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Why are physicists interested in studying eastern religions?

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
J. Robert Oppenheimer, who led the Manhattan Project to develop the world’s first nuclear weapons, learned Sanskrit so he could read the Bhagavad Gita in its original form. When he witnessed the first atom bomb explode, he famously recalled a verse from the Gita, where Krishna shows Arjuna his true form. He translated the verse into English thus: “Now I am become death, the destroyer of worlds.”

Yeah... I have a major problem with that reference.

The Sanskrit is
śrī-bhagavān uvāca
kālo ’smi loka-kṣaya-kṛit pravṛiddho
lokān samāhartum iha pravṛittaḥ
ṛite ’pi tvāṁ na bhaviṣyanti sarve
ye ’vasthitāḥ pratyanīkeṣu yodhāḥ


The translation is The Blessed Lord said: Time I am, destroyer of the worlds, and I have come to engage all people. With the exception of you [Arjuna and his four brothers], all the soldiers here on both sides will be slain.

Krishna is teaching Arjuna about the futility of mourning for those who are already dead because of time. All things die in due time, it is inevitable and inescapable, and senseless to grieve over what is already in motion. Time destroys all things and persons.

Oppenheimer completely bungled it. The verse in question is mistranslated and misused, taken out of context, a sound bite. I don’t know if he did it for dramatic effect or simply didn’t understand the verse.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Why are physicists interested in studying eastern religions?:):confused:Please move this post.If it is in the wrong place.:)

Physicists as well as everyone else in any field has long been studying religions and religious people have been studying physics and other things in many fields.

This is the story of human history and will be so in the future.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Yeah... I have a major problem with that reference.

The Sanskrit is
śrī-bhagavān uvāca
kālo ’smi loka-kṣaya-kṛit pravṛiddho
lokān samāhartum iha pravṛittaḥ
ṛite ’pi tvāṁ na bhaviṣyanti sarve
ye ’vasthitāḥ pratyanīkeṣu yodhāḥ


The translation is The Blessed Lord said: Time I am, destroyer of the worlds, and I have come to engage all people. With the exception of you [Arjuna and his four brothers], all the soldiers here on both sides will be slain.

Krishna is teaching Arjuna about the futility of mourning for those who are already dead because of time. All things die in due time, it is inevitable and inescapable, and senseless to grieve over what is already in motion. Time destroys all things and persons.

Oppenheimer completely bungled it. The verse in question is mistranslated and misused, taken out of context, a sound bite. I don’t know if he did it for dramatic effect or simply didn’t understand the verse.

How did he mistranslate it?
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
As far as I know physicists in general aren't particularly interested in eastern religion but some of the big dogs from the early years of the quantum revolution were apparently partial to a bit of Hinduism.

Schrodinger in particular seems to have had some delightfully wacky ideas about the world (I personally love wacky ideas - some of the stuff Schrodnger wrote would get you laughed out of Deepak Chopra talk) but Heisenberg, Bohr and Oppenheimer appear to have expressed some interest in aspects of Hindu philosophy.

On the topic, I think there might be something to the idea that thinking about the universe deeply can lead a person to find some ideas expressed in religious philosophy kinda beautiful, even if it isn't something that is factually correct. The idea of the universe as a unified field and every event as updates on the state of a single universal system certainly don't sound a million miles from some of the things I've read from mystics of many tradition. Physical mysticism might well be a thing.
Yes, I'm sure that's right. At the start of the QM revolution, the pioneers must have been struggling to find ways of thinking about what the new observations and theoretical constructions were telling them about the nature of the world. I am far from dismissive of the role philosophy can play in science: indeed think its role is essential.

But yes, Schrödinger (and Wigner I think) both went off into some rather wacky notions, pushing the boundaries of the implications of their work. It seems to be not uncommon that scientists, like the rest of us are apt to get wedded to their ideas so much that they push them beyond what is really justified. It's part of the process: push the boundaries until you go too far and then you - or others - will pull you back a bit.
 

Clara Tea

Well-Known Member
Why are physicists interested in studying eastern religions?:):confused:Please move this post.If it is in the wrong place.:)

Let me discuss some physicists that I have known, and perhaps the answer will pop out.

Dr. Fred Reines (and partner Charles Cowan) won the Nobel Prize for building the first neutrino detector. Dr. Reines earned his way through college by singing with his deep booming and melodic voice. Thus, my friend and I sometimes sung Gilbert and Sullivan operas with him. He used to love to whistle Bach's Little Fugue in G Minor, and my friend did too, sometimes they whistled together. Sometimes Dr. Reines sat down in the hall of the physics building with me and helped me work crossword puzzles, and his abilities with words were astounding. While some puzzles would stump me (except for a few words), he never failed to quickly fill them in, even undoing some of my mistakes. Dr. Reines was in the Manhatten Project, Bikini Atoll A-bomb test, and in charge of the Enewetak A-bomb test. When I expressed the thought that maybe they wanted the radiation cloud to drift over the Bikini islanders to use them as lab rats, and marched soldiers into ground zero of the Nevada tests (that nuked southern Utah, resulting in cancer), and exposed sailors to radiation in the Operation Wigwam tests 500 miles southwest of San Diego, California, Dr. Reines said "oh, you think that do you." I had no idea, at the time, that he had been so involved. But, from his response, and knowing his character, I believe that his intentions were good.

