1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Why christians believe that jesus is God?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by ahmedhelmy, Jul 26, 2005.

  1. ahmedhelmy

    ahmedhelmy Member

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2005
    Messages:
    20
    Ratings:
    +0
    Dear all,

    Please debate with me, how come christians believe that God is Jesus or even jesus is the son of God. Isnot God created everything and everyone. Then he must be different. He cannot be human. Jesus Have miracles, yes, but all prohphets had miracles too. The miracles werenot because of them, but the miracles were because of God who gave it to them. Also if Jesus is God, How come he is being killed in Christians view. In muslims view, God have honoured Jesus in another miracle and saved him from crossification, until he will come again by the end of the world. Only Mohamed who came after Jesus have cleared this issue. Also, there are 2 bibles which were banned becuase they support the idea that Jesus was Humen being and never being crossifed, even more they support that there will be prohpet after Jesus who is Mohamed.

    I donot understand, this is very simple logic. What are the christians logic about that.

    I donot mean any offence to anyone. I respect everyone and every Religion, But give me an explainination of that
     
  2. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2004
    Messages:
    28,675
    Ratings:
    +2,658
    ahmedhelmy,

    First, I need to clear up an error on your part. Jesus is not God.
    It would take me virtually all day to describe Christianity to you - I suggest, that if you are interested in learning what we believe, that you read the Bible;
    The Nicene Creed is, I think, one prayer that will perhaps give you an understanding of what we believe in:-


    The Nicene Creed
    We believe in one God,
    the Father, the Almighty,
    of all that is, seen and unseen.

    We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
    the only Son of God,
    eternally begotten of the Father,
    God from God, Light from Light,
    true God from true God,
    begotten, not made,
    of one Being with the Father.

    Through him all things were made.

    For us and for our salvation
    he came down from heaven:
    by the power of the Holy Spirit
    he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
    and was made man.

    For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
    he suffered death and was buried.

    On the third day he rose again
    in accordance with the Scriptures;
    he ascended into heaven
    and is seated at the right hand of the Father.

    He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
    and his kingdom will have no end.

    We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
    who proceeds from the Father [ and the Son. ]

    With the Father and the Son he is worshipped and glorified.

    He has spoken through the Prophets.

    We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.

    We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.

    We look for the resurrection of the dead,
    and the life of the world to come. Amen.

    You might like to look at this website:- http://www.catholic.org/clife/prayers/beliefs.php which shows the basic beliefs of Catholicism, and from which site I copied the Nicene Creed for you.:)
     
  3. Melody

    Melody Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2004
    Messages:
    3,261
    Ratings:
    +558
    Why not? God can do whatever He wants to do...because He's God. If He is omniscient, then surely manifesting Himself in human form is a snap.

    I can only tell you what I believe because I'm finding that not all Christians believe the same. My belief says that, until Christ, God demanded blood sacrifice for sins. Christ became the final and ultimate sacrifice for the sins of all humans to the end of time. We become a recipient of this sacrifice when we accept Christ. Why would God manifest in human form and sacrifice Himself? Because a perfect sacrifice was the only one that would do...and only God is perfect.

    For other religions there might be 2 bibles....not for Christians. Bibles that support the idea that Jesus was just a human being and/or prophet are not christian bibles and have no bearing on our belief.
     
  4. Melody

    Melody Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2004
    Messages:
    3,261
    Ratings:
    +558
    Michel, respectfully, but Jesus *is* God according to Christian belief. Otherwise, those who worship Christ and accept his sacrifice would seem to be guilty of worshiping a second god.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  5. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2004
    Messages:
    28,675
    Ratings:
    +2,658
    Oh silly me; what a twit! Thank you Melody - I spent so long trying to think how to write something that would not take up pages to our friend tha my words got into a twist. What a fool I feel.:eek:
     
  6. James the Persian

    James the Persian Dreptcredincios Crestin

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2005
    Messages:
    4,416
    Ratings:
    +656
    Yeah, I thought that was a bit weird too, though I guess he was meaning that Christ was God the Son rather than God entire. It could have been a little clearer, though.

    Also, Michel, do you mind if I ask that when you claim something is the Nicene Creed you at least render the filioque in brackets? Those words 'and the Son' are not part of the Nicene Creed but are a later, and uncannonical, addition made at the Council of Toledo. You may not think it's a big issue, but for us it is. It's still one of the two major reasons why reunification with the RCC is impossible. Thanks.

    James
     
  7. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2004
    Messages:
    28,675
    Ratings:
    +2,658
     
  8. Terrywoodenpic

    Terrywoodenpic Oldest Heretic

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2005
    Messages:
    15,269
    Ratings:
    +2,981
    Religion:
    Anglican...heretic
    The problem with your arguement here ,is that God has no limits,and that includes not being limited by time.
    For us Mohamed did come after Jesus. But God is not in time and sees all of time at once. Just as he can see you now, he is speaking to both Mohamed and Jesus.
    When he spoke to/through Abraham Moses Jesus and Mohamed he was speaking in terms of what that particular time and people could understand.
    I can not agree that Mohamed is the Last prophet for the same reason. God is un limited and should he want to speak through a prophet to another peoples, just as he has done in our past , he will do so.
    we can not by our established beliefs put limits on God.

