• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Why atheism and atheists are just wrong

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
PruePhillip said:
and all its nihilist, sexual, drug addled
baggage.
There are studies showing that the Bible Belt has more of this than anyone else.

PruePhillip said:
My stats below demonstrate that what we term "good"
changes.
In many of those cases, it's about changing BACK. We let a bunch of hypocritical prudes run our lives and it ruined them. It's like the stories often in the news where an anti-gay pastor ends up in a sexual incident or many with someone of the same sex. Just because your religious leaders said it was bad doesn't mean it is. In fact the louder they shout it, I'm willing to bet 10 bucks they'll be in the news soon.

PruePhillip said:
One day someone who supports polygamy
will be "good" and someone who opposes it will be
called "bad" or "polyphobic" or whatever.
LOL. Haven't looked too hard at the bible, have you?

I don't judge the bible by any "bible belt" or the Roman Catholic Church, for instance.

Same with "hypocritical prudes" - if prudes were not hypocrites you would just hate
them for being "prudes." We have a whole society of secular prudes now - just visit
your local campus. We don't condemn secularism for these PC lunatics.

There is no polygamy in the New Testament, as far as I know.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The bible has no comment to make on the shape of the earth as far as I know.
Since you can't be bothered looking at that link I've given you, here's what it says about biblical cosmology. 1, 2, 9, 10, 13, 16, 18, 21, 24, 26, 28 and 30 all portray a flat earth. So does the subsidence of the water in the Noah story. ─

1. Flat earth. The firmament (sky) is a fixed dome.
Genesis 1
2 The earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the Spirit of God was moving over the face of the waters. ... 6 And God said, “Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.” 7 And God made the firmament and separated the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament. And it was so. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day.

2. Geocentry. The earth is flat and the sun goes round it.
Joshua 10
12 Then spoke Joshua to the LORD in the day when the LORD gave the Amorites over to the men of Israel; and he said in the sight of Israel, “Sun, stand thou still at Gibeon, and thou Moon in the valley of Aijalon.” 13 And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the nation took vengeance on their enemies. Is this not written in the Book of Jashar? The sun stayed in the midst of heaven, and did not hasten to go down for about a whole day.

3. Geocentry, earth immovable.
1 Chronicles 16:
29 Ascribe to the LORD the glory due his name; bring an offering, and come before him! Worship the LORD in holy array; 30 tremble before him, all the earth; yea, the world stands firm, never to be moved.

4. Geocentry, earth immovable.
Job 9
6 who shakes the earth out of its place, and its pillars tremble; 7 who commands the sun, and it does not rise; who seals up the stars; 8 who alone stretched out the heavens, and trampled the waves of the sea;

5. The firmament (sky) is a fixed dome
Job 22
12 “Is not God high in the heavens? See the highest stars, how lofty they are! 13 Therefore you say, ‘What does God know? Can he judge through the deep darkness? 14 Thick clouds enwrap him, so that he does not see, and he walks on the vault of heaven.’

6. The dome of the sky rests on pillars.
Job 26:
11 “The pillars of heaven tremble, and are astounded at his rebuke.”

7. The firmament (sky) is a fixed dome.
Job 37
18 Can you, like him, spread out the skies, hard as a molten mirror?

8. The stars are adjacent to each other and the earth on the fixed dome.
Job 38
7 when the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

9. The earth is flat.
Job 38:
13 That it might take hold of the skirts of the earth, and the wicked be shaken out of it?

10. The earth is flat. The sun goes round it.
Psalm 19
4 yet their voice goes out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them he has set a tent for the sun, 5 which comes forth like a bridegroom leaving his chamber, and like a strong man runs its course with joy. 6 Its rising is from the end of the heavens, and its circuit to the end of them; and there is nothing hid from its heat.

11. Geocentry. The earth is fixed.
Psalm 93:
1 The LORD reigns; he is robed in majesty; the LORD is robed, he is girded with strength. Yea, the world is established; it shall never be moved;

12. Geocentry. The earth is fixed.
Psalm 96
10 Say among the nations, “The LORD reigns! Yea, the world is established, it shall never be moved; he will judge the peoples with equity.”

13. Geocentry. The earth is fixed. The earth is flat and rests on foundations.
Psalm 102
25 Of old thou didst lay the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of thy hands.

14. Geocentry. The earth is fixed.
Psalm 104
5 Thou didst set the earth on its foundations, so that it should never be shaken.

15. Geocentry. The earth is fixed. The earth is flat.
Ecclesiastes 1:
5 “The sun rises and the sun goes down, and hastens to the place where it rises.”

16. The earth is flat, like a table.
Isaiah 11:
12 And he will raise an ensign for the nations, and will assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

17. The firmament (sky) is a fixed dome.
Isaiah 14
13 You said in your heart, ‘I will ascend to heaven; above the stars of God I will set my throne on high; I will sit on the mount of assembly in the far north; 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will make myself like the Most High.’