Professor Julius Sumner Miller has a patent or copyright on most of the experiments used by high schools and colleges in the United States. He had a very inventive mind. Wikipedia has the wrong info, declaring that Prof. Miller had a PhD in Physics. Actually, he only has a Bachelors, and holds no doctorates. Prof. Miller had a very inventive mind because he constantly observed the world around him, and because he was very well read. Just as Socrates was a pest who constantly questioned everyone around him, Prof. Miller was the biggest pain in the eh....neck....that anyone ever heard of. One time when we were driving to Prof. Miller's favorite Chinese restaurant, he demanded that everyone "stick your hand out of the window and tell me what you observe." Some said pressure, some said temperature is cooler, etc. At the restaurant, Prof. Miller would always use the food and dishes as props for a physics experiment (example, cutting a string into sections, putting it on his ice, salting it, and lifting the ice once it froze to it...the salt caused the ice to melt, then fresh water refroze, trapping the string). Prof. Miller was also part of the group of physicists who took long walks with Dr. Albert Einstein, and discussed concepts of relativity with him. Prof. Miller constantly objected to illiterate physics students, and felt that they had to read the classics in order to think better. One day Prof. Miller cornered me and talked about Dr. Pangloss saying that we each have our own garden, then attributed that saying to Moliere. Voltaire's Candide, I replied. Prof. Miller said, oh, of course. In other words, Prof. Miller was testing me, to see if I was well read. Another time, Prof. Miller got upset with a PhD professor's ignorance of literature, and ordered me to feel his pulse....which I did using just one index finger in exactly the right spot. Prof. Miller was astounded that I knew not to measure his pulse with my thumb and that I would get his pulse with a precise press on his wrist. It was a test of my medical knowledge. To Prof. Miller, everything that he knew was in the Socratic method (that is, everything is philosophy, including science, medicine, literature, etc). Prof. Miller had talked other professors and physics students into doing death defying stunts....hammering nails into wood using just our bare hands. Often he would hammer our professor's head with tuning forks (raising bumps). Prof. Miller also used to try to fool us by using well known magic tricks (for example, he folded a dollar bill, flung it through the air, and chopped a pencil in half with it....actually, at the last minute, faster than the eye could observe it, he stuck his finger out, and it was the finger that broke the pencil). He challenged us to do the same. The idea was to get us to observe everything. Prof. Miller was also Professor Wonderful, a TV show produced by Disney. Later, he was the science TV host in Australia for many years. Though he got thousands of dollars per lecture, he spent that on air fare, food, and rent. Occasionally he vacationed in Las Vegas with our Physics professor.

I could go on with other physicists that I know, but I think that you are getting the idea that they are not one dimensional, nor focused solely on their own discipline. All of the physics students that I knew had advanced belts in various martial arts disciplines. Some liked to explore caves. Many were highly religious and Christians.

So, science is not the enemy of the Christian faith. Scientists are well versed, very curious, and they explore a variety of issues that they don't know about. They are among the smartest and most talented people on earth.

This is why some physicists study religions.

Physicists also have to grapple with the moral issues (perhaps religious issues) of making and using nukes.

I also met Dr. Edwin Teller, father of the Hydrogen bomb (or was it William Tell who shot an apple off of his son's head?)....regardless, I'm pretty sure that an H-bomb would knock off an apple.
 
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Clara Tea

Well-Known Member
As far as I know physicists in general aren't particularly interested in eastern religion but some of the big dogs from the early years of the quantum revolution were apparently partial to a bit of Hinduism.

Schrodinger in particular seems to have had some delightfully wacky ideas about the world (I personally love wacky ideas - some of the stuff Schrodnger wrote would get you laughed out of Deepak Chopra talk) but Heisenberg, Bohr and Oppenheimer appear to have expressed some interest in aspects of Hindu philosophy.

On the topic, I think there might be something to the idea that thinking about the universe deeply can lead a person to find some ideas expressed in religious philosophy kinda beautiful, even if it isn't something that is factually correct. The idea of the universe as a unified field and every event as updates on the state of a single universal system certainly don't sound a million miles from some of the things I've read from mystics of many tradition. Physical mysticism might well be a thing.

Some physicists wrestle with the consequence of building atomic bombs for the government. They insist that everyone pay attention to the final result of their work. Professor Riley Newman, for example.
 