    Terry
    ______________________________
    Blessed are those who bring peace, they shall be children of God
     
    • Like Like x 1
  9. James the Persian

    James the Persian Dreptcredincios Crestin

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2005
    Messages:
    4,416
    Ratings:
    +656
    Don't worry about it. I just get a little touchy when people say 'This is the Nicene Creed...' and then quote the RC version that is in large part responsible for the Schism in the first place. If people think that the filioque was in the original it tends to make us look like we're being unreasonable when we insist it should be removed.

    Because you quoted the Creed (albeit the Toledo version) I knew perfectly well what you were saying about Christ's divinity and hopefully it will help our muslim friend understand. If there's one thing that seems to be a common thread in my discussions with people of his faith it's a complete misunderstanding of the Trinity (one muslim once even told me it was God, Jesus and Mary!) Of course, I can't blame them for their misunderstandings - there's probably loads about Islam I don't have a clue about either.

    James
     
  10. may

    may Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2004
    Messages:
    3,665
    Ratings:
    +110
    THE Bible calls Jesus the "only-begotten Son" of God. (John 1:14; 3:16, 18; 1 John 4:9) the nicene creed is a manmade creed and not bible based

    So Jesus, the only-begotten Son, had a beginning to his life. And Almighty God can rightly be called his Begetter, or Father, in the same sense that an earthly father, like Abraham, begets a son. (Hebrews 11:17) Hence, when the Bible speaks of God as the "Father" of Jesus, it means what it says—that they are two separate individuals. God is the senior. Jesus is the junior—in time, position, power, and knowledge

    the "only-begotten Son," who was the only one directly begotten by God.—Colossians 1:15-17that is what the bible teaches ,it does not teach the trinity doctrine

     
  11. James the Persian

    James the Persian Dreptcredincios Crestin

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2005
    Messages:
    4,416
    Ratings:
    +656
    I understand your point (whilst vehemently disagreeing that Mohammed was a prophet) but how do you account for the fact that our Scriptures clearly state that false prophets would arise after Christ and that if anyone, even an angel (which is pertinent re. Mohammed), should come with another Gospel we should ignore them as their teachings are false. Doesn't this preclude Christians from recognising Mohammed as a prophet? I think it does.

    James
     
  12. James the Persian

    James the Persian Dreptcredincios Crestin

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2005
    Messages:
    4,416
    Ratings:
    +656
    But ahmedhelmy asked why Christians believe Christ is God, not why Arians don't.

    James
     
  13. blueman

    blueman God's Warrior

    Joined:
    May 14, 2005
    Messages:
    1,066
    Ratings:
    +66
    Jesus is part of the three-person God-Head (God The Father, God The Son and God The Holy Spirit). Unlike any other prophet, as muslims will relegate Him to, He claimed to be God in the flesh (John 8:58 "Before Abraham was "I AM") and in John 5:18, John writes "Therefore the religious leaders sought all the more to kill Him, not only because He broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Him equal with God". He never referred to Himself as a son of God, but the Son of God.

    Unlike any other prophet, Jesus claimed to be the judge of all men stating in John 5:22 "The Father judges no one, but has committed all judgement to the Son". Unlike any other prophet, Jesus demanded equal honor with the Father, for in John 5:23, "He stated "All should honor the Son, just as they honor the Father". "He who does not honor the Son, does not honor the Father who sent Him".

    Unlike any other prophet, Jesus claimed to dispense eternal life. In John 5:24, Jesus said "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears my Word and believes in Him who sent me, has everlasting life and shall not come into judgement, but has passed from death to life". In John 14:6, Jesus said, "Iam the Way, the Truth and The Life, no man cometh unto the Father but by Me".

    Based on historical record as delineated in the scriptures, no other prophet made these claims or was shown worthy of these claims like Jesus. Either you believe through faith that He was the second person of the God-head in the flesh or relegate Him to being a nice man, a prophet of God, but seriously deranged in His thinking regarding His status in God's eyes. :)
     
  14. blueman

    blueman God's Warrior

    Joined:
    May 14, 2005
    Messages:
    1,066
    Ratings:
    +66
    Although the word Trinity is not referenced in the bible there are many references to God The , God The Son and God The Holy Spririt. Jesus was not created by God, but existed with God at the beginning, as did the Holy Spirit. In the famous Genesis passage (1:26) "Let Us make man in our own image", He was speaking to God The Son and God The Holy Spirit. :)
     
  15. Terrywoodenpic

    Terrywoodenpic Oldest Heretic

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2005
    Messages:
    15,269
    Ratings:
    +2,981
    Religion:
    Anglican...heretic
    I would agree that I find it Hard to believe that Mahomed was a prophet, Particularly since his teachings are Quite un-Christ like. But as I can not be SURE, I was giving the benefit of my doubt.
    The Scriptures clearly said there would be false profits, unfortunately they did not say who. So whilst I would not in anyway follow teachings I do not believe, I will let Time and their own works speak for them.

