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Why christians believe that jesus is God?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by ahmedhelmy, Jul 26, 2005.

  1. James the Persian

    James the Persian Dreptcredincios Crestin

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    Well here you misuderstand who God the Son is in Christian belief. Adam was created by God, Christ was not. In Christianity, the belief is that God the Son, who Incarnated as Jesus Christ, was not created but is eternally begotten of God the Father. There was never a time when He was not.(Hence Him saying 'Before Abraham was, I am', and the whole beginning of John's Gospel). All three of the Divine Hypostases have existed eternally. This is very different from the creation of Adam.

    Belief that Christ was a created being is not Christianity but Arianism (a heresy promoted by Arius in the 4th century). Classical Arianism held that the Son was a lesser, created god that had not existed eternally. This heresy was defeated at the Council of Nicea but appears to be what you think we Christians believe - it is not. Neo-Arian groups (such as the Jehovah's Witnesses, who believe Christ was the Archangel Michael) have varying beliefs as to who exactly Christ was but all agree that He was a created being and hence are outside of the pale of historical Christianity.

    James
     
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  2. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    I see you have not done your homework ,it is a well known fact that this way of translating this scripture has been recognized as a fraud ,to support the trinity doctrine .many translations now translate the correct meaning
    For there are three witness bearers, the spirit and the water and the blood, and the three are in agreement...... thats more like it should be . now lets get it right . if you look on the biblegate way and read the footnotes of various bibles it will explain

     
  3. Ezzedean

    Ezzedean Active Member

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    *** Warning---- Long Post.. please read**

    This is a very interesting discussion, and before I write my post I'd like to say that I truly believe God is watching over us and is proud to see all of us believers seeking knowledge. Nothing is more beautiful in the eyes of God than the ones who seek wisdom.

    As a follower of Islam, I am sure it is clear to all of you by now what the muslim beliefs are on Isa (Jesus) peace be unto him. I would just like to show you some of the verses from the Quran which involve Jesus (PBUH).

    S.IV 156-159

    156
    That they rejected Faith; (They being the jewish people)
    That they uttered against Mary
    A Grave false charge;

    157
    That they said (in boast)
    "We killed Christ Jesus
    The Son of Mary
    The Apostle of God";
    But they Killed him not
    Nor crucified him.
    But so it was made
    To appear to them,
    And those who differ
    Therein are full of doubts,
    With no (certain) knowledge,
    But only conjecture to follow,
    For of a surety
    They killed him not;

    158
    Nay, God raised him up
    Unto Himself; and God
    Is Exalted in Power, Wise.

    I find these ayats very interesting and suitable for this discussion for a certain line which is in it. "Therein are full of doubts, with no certain knowledge". I read these arguments between Christians and Catholics as to who Jesus is or what REALLY happened. It shows to me that people are actually following something that they do not seem to know about. So many differences in opinions as to what actually happened is going on between people of the same faith; hence having no CERTAIN knowledge and being full of doubts. "But so it was made to appear to them" This statement is one which God states and recognizes the fact that a crucifiction did take place on that day, and it seemed as if it was Jesus (PBUH) on the cross but it wasnt. A man in his image. Is this so unbelievable? Is it so unbelievable to think that God protected his Holy creation from evil and suffering? Is it more unbelievable than God splitting the sea for moses? Or God sent the flood for Noah? In these stories when did these prophets suffer? God kept all his prophets safe from sinners and those against them, so why would he not do the same for Jesus (PBUH)?

    S.V 75
    They Do blasphame who say:
    "God is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ:
    "O Children of Israel !
    Worship God, my Lord
    And your Lord." Whoever
    Joins other gods with God, -
    God will forbid him
    The Garden.

    Before I write a comment on this line, this is soley the word of the Quran and what muslims believe. I am not saying that this is the truth althoug I personally believe it is. I am just trying to show the people why we muslims say what we say and where we get it from. These are some of many ayats on Isa (PBUH), and if you would like to read more I will post them.

    God makes mention to the fact that Jesus himself stressed the oneness of God. (See Sura V.75)
    So I decided to see this myself within the Bible, and here is what I found.

    Matthew 4:10
    Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan; for it is written. Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him ONLY shalt thou serve.

    Matthew 22:37-38

    Jesus said unto him. Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
    This is the first and great commandment.

    I find this next verse very interesting.
    Matthew 23:8
    But be not ye called Rabbi: for ONE is your master, EVEN CHRSIT, and all ye are bretheren.
    And call no man your Father upon the earth: for one is your father, WHICH IS IN HEAVEN.
    Neither be ye called masters: For ONE is your master, EVEN CHRIST.