18. The earth is flat, like a plate.
Isaiah 40
22 It is he who sits above the circle of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers; who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them like a tent to dwell in;

19. The heavens go round the earth.
Isaiah 45
12 I made the earth, and created man upon it; it was my hands that stretched out the heavens, and I commanded all their host.

20. Geocentry. The earth is fixed.
Isaiah 48
13 My hand laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand spread out the heavens; when I call to them, they stand forth together.

21. The earth is flat like a table.
Jeremiah 16:
19 O LORD, my strength, and my stronghold, my refuge in the day of trouble, to thee shall the nations come from the ends of the earth, and say, Our fathers have inherited naught but lies, worthless and things in which there is no profit.

22. The firmament (sky) is a fixed dome.
Ezekiel 1
22 Over the heads of the living creatures there was the likeness of a firmament, shining like crystal, spread out above their heads. 23 And under the firmament their wings were stretched out straight, one toward another; and each creature had two wings covering its body. 24 And when they went, I heard the sound of their wings like the sound of many waters, like the thunder of the Almighty, a sound of tumult like the sound of a host; when they stood still, they let down their wings. 25 And there came a voice from above the firmament over their heads; when they stood still, they let down their wings. 26 And above the firmament over their heads there was the likeness of a throne, in appearance like sapphire; and seated above the likeness of a throne was a likeness as it were of a human form.

23. The firmament (sky) is a fixed dome.
Ezekiel 10
1 Then I looked, and behold, on the firmament that was over the heads of the cherubim there appeared above them something like a sapphire, in form resembling a throne.

24. The earth is flat.
Daniel 4
10 The visions of my head as I lay in bed were these: I saw, and behold, a tree in the midst of the earth; and its height was great. 11 The tree grew and became strong, and its top reached to heaven, and it was visible to the end of the whole earth

25. The firmament (sky) is a fixed dome.
Amos 9:
6 who builds his upper chambers in the heavens and founds his vault upon the earth,

26. The earth is flat.
Matthew 4
8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and the glory of them.

27. The firmament (sky) is a fixed dome. The stars are affixed to the firmament. If they come loose they will fall to earth.
Matthew 24
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken;

28. The earth is flat.
Revelation 1
7 Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, every one who pierced him; and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen.

29. The firmament (sky) is a fixed dome. The stars are affixed to it. If they come loose they will fall to earth. The earth is flat.
Revelation 6
13 and the stars of the sky fell to the earth as the fig tree sheds its winter fruit when shaken by a gale; 14 the sky vanished like a scroll that is rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. 15 Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the generals and the rich and the strong, and every one, slave and free, hid in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains, 16 calling to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb;

30. The earth is flat like a table.
Revelation 7:
1 After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth, that no wind might blow on earth or sea, or against any tree.
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member

But... WE STILL BELIEVE THE SUN GOES AROUND THE EARTH.
Proof? When we say "sunrise" and "sunset" and "before the sun was up" etc..
Maybe, like the stars singing, we are reading allegory.
The "four corners of the earth" contradicts the earth as a round plate, touching
the dome of the sky.
Maybe "four corners" simply means north, south, east and west.

This is ant-Christian copy and paste stuff. Lots of it is highly disingenuous.
Here's one which comes to mind.
The new Israel, brought out of the nations and returned to Israel (Ezekiel 38,39)
in the latter days when the Gentiles time is finished (collapse of the churches etc..)
Israel is attacked by Magog to the "uttermost north" of Israel.
Uttermost - to the poles you could say, top of the world.
But Israel's mysterious, unnamed, unrecognized ally, attacks Magog - "sending
fire" (?) "from the north."
Say what? Is Magog the "uttermost" north or not?
How would another nation "send fire" upon a nation that encompasses the north?
Across the north pole. That will be the route of a nuclear exchange between Russia
and America.
Ezekiel certainly doesn't read like your typical bow and arrow war.

Just say'n.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
But... WE STILL BELIEVE THE SUN GOES AROUND THE EARTH.
Proof? When we say "sunrise" and "sunset" and "before the sun was up" etc..
Maybe, like the stars singing, we are reading allegory.
Nope. We're reading ancient cosmology.
The "four corners of the earth" contradicts the earth as a round plate, touching
the dome of the sky.
[ Hardly the only time the bible contradicts itself. The softer expression is that both models are found.)
This is ant-Christian copy and paste stuff.
Its origin is twofold. First, roughly 20 of them were from my notes, gleanings from here and there over time; then before I posted them I checked the net, which yielded another ten or so. I'm a most discriminating cut-and-paster, I assure you, and by no means took everything on offer.
Lots of it is highly disingenuous.
What's disingenuous is to pretend those ancient dudes knew (hence wrote) anything more than the cosmology of their day.