    Terry
    ____________________________________-
    Blessed are those who bring peace, they shall be children of God
     
  16. ahmedhelmy

    ahmedhelmy Member

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2005
    Messages:
    20
    Ratings:
    +0
    If you say Mohamed's teaching are are unchrist teachings. What are the teaching Mohamed then?What do you know about Mohamed's teaching?Even what are the miracle of Mohamed, as each prophet has a miracle

    One more thing I donot know much of bible, I read some but not in details.
    Adam was created by god without a father and mother. Is he the son of God?The same for Jesus, but he had mother.Ive was created from Adam, still is he the daughter of god. Adam made a sin, are we blamed on the sin of adam. Or God will punish us on our sins. How come there should be a sacrifice of a god for Humen beings.
    How come a person become unsinnful by just confessing his sin to a priest. Who should punish god or christ.
    Donot you see that we return to the ages of stone worhsiping when you talk to a statue or picture of christ or mary or even kissing a cross.
    When Christinay begain to florish and who florished it. How many were the followers of christ, aren't they 12.
    Where are the bibles of the other followers. Are bibles just words written by followers who wrote what christ say exactly or Every word in Bible are said by god through Jesus.

    Again How come son of God or even God dies. Even how come god let his child to die as a sacrifice for humen being. Is God is a humen being like us. Does God have Humens as the only creature who created . If he had a god from Humen beings, then there should be other Gods for other beings, why specially humen God Choose them. The point is God Is much higher than all of these things and he cannot be compared to humens.

    What happen the mountain when moses asked God to see him?The mountain were destroyed. Then how can we call a humen to be a god. I thing we return to Roman , Greek, even egyptain Bliefs, to make the kings something different. And I think this was the way used to make christinaty some much popular, as it it is a religion delivered by a God.

    Again What do you know about Islam and Mohamed. Mohamed never called himself a god, even he never called himself to be different from humen being. Moses were the same, Ibrahim were the same. All prophets were the same.

    I didnot have any convencing answer to my questions until now, even the versuses quoted from bibles. Please give me a convincing answer just straightforward why Jesus is a God and then died in your view?

    thanks a lot

    Ahmed
     
  17. ahmedhelmy

    ahmedhelmy Member

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2005
    Messages:
    20
    Ratings:
    +0
    One More Thing about this issue. If jesus was sacrified for all sins of Humen. Then Humen can do whatever they want as there is no punishment by god, they can kill, steal money ....Doesnot what u say is a bit confusing. How come this could be true?Why then there is law for punishing bad people, God had forgive everyone because of Jesus.

    In islam, I will be the only person ounished by God becuase what i did, and no one let me away from God's punishiment even the prophets. No one will forgive me except God. Which is more logical this line or the sacrifce of Jesus???
     
  18. jonny

    jonny Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2005
    Messages:
    6,260
    Ratings:
    +639
    I think that they key word in your question is "believe." We believe that Jesus is a God for the same reason that Muslims believe that Mohamed was a prophet, because we have faith in his teachings. Christ taught that he was the Son of God and that we could only be saved through his sacrifice.

    Could you prove that Mohamed was a prophet without using scripture or his teachings? Of couse not. You cannot prove things of faith and you cannot convince someone with facts that things you believe are true. Conversion to Christ comes through the Holy Spirit.
     
  19. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 15, 2004
    Messages:
    36,767
    Ratings:
    +10,108
    Religion:
    Judaism
    Being "delineated in the scriptures" hardly warrants being classified as "historical record".
     
  20. blueman

    blueman God's Warrior

    Joined:
    May 14, 2005
    Messages:
    1,066
    Ratings:
    +66
    Jesus died a physical death to redeem the sins of mankind, that was His purpose of being God-incarnate (in the flesh). He was the sacred Lamb, sacrificed for the sins of man, that whosover accepted Him as Lord, would have everlasting life. Is that clear enough? He's not dead today, because He was resurrected on the third day after he was cruxified. It's pretty easy for you and others that don't believe this to be true to disregard Scripture, but that same scripture is a biblical blueprint of the life, death and ressurection of jesus, written between 30 and 70 A.D., well within the lifetimes of those who witnessed it, not some 600 years later, when the prophet Mohammed claimed that the angel Gabriel almost choked the life out of him and gave an illiterate man the revelation of the Quran that in a number of ways deviates from the New Testament Gospels written 600 years earlier. :)
     
Loading...