    This is written in the new testement. Christ is clearly stating in this verse that no man on Earth will ever be God, and that God will never come to earth, you can only find God in heaven. When he explains this to these people, he makes it clear that these rules apply to him aswell. He also calls God OUR father, as much as he is Jesus's father, we are Gods sons, just as much as Jesus is.
    Just my point of view.

    I have to make mention to the fact that within the three main monotheistic religions the biggest and practically only major issue between them is Jesus, and no matter how much we argue about the situation none of us will be able to give a definitie answer. No one but Jesus himself can answer this question, and inshu' allah (God Willing) on the final Day we will all find out the answers to our questions, when Isa (PBUH) returns.

    Salam ou Alikum
    Ezzedean Fadel
     
  4. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    tell me , have you ever been told about the RANSOM sacrifice of JesusChrist,because that is why Jehovah God did not protect His son from being put to death he was sent here for a purpose to break up the works of the devil i think that the mainstream religions of christendom are missing the point about the ransom
    "In Adam all are dying," said the apostle Paul. (1 Corinthians 15:22) The ransom thus had to involve the death of the exact equal of Adam—a perfect human. (Romans 5:14) No other kind of creature could balance the scales of justice. Only a perfect human, someone not under the Adamic death sentence, could offer "a corresponding ransom"—one corresponding perfectly to Adam. (1 Timothy 2:6) "Through one man [Adam] sin entered into the world and death through sin." (Romans 5:12) And "since death is through a man," God provided for the redemption of mankind "through a man." (1 Corinthians 15:21) How?​

    Jehovah arranged to have a perfect man voluntarily sacrifice his life

     
  5. James the Persian

    James the Persian Dreptcredincios Crestin

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    May,

    Please could you explain your beliefs on this to me, because I'm afraid that I can't understand them at all. We don't actually understand Christ's sacrifice in the same way as most western Christians do but as I was brought up Protestant I personally am familiar with the juridical explanation of the Crucifixion, I just find it unsatisfactory. Your version of it makes no sense to me, however. In direct relation to the quote above, I must ask the following:

    1. If you believe that Christ was the Archangel Michael in human form (as you have said you do) how could he ever be considered a perfect man (man-angel, perhaps, but men are not angels)? It seems from your argument that if Christ wasn't a perfect man (like Adam before the fall) then His sacrifice would have been for nothing, yet your teachings seem to explicitly say He wasn't, unless you consider Adam to have been an Incarnate Archangel? I obviously disagree on both points but would like to at least try to understand you.

    2. If God arranged to have a man sacrifice himself for us, then in what way was the said sacrifice voluntary? It seems to me that if it was arranged by God then it could not have been a voluntary (or at least, entirely voluntary) act of the said man.

    Hopefully you can help me at least find some logical cohesion and consistency in your teachings, because at present I see none. Thanks.

    James
     
  6. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    I believe that Jesus christ was Gods first - born son created by Jehovah God himself. and this first=born son created everything else i also believe that Jehovah God sent this first-born son to the earth to die for us.i also believe that Jesus never claimed to be God almighty but only claimed to be Gods son
    do YOU say to me whom the Father sanctified and dispatched into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, I am God’s Son....John 10;36




    (Luke 1:35) In answer the angel said to her: "Holy spirit will come upon you, and power of the Most High will overshadow you. For that reason also what is born will be called holy, God’s Son.





    (John 5:18) On this account, indeed, the Jews began seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath but he was also calling God his own Father, making himself equal to God......so did Jesus say he was equal to God ?no he did not ,the Jews said that ,not Jesus ,he said he was Gods son.just because the Jews said he was making himself equal did not mean that he was

    John 17:5, RS: "[In prayer Jesus said:] Father, glorify thou me in thy own presence with the glory which I had with thee before the world was made." (Also John 8:23)yes Jesus was with his Father before the world was made .so he is not just any son he is the first-born son

    Michael means "Who Is Like God?" The name evidently designates Michael as the one who takes the lead in upholding Jehovah’s sovereignty and destroying God’s enemies.

    the evidence indicates that the Son of God was known as Michael before he came to earth and is known also by that name since his return to heaven where he resides as the glorified spirit Son of God....he was a perfect man because he did not inherit the Adamic sin from Adam, so only he could offer up himself as a sacrifice to buy back what Adam lost ....everlasting life for mankind as it was supposed to be , until Adam lost it that is. so Jesus being a perfect man balanced the scales