And I still don't know why you'd want them to.

Just to show the bible's somehow magic? It ain't. It's simply two collections of writings by various authors at various times for various purposes. It's of considerable historical interest, and now and then relevant to the present because religion is still an active political force, though noticeably in decay in the First World.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
G-d is Eternal*, and this is one of His attributes as told by Him in Quran, in other words one has accepted that G-d is lasting or existing forever; without end or beginning.One cannot deny this attribute of G-d on the basis of "know"ing . Right, please?

Someone would have to prove it first.

The context of the OP was that atheists are wrong because they don't believe in something without evidence.

Let's say that someone comes up to you and says "The Great Pumpkin exists. Every Halloween night, the Great Pumpkin rises up out of the pumpkin patch and brings toys to all the good children of the world."

Up until that point, you had never heard of "The Great Pumpkin," and it never even dawned on you that such a being could actually exist. Someone just came up to you and proposed this belief totally out of the blue, and you are being asked if you believe it or not. Would you believe it just because someone told you it was true, without any evidence whatsoever? Would you tell someone that they're "wrong" for choosing not to believe it?
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Someone would have to prove it first.

The context of the OP was that atheists are wrong because they don't believe in something without evidence.

Let's say that someone comes up to you and says "The Great Pumpkin exists. Every Halloween night, the Great Pumpkin rises up out of the pumpkin patch and brings toys to all the good children of the world."

Up until that point, you had never heard of "The Great Pumpkin," and it never even dawned on you that such a being could actually exist. Someone just came up to you and proposed this belief totally out of the blue, and you are being asked if you believe it or not. Would you believe it just because someone told you it was true, without any evidence whatsoever? Would you tell someone that they're "wrong" for choosing not to believe it?
"atheists are wrong because they don't believe in something without evidence."

I don't buy that.
Atheism people as I understand start plunging into a position/no-position without evidence of its truth in the very first place. Right, please?
My post #295 refers.
Regards
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
"atheists are wrong because they don't believe in something without evidence."

I don't buy that.
Atheism people as I understand start plunging into a position/no-position without evidence of its truth in the very first place. Right, please?
My post #295 refers.
Regards

I'm not entirely sure what you're asking here. Atheists are simply refraining from drawing a conclusion when there's insufficient evidence for doing so.

The only actual "position" being taken is the fundamental principle that one shouldn't jump to conclusions until one has all the facts. It's a principle that we practice in science, academia, law ("innocent until proven guilty"), and other areas of society.

If that seems to be a reasonable and logical approach to things, why would it suddenly be considered unreasonable when applied to concepts of "God" and religion?
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
You can expect that all you want, but so far science cannot even investigate the subject, because it has no reach beyond the material realm. And I see no reason to believe it will soon be able to.

That's ok since it is only the physical realm that can be shown to have any affect on or reality. That which has no affect on the material realm can be safety ignored.

Also, religion is an enormously important and universal phenomena among we humans, such that no one of us could possibly know what all it has provided to the human experience.

Ok, what was religion, besides entertainment, provided which couldn't have otherwise been obtained through other means?
 

MonkeyFire

Well-Known Member
Peace comes from within, dont seek it without. One must save itself as the anger and bigotry are your own. Just let go.
 
Last edited:

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
I'm an agnostic, I don't have any "beliefs" about gods. My interest in the subject is based on it's value and importance to humanity, and to myself, as a spiritual/psychological phenomenon.

I have the same interest sans religion. I have nothing against religion except since there is no validation/verification religion can be whatever one is capable of imagining. You create your religion, I can create my religion, someone else can create an entirely different religion. You can have one god, many gods, no gods. Whatever you want.

The material realm also holds endless possibilities. One can imagine the universe works in just about whatever way one sees fits. The only difference I suppose is that in order for an idea to get real acceptance it needs to be validated and show to be consistent. Spiritual needs neither be validated nor shown to be consistent. The only thing science really adds is a method of validation, IMO.
 

Yerda

Veteran Member
Hi. Interesting OP.

I think this is a fundamental problem with the way atheists think about God. I think for them to be true to themselves, they should not use the word God in any sentence as if they know exactly how the word God must be defined. I can't tell you how many times I've seen atheists use the word God in a sentence where the word God is an "object" with limitations to be experience in reality the same way you and I can hold and have an experience of an "apple".
To be fair to atheists, we're normally responding to concepts put to us by theists. Perhaps the problem is that from theist to theist the ideas of God are often (but not always) very vague, contradictory or just plain silly.

dfnj said:
As far as I am concerned atheists have it all wrong. There is no such thing as an objective reality.
If this is a mistake it's one that almost everyone makes.

dfnj said:
Atheists have an absolute dogmatic belief in philosophical materialism. To suggest the scientific evidence is supporting the idea that reality is strangely spiritual is completely taboo. It is the greatest possible blasphemy within their religion of philosophical materialism because it requires the atheist to do a complete overhaul of their entire belief system. Most atheist will not even admit there's and issue. The denial just goes to prove the age old adage, "A skunk can't smell his own stink."
There are a fair few of us who just want to know as much truth as possible. Wherever that takes us is where we'll go. I'm happy to launch materialism/physicalism for something better if you can show it to me.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Quote, "I expect science will resolve those mysteries."
That's what I have been discussing here - FAITH that science will sort out
the ultimate answers. Science can ONLY study the natural world - what
preceded it, how it came to be before physics and why it's here is purely
non-science.