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
How did he mistranslate it?

I thought I was clear. :shrug: Not only is it mistranslated by him using the wrong word, it is misinterpreted and used out of context of the surrounding verses and the chapter itself. The verse does not say “Now I am become Death the destroyer of worlds”. It is ”Time I am the destroyer of worlds”. Kālo’smi is literally “time I am” from kālaḥ (time) + asmi (I am). The verses describe Arjuna’s vision of Krishna in His divine form as God, showing His glories and attributes, time being one. It is not about death and destruction on the scale Oppenheimer was witnessing. The verse refers to the inexorable movement of time in destroying.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
I thought I was clear. :shrug: Not only is it mistranslated by him using the wrong word, it is misinterpreted and used out of context of the surrounding verses and the chapter itself. The verse does not say “Now I am become Death the destroyer of worlds”. It is ”Time I am the destroyer of worlds”. Kālo’smi is literally “time I am” from kālaḥ (time) + asmi (I am). The verses describe Arjuna’s vision of Krishna in His divine form as God, showing His glories and attributes, time being one. It is not about death and destruction on the scale Oppenheimer was witnessing. The verse refers to the inexorable movement of time in destroying.

Sorry I just asked. I didnt see ur previous posts.

U are right. kaala is time and kaalosmi means time is me or I am time.
 

Clara Tea

Well-Known Member
The article does not explore why but who:

What Erwin Schrödinger Said About the Upanishads - The Wire Science

Schrödinger was moved by the Upanishads. He discussed it with everyone he met and made determined efforts to incorporate it in his life. The epitaph on his tombstone reads, “… So all Being is an one and only Being; And that it continues to be when someone dies; [this] tells you, that he did not cease to be.”

And he wasn’t alone. Niels Bohr had famously said, “I go to the Upanishad to ask questions.” In The Tao of Physics (1975), Fritjof Capra wrote of the time Heisenberg met Rabindranath Tagore, and that the “introduction to Indian thought brought Heisenberg great comfort.”

J. Robert Oppenheimer, who led the Manhattan Project to develop the world’s first nuclear weapons, learned Sanskrit so he could read the Bhagavad Gita in its original form. When he witnessed the first atom bomb explode, he famously recalled a verse from the Gita, where Krishna shows Arjuna his true form. He translated the verse into English thus: “Now I am become death, the destroyer of worlds.”


You wrote: "The article does not explore why but who."

Once you read about who, you begin to understand why.

Many quantum physicists have struggled with the moral decisions that they made that led to the manufacture (and use) of nuclear weapons. War plays God with lives. God insists that "thou shalt not kill" and "turn the other cheek." Oddly, the Republicans are supported by the Religious Right, and, in turn, support war, torture camps, and the National Rifle Association (NRA).

The NRA publishes an "enemies list" which included president Clinton, the pope, et al.

Somehow Christians have warped their religion, and then blame the al Qaeda for warping their Muslim religion into terrorism. It is as though people are unable to see their own failings.
 

Clara Tea

Well-Known Member
Sorry I just asked. I didnt see ur previous posts.

U are right. kaala is time and kaalosmi means time is me or I am time.

The saying "time heals all wounds" seem to also have a flip side of eventually killing off everyone. Time is the essential element of change.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
The saying "time heals all wounds" seem to also have a flip side of eventually killing off everyone. Time is the essential element of change.

Absolutely false.

When someone says "I am time", and you are saying "end of time", that is "End of myself", and there is no end to God there yet instead he is claiming he is time itself. Hope you understand.
 

Clara Tea

Well-Known Member
Very interesting! It's not that new though, I read a book quite a few years ago concerning the overlap. Unhelpfully, I've no longer got the book and cannot remember either the name of the author or title of the book. I wish I did, I'd get it again. The cover was blue, if that helps. :rolleyes:
A bloody useless post then really.

Edit: I suspect the book concerned the Madhyamaka school.

Madhyamaka (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

Another interesting book on the philosophy of physics is "Dancing Woo Li Masters." In the book it says that it would discuss the wonder of a falling petal before discussing the law of gravity.

Maybe this is why the Woo Li Mammoth disappeared (I'm not sure why mastodons disappeared)?--Stomping around in a dance at a tar pit.
 

Yazata

Active Member
i would have thought that "Eastern religions" (that's an awfully broad category that needs some trimming down to specifics) would be of most interest to neuroscience, psychology and the philosophy of mind. (The links below have examples of why that might be.)

I'm not sure how relevant they are to physics.