    That is why, just as through one man (Adam)sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned...romans 5;12

    Jesus was not powerless before his executioners. He said: "I surrender my soul . . . No man has taken it away from me, but I surrender it of my own initiative." (John 10:17, 18) He declined to appeal for angelic forces to intervene on his behalf. (Matt. 26:53, 54) Though wicked men were permitted to carry out their schemes in having him put to death, his death was truly sacrificial...because he came to earth to do his Fathers will

    His shed blood has value to provide deliverance for others. "The Son of man came, not to be ministered to, but to minister and to give his soul a ransom in exchange for many." (Mark 10:45) So his death was far more than a case of martyrdom because of refusal to compromise his beliefs.....it served a purpose

    For the wages sin pays is death, but the gift God gives is everlasting life by Christ Jesus our Lord...romans 6;23...yes we can get back everlasting life


    (1 John 2:2) And he is a propitiatory sacrifice for our sins, yet not for ours only but also for the whole world’s

     
  7. James the Persian

    James the Persian Dreptcredincios Crestin

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    May,

    I'm afraid I still don't get it. All the Bible quotes in the world are not going to clear up a logical contradiction. I can logically, as well as scripturally, argue why Christ was both fully Man and fully God and why He had to be so to effect our salvation. You seem only to be able to rely on scriptural arguments.

    James
     
  8. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    We call this a mystery, or a conundrum. There is a solution, but we just can't see it yet. We either believe God or we don't.
     
  9. James the Persian

    James the Persian Dreptcredincios Crestin

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    I quite agree, but not in this case. May said, basically, that only a perfect man could pay the ransom for Adam's sin so only Christ could do that, but actually Christ was an incarnate Archangel (which logically implies that he wasn't a perfect man). I'd note that this is NOT a mystery revealed to us by God (or at least I still don't buy any of the obscure interpretations made to support it by the JWs), but a logical contradiction made by the teachings in the JW tradition of Scriptural interpretation. There's a big difference. In the former case I must take it on faith (and nobody could ever accuse the Orthodox of being averse to leaving Mystery as a mystery) but in the latter I'm quite justified, I feel, in asking someone to explain how their tradition can be made to make sense.

    James
     
  10. joeboonda

    joeboonda Well-Known Member

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    I have not read all the posts, but will answer the question why we believe Jesus is God, very quickly.

    Mathew 1:23 "Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

    Oh, Jesus is NOT an angel, He is the only begotten Son of God, begotten not made, he is part of the trinity; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and these three are one. I John 5:7.
     
  11. Ahmadi

    Ahmadi Member

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    Can you explain more about Elijah being alive after his "ascension". Can you please rewrite the quotation of 2 CH 21:12-15? I don't know what it refers to.
    Also, you still haven't answered my question about the prophecy regarding the return of Elijah. How was that prophecy fulfilled? Or, what do you understand of the prophecy?
     
  12. Ahmadi

    Ahmadi Member

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    First of all, I thank you for explaining why Christians believe that Jesus sacrificed himself for the sins of mankind and I think it was a decent argument based on your beliefs. It also helped me better understand your point of view.:)
    Please provide quotations of the places where Jesus actually claims to be "God" and not just the "son of God". It has already been explained that the title "Son of God" has been given to many people other than Jesus and I think that it would be pointless to make the argument that Jesus was the only, real, literal, actual "Son of God" - therefore, he must be God. This argument is not satisfactory to me because I think that the words "only, real, literal, actual" before the words "son of God" were only added to support the trinity doctrince and the concept of Jesus dying for the sins of mankind. There is a need for a distinction between ordinary sons of God and Jesus, son of God and quite frankly, I believe that there is none.
     
  13. Ahmadi

    Ahmadi Member

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    Where did Jesus claim to be "GOD"? ....and yes, he showed all the miracles, and his prophecies were fulfilled. In the same way, there are a whole lot of prophecies of Muhammad (saw) that came true. In the same way, every prophet that came to this planet has shown miracles and given accurate prophecies but they are not God. Also, those who were 'eyewitnesses' for his resurrection were told this:
    "See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself; touch me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have" (Luke 24:39).
     
  14. Ahmadi

    Ahmadi Member

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    I must apologize for some of these Muslims who, out of lack of knowledge or perhaps hatred, condemn all of the Bible to be fake. This is certainly not true. In fact, I don't disagree with most of the verses presented in this thread and our differences are only in concepts and history, not verses of the Bible.
     
