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Why Bahai

firedragon

Veteran Member
I know this is a forum and it's hard to have long conversations. Dialogues also have clarifications and need to be cut into pieces so the reader, like myself, won't have a chucnk of information and try to figure out exactly what you're trying to say.

It's like christians dumping verses and expect you to "see the light." Dialogues don't work that way. It takes patience, interest, and clarification on both ends. Without that, what's the use of conversing (or debating with others for that matter).

My original question was how was Lover's comment and post from the sutta (the book of discourses or Dhamma, case in point) a contradiction to each other?

It seemed like you were refuting his post with another post in the same Dhamma (Buddha's discourses on Practice). Unless the Dhamma contradicts each other (I wouldn't be surprised since it's not "holy" scriptures), what was the point you were making with Loverofhumanity?

That's all I wanted to know.

Peace.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
A billion Hindus got it wrong? A billion Christians got it wrong? A billion Muslims got it wrong? But a million Baha'is got it right?
That's the stuff that helps unify everyone.

This life is what it is. All the Messengers of God have given a Message like a seed planted amongst few. That is God's way and Baha'u'llah said it has not changed.

Still people will choose their own life path and may never consider the fruit on the new tree. But the planted seed will still grow and more and more who partake of the fruit can only offer for others to try.

From the fruit of this tree one sees that none of the Messengers are wrong. As a Christian we can embrace Krishna, Buddha, Muhammad along with Christ and explore all that is good.

As a Hindu we can embrace Abrahamic Faiths and learn from what was offered. We can find our unity in our Diversity. No caste no higher class of people. We can embrace science and dissapate superstition. We can learn that mind, spirit, soul, sight and hearing are derived from single source that finds diversity in the use of those instruments.

You are free to see what is offered is not a path to unity, but all that eat of the fruit do find and work for unity, across all the divides of clinging to Name's.

Thus if this Faith, this path is wrong, then which is right, which will achieve the oneness of Humanity?

Many billions pray for that to happen each day, it is intrinsic to their faith, so what are they prepared to do, to achieve this vision?

Wait? Wait like many billions still do. It could be the Million will become many billions.

Stay well and happy Vinayaka. I wish you always the best in life.

Regards Tony
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Theoretically, wouldn't a Buddha's "reappearance" suggest that he or she had undergone a really huge, involuntary set-back?

--Just curious about the oddity of loverofhumanity's proposal

Yes. The purpose of enlightenment isn't to go back into rebirth. It's defeating the purpose. GOOD point.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
The sun returns every day and although it’s the same sun yet we call it the sun of Monday or Tuesday or Wednesday but in reality there is only one sun.

The Book of Certitude by Baha’u’llah explains the oneness of all the Great Beings. They have differing missions and personalities and outward appearances but their essence and purpose is one and th same.
But it is the same Sun. It is not the same physical person coming back. The "essence" and "purpose" is the same? No, they arguably had different purposes. Plus, they all were not "perfectly" polished mirrors. Good guys, they followed their God, but, some of them made mistakes too. Like Abraham and Moses. They say Jesus was perfect and sinless, but was Muhammad? I'm sure Muslims think so. But wasn't he in battles? And didn't kill and maim people? But, I guess, if he did, it was for the good?
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
The sun returns every day and although it’s the same sun yet we call it the sun of Monday or Tuesday or Wednesday but in reality there is only one sun.

The Book of Certitude by Baha’u’llah explains the oneness of all the Great Beings. They have differing missions and personalities and outward appearances but their essence and purpose is one and th same.
But it is the same Sun. It is not the same physical person coming back. The "essence" and "purpose" is the same? No, they arguably had different purposes. Plus, they all were not "perfectly" polished mirrors. Good guys, they followed their God, but, some of them made mistakes too. Like Abraham and Moses. They say Jesus was perfect and sinless, but was Muhammad? I'm sure Muslims think so. But wasn't he in battles? And didn't kill and maim people? But, I guess, if he did, it was for the good?
I believe it’s true from my personal investigation and you differ and that’s fine. We are all entitled to our views. My belief is Buddha was truly enlightened and taught truth. And we read from the Words of Buddha in our Houses of Worship throughout the world each week. We revere the Buddha and His teachings.

The Dhammapada is a wonderful book full of gems of wisdom. There’s everything to like about Buddhism. I’ve lived in a Buddhist country and village and it’s a beautiful teaching and people.

