1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured Why Agree with God?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Naama, Mar 23, 2018.

  1. Etritonakin

    Etritonakin Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 16, 2010
    Messages:
    2,927
    Ratings:
    +282
    Explicitly say what? It explicitly says what I said it did in the same post -though not verbatim. It does say exactly the same thing in different words.
    If I understand correctly, Judaism references Isaiah, Job, the other books of the Old Testament, etc. -not just the first five books.
    Still, I am not talking about Judaism or what some Jews believe -but what is stated in scripture.
    I do not think the verses I quoted in English would be seen as mistranslations by any Jews -though they may not believe the same things about them.

    Furthermore, scripture which is referenced by Jews speaks in many places about scripture not being readily understood by some -being misunderstood without exhaustive study -not being understood until the latter days/end times, and even then not by some in the end times before Messiah appears.

    Will add by edit later
     
  2. Naama

    Naama Chibi Lilith

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2018
    Messages:
    148
    Ratings:
    +54
    Religion:
    None
    If we can come to such wildly different ideas from reading the same text....doesn't that mean.... it might be a little flawed as instructions?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  3. robocop (actually)

    robocop (actually) Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2013
    Messages:
    2,693
    Ratings:
    +475
    Religion:
    newly baptized into Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
    Or rather "He" allows us to find a way to save them on our own.

    I don't know... I'm an atheist so maybe I shouldn't be talking like this... I believe God is a group of Aliens who had to leave us to our own devices somewhat.
     
  4. Etritonakin

    Etritonakin Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 16, 2010
    Messages:
    2,927
    Ratings:
    +282
    God's meaning is not flawed -it is written to us in our imperfect human languages and read by our imperfect human minds -not to mention that scripture states God actively hides and reveals things as he wills.

    Scripture actually states that God will give us a pure language (one made by the one with a complete perspective and understanding -not ours which are based in our ignorance and which allow for many misunderstandings) that all may serve him with one consent.

    God actually employs selective ignorance and misunderstanding for the time being..... Until we are prepared to receive things and understand.... Such as when God confused language at Babel "lest anything they imagine be possible to them". If he had not, we would likely have destroyed ourselves long ago.

    Here are just a few scriptures on the subject....

    Isaiah 28:9Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
    10For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
    11For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
    12To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
    13But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

    Isaiah 29:10 the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.
    11And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed: 12And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.
    13Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:
    14Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.

    Daniel 12:5Then I Daniel looked, and, behold, there stood other two, the one on this side of the bank of the river, and the other on that side of the bank of the river. 6And onesaid to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders? 7And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished. 8And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? 9And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. 10Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand. 11And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. 12Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. 13But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days

    Zeph 3:
    have cut off the nations: their towers are desolate; I made their streets waste, that none passeth by: their cities are destroyed, so that there is no man, that there is none inhabitant.

    7I said, Surely thou wilt fear me, thou wilt receive instruction; so their dwelling should not be cut off, howsoever I punished them: but they rose early, andcorrupted all their doings.

    8Therefore wait ye upon me, saith the LORD, until the day that I rise up to the prey: for my determination is to gather the nations, that I may assemble the kingdoms, to pour upon them mine indignation, even all my fierce anger: for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of my jealousy.

    9For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the LORD, to serve him with one consent.
     
  5. Naama

    Naama Chibi Lilith

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2018
    Messages:
    148
    Ratings:
    +54
    Religion:
    None
    ....Um thats.....interesting...

    But in the Torah at least, God has directly and intentionally murdered children.....
     
    • Like Like x 1
  6. Naama

    Naama Chibi Lilith

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2018
    Messages:
    148
    Ratings:
    +54
    Religion:
    None
    .......So God doesn't want us to know His will?

    Surely if He wants us to then we would know it.....
     
  7. idea

    idea Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2008
    Messages:
    5,856
    Ratings:
    +489
    Religion:
    seeker
    If some all-loving and merciful being does exist, it certainly does not appear to be all-powerful... Obviously if an all-powerful and all-loving being existed, hell on earth would not exist, we would all be educated in a loving manner, and would progress with mercy and caring guidance... as is... I know something exists, but what it is??

    On earth as it is in heaven? I have a sinking filling it is more akin to "in heaven as it is on Earth" - that spirits exist, but there are many heavenly nations, many different kingdoms and groups, with no overal leader to any of it - as messy in the spirit world as it is here... that is just the impression I get.
     
    • Creative Creative x 1
  8. Etritonakin

    Etritonakin Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 16, 2010
    Messages:
    2,927
    Ratings:
    +282
    Exactly -you will know it when he wants you to know it.