  15. Ahmadi

    Ahmadi Member

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    Since there were wtinesses to the gods of the greeks, it is evidence enough that there is a God - the only thing is that there teaching became corrupted probably because it was largely passed orally throughout the generations. Secondly, it's not testimony alone which proves the truthfulness of a prophet, like Jesus (as). It's about his character - his honesty, genrosity, kindness, forgiveness, truthfulness, etc. along with his miracles, prophecies, etc.
     
  16. Ahmadi

    Ahmadi Member

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    First of all, in this section of your post, you are far, far away from the present debate. We are debating whether Jesus is God, not whether he was on the cross or not. You seem eager to debate the subject that Jesus was not on the cross. You can debate this with me by going to the following thread: Why is Jesus the returning Messiah?

    Well, I don't think that Jesus (as) is ever coming back to solve the issue. However, you might be in doubt and you might not be able to give a 'definite answer' but I think I can. About the return of Jesus, let's discuss it in the thread given above.
     
  17. Ahmadi

    Ahmadi Member

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    Well, James, I have yet to see the logical arguments that Christ is both man and God. Why don't you provide some? Also, how about some historical ones as well? It seems that history has an entirely different point of view.
     
  18. James the Persian

    James the Persian Dreptcredincios Crestin

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    Well, I'm not quite sure what you're after, particularly on the historical arguments. How can human history say anything about who God is? Maybe you could elaborate.

    As to logical arguments, I'm afraid that to explain those I would have to make an extremely long post explaining Orthodox soteriology as I doubt you are familiar with it. I will give a brief and almost certainly unsatisfactory reply here, however, and hope that you will ask questions to allow me to elaborate further - I have no intention of posting an essay. I will also provide a link to the words of St. Athanasios on the Incarnation as he was far wiser than I.

    Basically, the Orthodox argument is as follows. Man became mortal and prone to sin because Adam turned from God in his disobedience, severing the connection between God and man. As a result of this mankind became slaves to sin and subject to death (we do not believe in inherited guilt, though - nobody is born sinful). The only way for the relationship between God and man to be restored, therefore, was if God was Incarnated on earth with a human nature which was achieved through the obedience of the Theotokos (Mary). By taking on our humanity Christ divinised human nature restoring us to our relationship with God and, by His death and Resurrection he vanquished death destroying its hold over man. His self-sacrifice completed the work of the Incarnation but was not a sacrifice to appease God (this is the juridical concept we have never accepted). As man's salvation could only be effected by the Incarnation of God as man (unless Christ had both natures the bridge could not be rebuilt, if you like) it logically follows that Christ was indeed both fully God (in the Hypostasis of God the Son) and fully man (in the human nature of Jesus Christ).

    Obviously, if you do not accept any of these premises the logic will make no sense (this is the case with all logical arguments, though). But my point with regards to May's beliefs was that even if, for the sake of argument, I accept the premises she offered I cannot make JW beliefs make logical sense. I was hoping May might be able to clear this up but all I got was scripture attempting to justify the premises on which the faulty logic was based. I hope people understand the distinction.

    If you want to see what a great Church Father wrote on the Incarnation, you can find it here:

    http://www.philthompson.net/pages/library/ontheincarnation.html

    Hope this helps.

    James
     
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  19. TashaN

    TashaN Veteran Member
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    can you show me please where did he claim in the bible that he is a God ???

    SHOW ME !
     
  20. TashaN

    TashaN Veteran Member
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    * The indispensable "VIRGIN" in the above verse has now been replaced in the RSV with the phrase "a young woman," which is the correct translation of the Hebrew word almah. Almah is the word which has occurred all along in the Hebrew text and NOT bethulah which means VIRGIN. This correction is only to be found in the English language translation, as the RSV is only published in this tongue. For the African and the Afrikaner, the Arab and the Zulu, in fact, in the 1 500 other languages of the world, Christians are made to continue to swallow the misnomer "VIRGIN."

    * "Jesus is the only begotten son of God, begotten not made," is an adjunct of the orthodox catechism, leaning for support on the following:
    For God so loved the world, that he gave his only BEGOTTEN son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

    (John 3:16 - AV)

    No priest worth his cloth would fail to quote "the only BEGOTTEN of the Father!" when preaching to a prospective convert. But this fabrication — "BEGOTTEN" — has now been unceremoniously excised by the Bible Revisers, without a word of excuse. They are as silent as church-mice and would not draw the reader's attention to their furtive excision. This blasphemous word "BEGOTTEN" was another of the many such interpolations in the "Holy Bible."
     
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