Why aren't you in danger?

[agorman]

I've been reading the Satanic Bible by Anton Lavey and read the following in another thread by fnord, which I liked:

• Seek insight, knowledge and wisdom over faith
• Embrace the carnality of the human body
• Reject submission to external/undefined forces or 'gods'
• Seek the sovereignty of ones own individuality (versus seeking to become part of a larger whole)
• Seek mastery of the subjective (inner) self
• Seek mastery of the objective (outer) world (ie, enough material success to satisfy the above)
• Regard oneself as important versus eternally indebted and flawed

So in general what you guys intend to accomplish sounds very good to me. But there's one little detail... you call evil entities and use an inverted pentagram. Oops! Isn't that inviting troubles?

Why do I say "evil" entities? Because even the archetype of Satan is of a being which is hostile to Humanity in general. And I'm not speaking of god Pan. I mean the classic, bad cop/public prosecutor/district attorney of the Demiurge. Then why do you call such beings? Is that really necessary?

Mind you, I'm not a fundie Christian; I'm in no religion right now; I'm just trying to make my own path and for years I had pretty hard experiences with dark beings in the astral plane (you could call them nightmares) while I was vulnerable to them. I know those shadows can ruin someone's life in a myriad of unexpected ways.

So, I'm puzzled by your dealing with such beings. One thing is becoming a rebel and wanting to improve your life just by using the power of your own true self (which is something I admire!) and another is dealing with hostile, highly intelligent entities, thousands of years old that could crush you like an ant anytime they wish, just because they despise humans. Demons, evil aliens, Titans, Old Ones, whatever, is it worth the risk of calling them?

Please clarify me this.

 

[Quintessence]

I'm not a Satanist, but I honor what some would call "evil entities/gods" (I do not label them that way) because I feel they are as deserving of respect and reverence as any other aspect of reality. All things are universally sacred in my book, so all things are due their respectful nod. It doesn't mean I agree with them. Nor does it mean I like them. But I do recognize there are things I can learn from them. Things that can make me stronger, and things that can give me perspective and wisdom. Provided you have the strength of will to be the one in charge, the danger of forming relationships with "evil entities/gods" is overrated.

That has been my experience, at any rate; I understand that others have different experiences. It makes sense to me to tailor your path to your experiences of the otherworlds, and if you have had trouble with these things, it may be wise to steer clear. Now is not the time, and there may never be a time for you.

 

[agorman]

So let's say you call the "gods of yin" in a Universe of yin yang?

 

[Quintessence]

I'm not sure entirely what you are asking, but if I understand correctly, let me clarify that I honor many aspects of reality, not just the ones some label "evil" or "dark." I'm not one-sidedly yin. There are some Neopagans who would not give respect to the adversarial aspects of reality; I'm not one of them. And it's why I sometimes pop into this DIR.

 

[agorman]

Ok Quintessence I value your answers but... you say you're Neopagan, not Satanic or Sethian, etc. I'd like the opinion of a Sethian or Satanic please. Do you think the same as Quintessence?

 

[Quintessence]

Pardon; you didn't specify you wanted responses from Satanists only and given I've experience with "dark" gods/entities, I thought you would appreciate some general perspective on why one might choose to work with or honor them. Given the independent nature of Satanic practitioners, I doubt there is going to be a uniform answer to your question from them. They each have their own personal reasons, and the reasons vary.

 

[agorman]

No I didn't really want responses "only" from Satanists, but I'd also like to know their point of views; since they're they ones obviously calling Satan. Except those who consider Satan an impersonal energy (in that case they would "use" Satan instead of calling him I suppose).

 

[Erebus]

So, I'm puzzled by your dealing with such beings. One thing is becoming a rebel and wanting to improve your life just by using the power of your own true self (which is something I admire!) and another is dealing with hostile, highly intelligent entities, thousands of years old that could crush you like an ant anytime they wish, just because they despise humans. Demons, evil aliens, Titans, Old Ones, whatever, is it worth the risk of calling them?

Please clarify me this.

Well one theory I have is that when working with spirits* you tend to call on the powers you identify with. A typical LHP/black magician tends not to see Satan and his ilk as wholly destructive and certainly not wholly evil (few indeed believe that evil exists objectively speaking) and so they call on more benevolent powers while using a name others associate with evil. With this in mind the magician calls on a power that might be Satan in their view but would be Thoth, Aphrodite, Cernunnos etc in the view of another.
That's not to say these gods/demons are cute little fairies eager to grant your every wish. Accidents can and do happen so it pays to be cautious. At the same time though I don't think anybody in their right mind would call on something they fully expect to destroy them (I'm not talking destruction of elements of the psyche here, I mean total destruction).
This likely leaves the question "then why call on gods associated with darkness in the first place?" and this has been covered quite a few times in this DIR. I won't derail your topic by going over it again here, though if you're interested and have trouble finding what you're looking for in other topics I'd be happy to briefly elaborate for you.

*replace spirits with subconscious/shadow/thoughtforms as desired.

 

[1137]

I don't see what there is to fear in entities that only exist in the mind.

 

[Adramelek]

So in general what you guys intend to accomplish sounds very good to me. But there's one little detail... you call evil entities and use an inverted pentagram. Oops! Isn't that inviting troubles?