    His will is not a mystery as it pertains to general conduct -as the things of God are apparent in what was made -and general right and wrong is obvious.

    His overall plan (and other things), however, is not made readily apparent to all at all times. Being careful about which information goes to which people -or does not -at any time is important in any endeavor.

    About God killing children (read in another post).... God is actually personally responsible for all of our deaths -simply by making us human, but he will also resurrect each and every one of us.

    He has also done so directly... Sodom and Gomorrah, the flood, giving nations over to the sword, plagues, famine, etc., etc......

    But will also resurrect all -and the former things will no longer be remembered -but they will have made possible a future without war, etc...

    Isaiah 65:16"Because he who is blessed in the earth Will be blessed by the God of truth; And he who swears in the earth Will swear by the God of truth; Because the former troubles are forgotten, And because they are hidden from My sight! 17"For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former things will not be remembered or come to mind. 18"But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create; For behold, I create Jerusalem for rejoicing And her people for gladness.…
     
    #128 Etritonakin, Mar 25, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2018
  9. Naama

    Naama Chibi Lilith

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2018
    Messages:
    148
    Ratings:
    +54
    Religion:
    None
    I wouldn't worship any God that acts like that.
     
  10. David T

    David T Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2011
    Messages:
    7,533
    Ratings:
    +2,810
    My daughter. What don't I understand?
    She totally informs me I see the world through her eyes. That is not easy for normal folks. Zero defects and she sees the world as It is she doesn't." intellectualize it into abstractive dysfunctional nonsense, that what us "smart"folks do.

    Her value is in who she is not in what she does. You understand that as a special needs specialist. She is my little buddha.
    20170805_142250.jpg
    Chilling at music festival. She is very passionate about music and she can't speak. Forced her dad to get a guitar and get into music!!! Cute isn't she!! Now I am bragging lucky me!
    20170805_165619.jpg
     
    • Winner Winner x 2
    • Like Like x 1
  11. Etritonakin

    Etritonakin Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 16, 2010
    Messages:
    2,927
    Ratings:
    +282
    That is your choice -or where you are at this point, but that is actually part of why he does it.
    Though he "does nothing except he first declares it", that does not mean he means his declaration to be understood by all beforehand. Much of it is to be understood at the time or after the fact -and will be proof that he did declare it beforehand -though later, for the most part.

    When you LATER realize what he actually did, why he did it, why he did not allow all to understand beforehand... You WILL worship him for acting like that during this time -because what he will have accomplished by it all will be more awesome than you can imagine. All will be very plain to all LATER -though some understand certain things beforehand or at the time.

    He is strategic with knowledge and ignorance of his plan and even of himself -for our own eventual benefit -and it is understandable that some will not worship a God as they understand him -because they do not yet understand him.

    Scripture says that none can come to God except he first calls them to do so -and those who do worship him in truth do understand somewhat what he is doing -why he is doing it -why we must endure this chaos in order to eradicate it completely -and know that the future which is made possible by this experience will be far more than worth it -not to mention this present time will eventually no longer be remembered, just as many of the experiences which made us what we are today -even those which were very unpleasant but made us more awesome and strong -we do not call to mind or remember.
     
  12. Naama

    Naama Chibi Lilith

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2018
    Messages:
    148
    Ratings:
    +54
    Religion:
    None
    ........No. I don’t believe that the ends justify the means and if he where to make me believe that then I wouldn’t be me anymore. You don’t know people as well as you’ve think if you believe we can all be cowed that way.
     
  13. robocop (actually)

    robocop (actually) Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2013
    Messages:
    2,693
    Ratings:
    +475
    Religion:
    newly baptized into Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
    Will you please quote me the verse?
    Are you talking about Elijah and the bears?
    If you're talking about Elijah and the bears, I'd say God was desperate to inforce his role/rule... God took out almost all the earth in Noah, but you remembered a case of a few children. By the way, in Raelism God is a group of Aliens, some of which have never thought the human race was any good but to be destroyed or ruled over, a.k.a. Satan. At times, Satan has been in charge.

    Not trying to convert anyone ever... just answering the question.
     
  14. Naama

    Naama Chibi Lilith

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2018
    Messages:
    148
    Ratings:
    +54
    Religion:
    None
    Um its a lot of things.....remember the plagues on Egypt where God killed all of the firstborn?
     