Science is a method of validation. Whatever you happen to believe, you can use science to validate that belief. Of course if you don't care about validation, you are free to believe as you wish. I've see this validation process work over and over again. Science can validate what exists. It can not validate what does not exist.

Why is science here? IMO, because religion, spirituality didn't require validation. Folks could claim whatever they wanted as truth. Unfortunately with a bit of charisma and forceful attention people believed these claims.

Some folks got it in their head that maybe we should think about validating these claims of truth. It was found that a lot of the religious/spiritual claims couldn't be validated. So up to you, trust the claims that can't be validated or trust the ones that can.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
That's ok since it is only the physical realm that can be shown to have any affect on or reality. That which has no affect on the material realm can be safety ignored.

Ok, what was religion, besides entertainment, provided which couldn't have otherwise been obtained through other means?
I'm not going to argue with such absurd bias.
 

QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
QuestioningMind said:
Go ahead and give me your definition of god and the verifiable evidence that you have for this god and I'll let you know if I have any good reason to believe in it. Thus far after 57 years of life, I have yet to come across anyone who can provide me with a definition and the evidence that I would require for belief. Let's see if you are any different.
paarsurrey said:
"evidence"

What one understands from the natural word "evidence", one's own understanding not from a lexicon, please?

One asked for a definition (of G-d) and "evidence", so I want to know one's own understanding of the natural word "evidence" used by one to enable others to provide it. Right, please?

Regards

Verifiable support for a stated claim.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
I'm not going to argue with such absurd bias.

What bias? Anything that affect the material realm can be measured. If it can be measured then science can be used to validate it. There's no bias in that, it is just how it works.

Other than that, I was just asking a question. A question isn't argumentative, it's just a question.
 

Yerda

Veteran Member
What bias? Anything that affect the material realm can be measured. If it can be measured then science can be used to validate it. There's no bias in that, it is just how it works.

Other than that, I was just asking a question. A question isn't argumentative, it's just a question.
Would you admit that your intentions can affect the material realm? Can they be measured?
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
One asked for a definition (of G-d) and "evidence", so I want to know one's own understanding of the natural word "evidence" used by one to enable others to provide it. Right, please?

Regards

Evidence is something that can be shown which leaves little room to doubt the clam. One of course can continue to doubt, but as more is shown that supports the claim it become less and less reasonable to continue to doubt.

Generally, IMO, the best way to approach any claim is to remain skeptical and continue to remain skeptical of the evidence offered as well. At some point, enough has been shown to support the claim that it is no longer reasonable to remain skeptical.

So if you make a claim, my initial response is going to be skeptical. It is going to remain skeptical until you've been able to show enough, IMO which admittedly can be a bit arbitrary, that it is no longer reasonable to disbelieve your claim.

So evidence is what you show to support whatever it is your are claiming.

The Bible, other scripture, testimony, is pretty weak evidence in that it is all easily doubted. Humans are just not very reliable when it comes to the truth, even when their intentions are good. So physical evidence, something whose existence can't be disputed is the best type of evidence to use to support your claim.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
I'm not entirely sure what you're asking here. Atheists are simply refraining from drawing a conclusion when there's insufficient evidence for doing so.

The only actual "position" being taken is the fundamental principle that one shouldn't jump to conclusions until one has all the facts. It's a principle that we practice in science, academia, law ("innocent until proven guilty"), and other areas of society.

If that seems to be a reasonable and logical approach to things, why would it suddenly be considered unreasonable when applied to concepts of "God" and religion?
Then please provide all "evidences","proofs" and positive and reasonable arguments one has for Worldview/No-Worldview, position/no-position of "Atheism" irrespective if any Religion exists or does not exist and without reference to any Religion, please. Right, please?

Regards
 

Yerda

Veteran Member
Only if I act on them. I know a few people who have some intention that they never follow through on. Intentions which are not acted on don't affect anything.
Ok. But intentions, desires, thoughts, etc seem to be able to affect the material realm without being measurable. We can just about infer their existence in other people but that seems to be about as far as it goes.

Would you agree?

Btw, I'm not going to spring a gotcha or anything. I'm genuinely puzzled/interested is all.
 
Top