I have nothing but praise for Buddha as I follow Him also.
Since all the messengers knew the real truth from the one God, it would have been nice if Moses and Jesus gave a little inkling that Buddhism was also true and from the same God. But no, they made out their religions to be special and the only true ones.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
To me all religions are my religions and all faiths my faith. I can not deny the truth in other religions just as I cannot deny my own and if I were to deny any of the major religions then I would in fact be denying my own religion because I believe truth is in all religions not just one of them or not just in my own.

Thanks for calling me brother. I consider it a privilege.
Unfortunately, that is completely misleading. You believe in all the major religions as defined in the Baha'i Writings. The usual Baha'i reinterpretations... Hinduism and Krishna did not teach reincarnation. In the Bible... Creation and the Flood are not literal. Ishmael, not Isaac, was taken to be sacrificed. Jesus did not physically rise from the dead. His body is dead. His spirit is alive. Therefore, all the stories about the resurrected Jesus are to be taken symbolically.

So sure, you do not deny those other religions, you just reinterpret them to fit the Baha'i Faith.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
In this thread brother I do not intend at all to argue or debate the validity of your faith, I just think its stupid and very very childish to discuss and debate someones faith without having some good knowledge in the idea and depth of their faith. See, we grow up understanding and training in our respective theologies. And of course some of us are trained in another theology. I won't mince my words but in my case I was born in a traditional Sunni Muslim family and society and educated in it. In school we grew up deeply studying Buddhism as curricula. Later we end up studying Christianity and the Bible and have a deep relationship in higher studies. But never the Bahai faith. As a matter of fact, not even Hinduism or many other faiths to be frank. Thats the reason.

All my questions to you are with the intent of understanding the faith.

If the intent is to understand this faith then the story of Vahid is a must;

Siyyid Yahya-i-Darabi (Vahid) – Bahai Chronicles

Vahid was a very knowledgeable and respected Muslim Divine sent by the Shah to sort out the Claim made by the Bab.

No one had greater knowledge than Vahid and he was aware of this when he first met the Bab. A friend warned him not to approach the Bab with any pride in that knowledge. Vahid was granted 3 interviews.

No one can approach Gods Messenger with pride of knowledge. They are either the giver of knowledge or they are not. The Word they reveal is the standard we spire to, or it is not.

As such that is how we must approach and just search for the Truth. Is what Baha'u'llah said applicable to the age we live in and do the explanatiins find support in previous scripture. That support may be a new way of thinking about scripture that other people have given interpretation.

'O our Lord, with ourselves have we dealt unjustly: if Thou forgive us not and have not pity on us, we shall surely be of those who perish.’

Regards Tony
 
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CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Theology and hair-splitting achieves nothing. Spiritually we need to put our differences aside and accept each other with true sincerity without condition. This is what all the Great Teachers have taught.
Yes, beautiful poetic Baha'i speak... we are the leaves of one tree. The flowers of one garden. But... we were all taught to believe different things. Many of us questioned those things and went out and searched for better or greater truths. Some found truth in the religious teachings from India or China or from Persia. Or, some rediscovered Jesus and swear he is the only truth.

Now we have the Baha'i Faith. How does it square with those other beliefs that we have studied and learned and, sometimes, believed was the absolute truth. Baha'is are asking as to believe them as having the absolute truth. That is what Baha'is are doing and saying. It might very well be the truth. But, if the Baha'i Faith is the truth, then all our old beliefs are wrong and not the absolute truth. There are some things or many things wrong with them... according to the Baha'i Faith.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Unfortunately, that is completely misleading. You believe in all the major religions as defined in the Baha'i Writings. The usual Baha'i reinterpretations... Hinduism and Krishna did not teach reincarnation. In the Bible... Creation and the Flood are not literal. Ishmael, not Isaac, was taken to be sacrificed. Jesus did not physically rise from the dead. His body is dead. His spirit is alive. Therefore, all the stories about the resurrected Jesus are to be taken symbolically.

So sure, you do not deny those other religions, you just reinterpret them to fit the Baha'i Faith.

It is just so much easier to love everyone, accept, even cherish all the differences, rather than to try to make everything the same. I get along perfectly well with Christians, with Muslims, with atheists. There is simply no need to go tell others you believe just as they do, when it's so blatantly obvious you don't. It is just belief, after all. Trying to incorporate people in this way, by telling then how they think, just turns everyone away, doesn't pull them any closer at all. It truly defeats its supposed purpose.

But that isn't about to happen in this situation.
 
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Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
This life is what it is. All the Messengers of God have given a Message like a seed planted amongst few. That is God's way and Baha'u'llah said it has not changed.

Still people will choose their own life path and may never consider the fruit on the new tree. But the planted seed will still grow and more and more who partake of the fruit can only offer for others to try.