As a Setian, to me "good" and "evil" are purely subjective terms, I never use them to describe any entity I might want to conjure, be it Satan, Lucifer, Set, Leviathan, Cthulhu, Nyarlathotep, etc., and so forth. The inverse Pentagram symbolizes the Will to Magic and creation and change exalted above stasis and rest. Darkness represents the great mysteries of existence, it is considered evil or bad only by those who fear the realms of the unknown. We Setians embrace the Darkness because we embrace and explore the great mysteries of the realms of psyche-centric awareness. I suggest a good study of the official Temple of Set website www.xeper.org in order to gain an understanding of Setian philosophy. We who practice the Black Arts do not fear the Powers of Darkness because we are in league and are at One with Them. If you have any further questions for me personally agorman, please feel free to ask, I will answer them to the best of my knowledge and understanding.

Xeper.
/Adramelek\
Gnothi seauton!

 

[Kemble]

Good questions agorman, and I think there are some assumptions shaping your question. About Satan, the word has been for centuries a form of discourse by conservative, restrictive forces on more liberal humanistic (pro-science, pro-life, individualism, liberty) streams of thought in order to marginalize them. It's tricky to pinpoint the personal meanings behind every person's symbolic framework that considers themselves Satanists -- you get mature folks that understand how to break from the monotony of their dominant culture through symbols or discourses marginalized and separated by that culture (Satan can be one; and these folks usually have real stakes in the world and find some form of success in life), you get immature folks that see destructive criminal behavior (which are also socially marginalized behaviors, yet harmful/bad ones) as a valid form of recasting their identity (these folks end up in jail, mental institutions, or dead if they don't grow out of it).

More importantly on one of your assumptions many folks within the Left Hand Path would question the real distinction between astral worlds and dream worlds, in which case there is a good dose of private subjective coloring involved. That is to say, entities or supernatural figures are considered to be most probably personal mental constructs rather than ontological beings crackling through the aether of the underworld, or whatever, and say more about your current mental state than anything about the universe "out there."

 

[The Sum of Awe]

I don't see what there is to fear in entities that only exist in the mind.

That which resides in the mind may be the most dangerous of all

 

[1137]

But the OP seems to imply we are dealing with external forces that threaten us. However, these supernatural agents are a product of the mind that we are capable of controlling. So there is little threat to those committed to overcoming such "dangers". However it's certainly not for everyone, your own mind can destroy you.

 

[Quintessence]

You're speaking as if this is a matter of fact, Doors. Understand that some of us take the otherworlds seriously and don't regard them as merely a product of human minds.

 

[1137]

Oh I understand. Sometimes I think gravity is a myth and we aren't being pulled down so much as pushed

 

[ScottySatan]

But the OP seems to imply we are dealing with external forces that threaten us.

But we are. I wonder, how much does it matter what the nature of the threat is, other than for the purposes of dealing with it.

 

[ScottySatan]

Please clarify me this.

Can you simplify the question, please?

 

[agorman]

The inverse Pentagram symbolizes the Will to Magic and creation and change exalted above stasis and rest.

Well Andramelek, what an odd interpretation; for what I've seen in the astral, the meaning is more like the power of the spirit over the four elements. You turn the pentagram upside down and you're screwed; because you're symbolizing our normal state of being ruled by Nature.

I've shown an inverted pentagram to an astral shadow and they love it. I've shown an upright pentagram to them and they either flee or burn. Most of them can't resist it. And they were aggressive, tricky, menacing; they weren't people with intentions to teach or balance. They were annoyed by a pesky human trying to find out the truth of higher planes and if they had to shoot me, torture me, rape me, inject me an anesthetic for not being conscious in the astral plane (sometimes I even woke up with needle marks) or whatever, they had no qualms. I had 6 years of almost daily nightmares with those damn shadows.

The only good experience I had with beings bringing darkness, was in a dream where I called the Goddess (the Demiurge's wife I suppose) and she came with fairies dressed in black to heal me because I had raised too much luminous energy. But the Goddess and the fairies were white, luminous (although not dazzling). Fairies looked like small flying women actually.

BTW I swear I don't smoke, do drugs or drink. Just tried astral projection many times.

Can you simplify the question, please?

Why do you call hostile entities if they may be harmful for ALL humans? Is it worth the risk, when all you want is to gradually free your true self?

I wonder how can anyone become a friend of dark beings if all they ever done at least to me, were causing troubles. I've actually met Satan in dreams. The first few times he appeared as a tall half-lion, half-human, black eyed, piranha teeth entity. All he did was growling to me and menacing.

And the last time I met him in the astral I was in a parking lot; he appeared as a normal human being, told me he was "El Diablo" and actually taught me something that made me trust more in God (Actually Krishna; I was Hinduist at the time). That was odd; the Devil teaching me something for my own good?Seems I must have passed some sort of test. Anyway, I wouldn't ever call him.

BTW, I don't know why people tend to go to the extremes of light or dark, when you have to realize both are important to maintain balance.

And to all that say all that it's just my imagination, there are physicists that say there are 11 dimensions. You can say that the aggressiveness I met in dreams was attracted by my own aggressiveness, but saying external demons aren't real, is to me as wrong as saying there is no bad people in the World.

 

[Gjallarhorn]

To put it in psychological terms, people go towards the light when they deal with their persona or ego. People venture into the dark when they deal with their shadow. What good comes from dealing with the ego beyond mental masturbation?

 

[1137]

Step 1) stop doing drugs. Step two would be for the OP to gain a deeper insight into these psychological realms. Obviously the OP is not a big proponent of of an inverted pentagram so should not use it in personal symbolism. But it also must be realized this isn't objective, the pentagram has no objective meaning, and yes there is a difference between objective meaning and commonly agreed upon subjective meaning. These crazy experiments are happening in the mind, not in some magical astral plane. Being unable to recognize this will both stunt "spiritual" growth as well as possibly implying a serious mental condition.