differences. Actually, there are a lot of commonalities. Many of the moral teaching of the Christianity coincide with the moral teachings of Islam and there a lot of things (in action) that are the same. The major differences only exist in the understanding of some concepts. Anyhow, based on the bible, I will try to prove that Jesus did not die on the cross. I just need some time to gather some quotations.

Farhan