From the fruit of this tree one sees that none of the Messengers are wrong. As a Christian we can embrace Krishna, Buddha, Muhammad along with Christ and explore all that is good.

As a Hindu we can embrace Abrahamic Faiths and learn from what was offered. We can find our unity in our Diversity. No caste no higher class of people. We can embrace science and dissapate superstition. We can learn that mind, spirit, soul, sight and hearing are derived from single source that finds diversity in the use of those instruments.

You are free to see what is offered is not a path to unity, but all that eat of the fruit do find and work for unity, across all the divides of clinging to Name's.

Thus if this Faith, this path is wrong, then which is right, which will achieve the oneness of Humanity?

Many billions pray for that to happen each day, it is intrinsic to their faith, so what are they prepared to do, to achieve this vision?

Wait? Wait like many billions still do. It could be the Million will become many billions.

Stay well and happy Vinayaka. I wish you always the best in life.

Regards Tony

You're not embracing a single one of those religions though. What you are embracing is the Baha'i misinterpretation of those religions. That's all fine and dandy for you, but for me, I need to embrace those religions as they are. When I speak with a Christian, I want to hear what he thinks, how he believes, how this has helped him in his life, how Jesus is the life of his life. Same with Baha'i. I want to hear about your religion, and just your religion, how Baha'u'llah's words have changed your life. It's interesting in this great world of diversity. I don't want to reinterpret it to suit my agenda. It's fine as it is. What I don't want to hear is how your religion views other religions, and the constant refrain that your religion is better than mine, the latest revelation, and all that. I am not saying that my religion is better than yours. What I am saying is that my religion is different than yours.

Everyone on this planet has the right to believe what they believe without others telling then that they got it wrong. Those over a billion Muslims, over a billion Christians, and nearly a billion Hindus didn't all get it wrong. What they all did do is analyse or think for themselves, or get born into a particular faith that suits them. As did the million Baha'i, the Jews, the atheists, and all of humanity.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
You're not embracing a single one of those religions though. What you are embracing is the Baha'i misinterpretation of those religions. That's all fine and dandy for you, but for me, I need to embrace those religions as they are. When I speak with a Christian, I want to hear what he thinks, how he believes, how this has helped him in his life, how Jesus is the life of his life. Same with Baha'i. I want to hear about your religion, and just your religion, how Baha'u'llah's words have changed your life. It's interesting in this great world of diversity. I don't want to reinterpret it to suit my agenda. It's fine as it is. What I don't want to hear is how your religion views other religions, and the constant refrain that your religion is better than mine, the latest revelation, and all that. I am not saying that my religion is better than yours. What I am saying is that my religion is different than yours.

Everyone on this planet has the right to believe what they believe without others telling then that they got it wrong. Those over a billion Muslims, over a billion Christians, and nearly a billion Hindus didn't all get it wrong. What they all did do is analyse or think for themselves, or get born into a particular faith that suits them. As did the million Baha'i, the Jews, the atheists, and all of humanity.

I see it is but the veil of name's that prevents this. I see that clinging to a name is like partaking of one colour of the rainbow. I see we need to embrace all colours. I see each Messenger is the rainbow, all the light waves. If we stick to one wave we have not embraced the rainbow.

I see when we lift that veil, we have the same source. We find what it is to be follower of the Light.

Regards Tony
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
I see it is but the veil of name's that prevents this. I see that clinging to a name is like partaking of one colour of the rainbow. I see we need to embrace all colours. I see each Messenger is the rainbow, all the light waves. If we stick to one wave we have not embraced the rainbow.

I see when we lift that veil, we have the same source. We find what it is to be follower of the Light.

What name are you clinging to? Baha'u'llah, I presume. Personally, I'm not clinging to any name. All religions are fine by me. I'm not all religions though. They're all very very different, thank goodness. Can't imagine having one kind of vegetable only.
 

Moz

Religion. A pox on all their Houses.
Judas Iscariot was more than a little dodgy, don't you think!? But seriously, I agree Islam became corrupted early on and Baha'is believe Muhammad intended for His son-in-law Ali to become His successor. That view is shared by Shi'a Islam. However once Christians had their hands on significant power it didn't take long for the rot to set in, did it? The Muslims simply had a lot more power and influence early on. They hadn't had the experience of being chastened through 300 years of persecution until the Roman Emperor Constantine became a Christian. That event alone changed everything for Christianity for better and for worse. So I don't believe the early corruption in Islam as opposed to the delayed corruption in Christianity was a result of any deficiency in what Muhammad taught.