  15. robocop (actually)

    robocop (actually) Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2013
    Messages:
    2,693
    Ratings:
    +475
    Religion:
    newly baptized into Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
    Well, in Raelism the Jews were more intelligent than anyone else, and to help the world seem worthwhile to Satan (I think) and other reasons it was necessary to give them their own land to have the dignity they deserved for being so smart.
     
  16. Naama

    Naama Chibi Lilith

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2018
    Messages:
    148
    Ratings:
    +54
    Religion:
    None
    .....0.0....yeah I think I'm done with this conversation.....coming from someone who is ethnically Jewish we aren't any more smart than any other race......
     
    • Like Like x 1
  17. MonkeyFire

    MonkeyFire Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2014
    Messages:
    1,164
    Ratings:
    +167
    Religion:
    Faithful Jesus believer
    Anger can go to hell and the sun won't set on him.
     
  18. robocop (actually)

    robocop (actually) Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2013
    Messages:
    2,693
    Ratings:
    +475
    Religion:
    newly baptized into Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
    I disagree, but if you are done too bad, I was about to show you an essay I made on the subject.
     
  19. robocop (actually)

    robocop (actually) Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2013
    Messages:
    2,693
    Ratings:
    +475
    Religion:
    newly baptized into Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
    Here is the essay anyway:

    The violence in the world is really just us. We are to blame. Wisdom must catch up to technology, or we can’t make it, not with more E.T. help that they would be willing to grant if they are good, and not with less E.T. intervention if they are bad.

    As per slaves in ancient times, Genesis 1:24 describes cattle, creeping things, and beasts. These beasts were somewhere along the ape-human line. I haven’t finished the Third Chimpanzee by Jared Diamond, but my hope is that these slaves weren’t along the consciousness or intelligence lines enough to suffer too much.

    When we were created our planet had less gravity so we could be taller. That’s why say, on the Sistine Chapel, the angel/cherubims look like kids (they are smaller than us but not kids). So we had more brain capacity and in Genesis 1:26 they made us smarter than themselves. Image could mean greater. The creators loved this, but those on their home planet worried.

    Then there was the fruit of knowledge of good and evil, or science in the French Bible (Genesis 2:17). We became too powerful so they tried to wipe us out with the flood. Yes, I know Jeremiah Sitchin says that happened naturally and the ark was a submarine. After wiping us out and learning of Noah, they those on the home planet decided they just wanted to control us, because man wants to be scientific (Genesis 8:21). Later they would start an experiment where they would have prophets hint at things to carry proof of themselves later on and help us safely but slowly progress. It’s like an insect; at each level of technology you grow it in before you can progress, and that is the only way you can survive.

    After the flood, there was almost no violence perpetrated by E.T.s. They just wanted to gradually let us grow until we loved them and ourselves. Yes, at the beginning of Exodus, they freed the Hebrews from Pharaoh. They had to. The Hebrews were to live together since they were the smartest and therefore the most valuable to keep around. At the Tower of Babel (Genesis 11:9) Jews were too aggressive and at Sodom and Gomorrah got nuked (Genesis 19:24,26,28) but everyone in the cities were warned to flee and flee quickly (Genesis 19:12,13,17). In Jericho the Israelites didn’t know what they were doing, I think. In subsequent wars, the defenders could flee. For instance, when it rained down stuff from the sky in Joshua 10, the defenders could look up and avoid it, I think, or that’s my interpretation of what to glean from it. In the last war, I think they could have simply ran away. This war is also in Joshua 10. The Jews had to be protected. There was also colonization, or getting sacrifices of some things, but it was in return for protection. But eventually, Yahweh laid off of humanity.

    The beast in Revelations 13:8 is nuclear power for murderous purposes. It is the number of man, 666 generations from the first man, when man finally had his life in his own hands. Revelations 16:8,20 and 21 confirm this. In the Book of Revelations all the problems are caused by our own humanity!

    Diseases, I guess, were either not in the creators’ control, or they helped us gain technology and love in order to fight them.

    Buddhism suggests that as a society, we climb but sometimes fall down and we need to climb again or stay up there.

    The violence in the world, then, is really just us. We are to blame. Wisdom must catch up to technology, or we can’t make it, not with more E.T. help that they would be willing to grant, and not with less E.T. intervention. Religions also can reveal technology in their text texture.
     
  20. robocop (actually)

    robocop (actually) Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2013
    Messages:
    2,693
    Ratings:
    +475
    Religion:
    newly baptized into Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
    Sorry to turn you off to conversation... I think there are more geniuses out of Jews than other races. I think the fact that you are questioning obeying God shows your intelligence just like the Jews in the Bible questioned Moses and you and PopeADope.
     
Loading...