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Why christians believe that jesus is God?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by ahmedhelmy, Jul 26, 2005.

  1. joeboonda

    joeboonda Well-Known Member

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    John 8:58 Jesus said tho them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."

    From Old testament scripture, the words "I AM" refer to the name of God Himself.

    Exodus 3:14 And God said untio Moses, I AM THAT I AM; and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

    John 14:8,9...He who has seen Me has seen the Father...
    John 10:30 I and my Father are one.
    Also see John 5:23,24 8:19 14:1 1:1
    Also, Jesus accepted worship and told people their sins were forgiven, only God can accept worship, and forgive sins. The disciples always told ppl NOT to worship them, but to worship God. Throughout the new testament he is called God;
    Romans 9:5 ...Christ came, who is overall, the eternally blessed God, Amen.
    Hebrew 1:8 But to the Son He says; 'Your throne, O God, is forever and ever...
    Colossians 2:9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.

    There is so much more in the new testament that shows Jesus is God, this is just a tiny bit. One more verse, I quoted back a bit;

    Mathew 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a SON, and they shall call his name EMMANUEL, which being interpreted is, GOD with us.
     
  2. joeboonda

    joeboonda Well-Known Member

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  3. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    I am very glad to hear you say that i am only sticking to the bible for my answers .as my belief as one of JW is based solely on the bible as the pure word of God ,i do not base my beliefs on any manmade doctrines
     
  4. James the Persian

    James the Persian Dreptcredincios Crestin

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    That is not what I said at all. You appear to be reading what you would most like to see into my answer. What I said was, that your premises lead to a seeming logical absurdity but when I ask you for an explanation all you can provide are Biblical quotes that (according to your interpretation) support your premises, rather than trying to explain how these premises lead logically to your conclusion.

    In actual fact I said almost the exact opposite of what you claim I did, as I quite clearly stated in one of my posts that even your premises only make sense if, for the sake of argument, I accept the JW tradition of interpretation. This tradition is indeed a manmade doctrine and one which is certainly not obvious from the text of the Scriptures that you claim to follow solely.

    James
     
  5. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    Eventually there came a writing to him from E·li´jah the prophet, saying: "This is what Jehovah the God of David your forefather has said, ‘Due to the fact that you have not walked in the ways of Je·hosh´a·phat your father or in the ways of A´sa the king of Judah .....i was just making the point that he did not die earlier, as it mentions him writing a letter 2 chronicals 21;12only some say he died when he was taken up , but here later he is still alive .


















    (2 Kings 2:1) And it came about that when Jehovah was to take E·li´jah in a windstorm up to the heavens, E·li´jah and E·li´sha proceeded to go from Gil´gal.










    (2 Kings 2:11) And it came about that as they were walking along, speaking as they walked, why, look! a fiery war chariot and fiery horses, and they proceeded to make a separation between them both; and E·li´jah went ascending in the windstorm to the heavens.......
    At 2 Kings 2:11, 12 the prophet Elijah is described as "ascending in the windstorm to the heavens." The heavens here referred to are the atmospheric heavens in which windstorms occur, not the spiritual heavens of God’s presence. Elijah did not die at the time of such ascension, but he continued to live for a number of years after his heavenly transportation away from his successor Elisha. Nor did Elijah upon death ascend to the spiritual heavens, since Jesus, while on earth, clearly stated that "no man has ascended into heaven." (Joh 3:13


    sorry not sure about the prophecy that you mentioned i maybe on the wrong track but did not John the baptist act like Elijah clearing up the way before Jesus came

     
  6. TashaN

    TashaN Veteran Member
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  7. Ahmadi

    Ahmadi Member

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    So, the ascension of Elijah to the heavens is different from the ascension of Jesus (as) to the heavens... okay? Now I am really confused. One ascension is being taken literally and the other is metaphorical?

    Since you are trying to prove that Elijah was alive after the "ascension", I can also prove that Jesus (as) was alive after the "ascension". In fact, there is a lot of historical evidence for that.

    Did John the Baptist ever claim that he is Elijah?
     
  8. Ahmadi

    Ahmadi Member

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    Thanks for the detailed reply.:)

    However, I've got to admit that there alot of things that I totally disagree with. And to explain the historial arguments, I have a lot of problem with the 'death and resurrection' of Jesus Christ (as). What solid proof exists for his death? There seems to be a lot of historical arguments that suggest that he did not die at all. Since this is getting off topic, can you explain this in more detail in the following thread: Jesus and Islam: A new perspective

    Secondly, what is your viewpoint on the prophecy of Elijah - did he really ascend to heaven? If yes, isn't that similar to the ascension of Jesus Christ (as) to heaven, thus, giving birth to the orthodox beliefs?
     