Thank you for your post. Its provided a lot for us to think about.
Hi

Thank you for the responses.
The fact that the christians were presecuted for their first three hundred years was not merely some fortuitous event that allowed them to be be free of political influence. They paid for this choice with their lives quite often.They were persecuted because they chose to be true to the message of peace that Jesus had proclaimed. They actually lived in a volatile corner of the Roman Imperium, in a time ripe for revolt, and many of the initial followers of the messiah were looking for a Warrior/King to do exactly what Isalm later did but the Christians rejected the course of organised violence until, as you point out, the political powers grabbed the faith.

I began this trying to work out what the Bahai's mean when referring to their message as a progression of the faiths that came before. This progression does not seem to be the case, except in the most ephemeral, non committing and cynical way possible. All the Bahai's that have communicated with me on these threads are very open about their lack of knowledge regarding the earlier messages and prophets that are supposedly part of a their own faith. The obvious contradictions between the message of Jesus and the one that Muhhammud delivered should be a clear indication that they do not flow from each other, how can one endorse both.

It seems the Bahai answer is that all the original followers of the great teachers, somehow missed the true message of their masters and recorded their messages in an imperfect way, either in the recording, as with the supposed corruption of the Bible or the conduct and interpretation of those inspired by the teaching.
The Bahai then get to cherry pick any concept they like by claiming progression of revelation, while at the same time rejecting the foundational understanding by the adherents of those faiths as error. It is a nice trick, but it does not seem work if confronted with anything other than the most basic understanding of those faiths. Anyway thank you for the time, effort and the information you supplied i do appreciate it, i think i will let this investigation of Bahai drop. It is an impossible task to discuss the Bahai view of the preceeding religions when their is no clear understanding of what they teach.The way is see it is ...... If Jesus spoke truth.... no need for the Bahai. If Jesus lied then the Bahai are wrong for claiming him to be a prophet.

Peace.
 

Terry Sampson

Well-Known Member
Confusing?!?! Why not open a thread for this instead of creating confusion in this thread.

My dilemma: To (sigh) or to LOL, that is the question.

The Bahai faith is quite unfamiliar to me. If anyone could enlighten me why I should follow this stream of thought I will be truly grateful.

Mind you I started reading about the Bahai faith only recently so I am a novice. And the question is because I see many from the faith in this forum and not having the knowledge is not too good. I dont know if this post is valid.

These were my questions to Adrian @adrian009(Terry's note to @shunyadragon ) The following link is a link to the thread which I opened. I shared that link with firedragon, because I thought he might find it useful as he set out on his journey to explore the Baha'i religion. You don't like how I handled that? Report me to the Moderators.

Questions from a non-Baha'i

Thank you so much. I shall follow that thread. Cheers.

Adrian answered my questions, so that thread won't grow longer, ... unless you or someone else decides to add to it.

I would have written there, but I want that a Christian should defend his religion. I intend to address the points raised there about Islam when one has sort of finished defending Christianity.

I am finished writing in that thread, and defend my beliefs in another thread elsewhere.

About Bahaism?

(Terry's note to @shunyadragon: This second link is a link I shared with paarsurrey in response to his question to me. You don't like how I handled that? Maybe you'd like to report me to the Moderators and put me on your "Ignore" list?
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
What name are you clinging to? Baha'u'llah, I presume. Personally, I'm not clinging to any name. All religions are fine by me. I'm not all religions though. They're all very very different, thank goodness. Can't imagine having one kind of vegetable only.

Baha'u'llah is a Title, it means the 'Glory of God' or 'Glory of the Lord'. That Glory is all of God's Messengers, all the Messages they have given. Thus we find God in all those Names and all those Messages.

It is man that says that each does not understand the other Message, it is man that divides.

When we turn to find Truth in them all, then all those Truths mould back to the one source. If I talk of Baha'u'llah, I talk of all Messengers, the Love does not divide it is all encompassing. That Love is inclusive of all humanity, as we issue forth from them.

I began this trying to work out what the Bahai's 33's when referring to their message as a progression of the faiths that came before. This progression does not seem to be the case

I see the above somewhat answers your query

Regards Tony
 
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TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
You should know that I don't believe in messengers, by now. Why then do you keep telling me about them. Would you like me to tell you about the planet Renusiat?

Have you noticed that when we discuss, it is 95% about Baha'i, maybe 3% about the weather in Queensland, and nothing at all about Vinayaka, or his faith?

So is it a fair conclusion to say "With Baha'i folk, it's always about Baha'i."

Surely you have other interests.

I am but a moth smitten by the flame'
If I fly in, can I be put to blame?

Thanks for the chat.

Regards Tony
 
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