Google Scholar

Google Scholar
 
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crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic ☿
Premium Member
I thought I was clear. :shrug: Not only is it mistranslated by him using the wrong word, it is misinterpreted and used out of context of the surrounding verses and the chapter itself. The verse does not say “Now I am become Death the destroyer of worlds”. It is ”Time I am the destroyer of worlds”. Kālo’smi is literally “time I am” from kālaḥ (time) + asmi (I am). The verses describe Arjuna’s vision of Krishna in His divine form as God, showing His glories and attributes, time being one. It is not about death and destruction on the scale Oppenheimer was witnessing. The verse refers to the inexorable movement of time in destroying.
If you care to speculate, I have a speculative proposition to critique:
Do you think that this mistranslation of Kālo’smi, along with the expanded definition of Loka (worlds or realms of consciousness) lead to the idea of the electromagnetic pulse from an atomic bomb as disrupting and dissolving the electromagnetic patterns of consciousness of living beings caught in an atomic blast, which then lead to the idea of an electromagnetic pulse from an atomic blast as being a destroyer of souls?
 

Clara Tea

Well-Known Member
Yes, I'm sure that's right. At the start of the QM revolution, the pioneers must have been struggling to find ways of thinking about what the new observations and theoretical constructions were telling them about the nature of the world. I am far from dismissive of the role philosophy can play in science: indeed think its role is essential.

But yes, Schrödinger (and Wigner I think) both went off into some rather wacky notions, pushing the boundaries of the implications of their work. It seems to be not uncommon that scientists, like the rest of us are apt to get wedded to their ideas so much that they push them beyond what is really justified. It's part of the process: push the boundaries until you go too far and then you - or others - will pull you back a bit.

All humans are flawed. But, at least the famous physicists have/had advanced degrees in their field of study, and have/had a better chance to understand it than we do.

I don't think that we can take anyone's ideas for gospel truth at the moment. It takes decades to understand what is really going on.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
All humans are flawed. But, at least the famous physicists have/had advanced degrees in their field of study, and have/had a better chance to understand it than we do.

I don't think that we can take anyone's ideas for gospel truth at the moment. It takes decades to understand what is really going on.
Well, science doesn't claim gospel truth in the first place. It deals in models of reality that account for observations. Generally it's pretty careful not to claim absolute truth, since we are always finding out new things about nature, some of which require our models to be changed.

QM is something of a classic. It works but there are loose ends, suggestive of an incompleteness, somewhere.
 

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
If you care to speculate, I have a speculative proposition to critique:
Do you think that this mistranslation of Kālo’smi, along with the expanded definition of Loka (worlds or realms of consciousness) lead to the idea of the electromagnetic pulse from an atomic bomb as disrupting and dissolving the electromagnetic patterns of consciousness of living beings caught in an atomic blast, which then lead to the idea of an electromagnetic pulse from an atomic blast as being a destroyer of souls?

No, that’s overthinking. The simple answer is that Arjuna was distressed over kiling his kin. This was a “here and now” discussion on a battle field about a warrior losing his nerve. Krishna tells Arjuna he would be a shameless coward. His kin are already dead, their bodies are dead but their souls live forever. Arjuna may kill the body in doing his duty as Kshatriya, a warrior, but he cannot kill the soul. This doesn’t give permission for vigilantism as people think but rather it reassures a soldier it is his duty to fight and possibly kill.

Hinduism believes in many worlds and planets, universes and planes of existence that are very real, not metaphysical. All of them are subject to the ravages of time. Chapter 2 details how the soul is immortal, cannot be harmed or killed. Only the body dies. Krishna can’t be considered an agent of death or destruction the way Oppenheimer suggests. Krishna did not stop the war by divine intervention because it was necessary for the karmas and dharmas of the participants to play out. He was cursed by Gandhari for that reason but she did not understand. In simple terms, Oppenheimer misappropriated the verse. The Gita has to be taken in its entirety, in context. Few verses can be taken at face value.
 

RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
No, that’s overthinking. The simple answer is that Arjuna was distressed over kiling his kin. This was a “here and now” discussion on a battle field about a warrior losing his nerve. Krishna tells Arjuna he would be a shameless coward. His kin are already dead, their bodies are dead but their souls live forever. Arjuna may kill the body in doing his duty as Kshatriya, a warrior, but he cannot kill the soul. This doesn’t give permission for vigilantism as people think but rather it reassures a soldier it is his duty to fight and possibly kill.

Hinduism believes in many worlds and planets, universes and planes of existence that are very real, not metaphysical. All of them are subject to the ravages of time. Chapter 2 details how the soul is immortal, cannot be harmed or killed. Only the body dies. Krishna can’t be considered an agent of death or destruction the way Oppenheimer suggests. Krishna did not stop the war by divine intervention because it was necessary for the karmas and dharmas of the participants to play out. He was cursed by Gandhari for that reason but she did not understand. In simple terms, Oppenheimer misappropriated the verse. The Gita has to be taken in its entirety, in context. Few verses can be taken at face value.


Yeah, but I think the point about Oppenheimer is, that he was familiar enough with the text to be able to quote it.
 
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