  9. Ahmadi

    Ahmadi Member

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    From what I see is that the above verses are susceptible to different interpretations and even different translations. For instance, "I am my Father are one" is similar to many statements that have been made by many a saint in Islamic history who have said: "I am God". Such statements were always metaphorical and they mean that those saints have actually reached a very high status in spirituality that they have a very strong bond with God. Anyhow, is there a statement where Jesus clearly says, "I am God" -- oh, and I don't want third person statements or statements that can be interpreted in different ways. Is there a statement where Jesus (as) actually says, "I am God and you should wordhip me". Thanks for your help.
     
  10. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    i am not trying to prove that Elijah was alive after the ascension ,but i am only seeing what the bible says, also the bible tells us, that Jesus did go to heaven ,as the bible tells us that he was in heaven at Gods right hand

    (Acts 7:56) and he said: "Look! I behold the heavens opened up and the Son of man standing at God’s right hand


    (Ephesians 1:20) with which he has operated in the case of the Christ when he raised him up from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places,


    (Colossians 3:1) If, however, YOU were raised up with the Christ, go on seeking the things above, where the Christ is seated at the right hand of God.

    (Hebrews 1:3) He is the reflection of [his] glory and the exact representation of his very being, and he sustains all things by the word of his power; and after he had made a purification for our sins he sat down on the right hand of the Majesty in lofty places.​



    (Hebrews 10:12) But this [man] offered one sacrifice for sins perpetually and sat down at the right hand of God

    (Hebrews 12:2) as we look intently at the Chief Agent and Perfecter of our faith, Jesus. For the joy that was set before him he endured a torture stake, despising shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God


    (1 Peter 3:22) He is at God’s right hand, for he went his way to heaven; and angels and authorities and powers were made subject to him .............so the bible informs us that Jesus was at Gods side ...........

     
  11. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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  12. James the Persian

    James the Persian Dreptcredincios Crestin

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    Yes, Elijah really ascended to heaven, but as he didn't die and wasn't resurrected, I don't see the similarity with Christ's ascension. Do you think you could explain what it is you see as being similar?

    James
     
  13. Ahmadi

    Ahmadi Member

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    The above verses are susceptible to different interpretations. However, you haven't answered my question regarding the fulfillment of the prophecy regarding Elijah. Who fulfilled that prophecy? How was it fulfilled?

    Isn't there a prophecy regarding the return of Elijah? Who fulfilled this prophecy and what's the evidence regarding the fulfillment of this prophecy?
     
  14. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    Elijah foreshadowed John the Baptist, a forerunner of the Messiah. (Matthew 17:11-13)

     
  15. glasgowchick

    glasgowchick Gives Glory to God !!!

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    Hi James, Jesus is God in my Bible too, he is also Lord of Lord, King of Kings He is my Lord God and saviour..AMEN... :D
     
  16. James the Persian

    James the Persian Dreptcredincios Crestin

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    Yes, there is a prophecy and no it hasn't yet been fulfilled in actuality. John the Baptist came in the ministry of Elijah foreshadowing Christ's coming but wasn't literally Elijah himself. Many Orthodox believe that Elijah will return to earth as one of the two witnesses of Revelations and fulfil the task of preparing for Christ's Second Coming, thus fulfilling the prophecy. This is not dogma, however, and we are free to believe or disbelieve in it (personally, I do). Still not sure what this has to do with Christ's divinity, though.

    James
     
  17. blueman

    blueman God's Warrior

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    The Christian belief that Jesus is part of the three-person God-head (God The Father, God The Son and God The Holy Spirit) is not anecdotal, but based on the fact that Jesus made reference to it Himself in the following scriptures:

    Before Abraham was "I AM" (John 8:58)

    I and My Father are one (John 10:30)

    The Father has committed all judgement to the Son (John 5:22)

    The Son of man is also the Lord of the Sabbath (Mark 2:28)

    Therefore the religious leaders sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God. (John 5:18)

    "My Father has been working up until now and I have also been working" (John 5:17) :)
     
  18. joeboonda

    joeboonda Well-Known Member

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    Not just used by early Christians, the word Emmanuel or Immanuel is found in the Old Testament also, so the Jewish people way before Christ and Christians used the word also, and it means God with us. But the many other verses along with these, that people have posted here, show that Jesus is God. Like water, comes in 3 forms, so does God, and, yes, it is difficult for us mere mortals to understand. To me, if a 'religion' claims to be Christian, yet their leaders or 'other' writings they hold higher than the Bible, make Jesus less than who the Bible claims him to be, is a false religion. PEACE!
     
  19. joeboonda

    joeboonda Well-Known Member

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    Yes, many Christians think that PERHAPS, the 2 prophets during the great tribulation will be none other than Moses and Elijah, many can probably get into better detail about that than I can, its not been on my front burner actualy.:)
     
  20. Ahmadi

    Ahmadi Member

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    So the Orthodox belief says that Elijah ascended to heaven literally as well as Jesus and the only difference is that one died and resurrected and the other didn't. My only problem now is the verse Matthew 17:11-13. Can you shed some light on these verses?

    Farhan
     
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