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Why Abraham?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Epic Beard Man, Sep 29, 2019.

  1. Theo102

    Theo102 Active Member

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    You're avoiding the point that Revelation conflicts with Pauline doctrine. You can't combine two conflicting ideas and expect your argument to make sense.
     
  2. Good-Ole-Rebel

    Good-Ole-Rebel Well-Known Member

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    No, I explained the verses you gave in (Revelation) by Paul's writings. You don't like it. That doesn't make Paul in conflict with (Revelation). That makes you in conflict with Paul.

    So, again, what does your Bible look like. Apparently it doesn't have Paul's letters in it. What else have you taken out.

    If you negate Paul's letters, you must negate the book of (Acts). Correct? Your bible is getting smaller and smaller in both size and authority.

    Good-Ole-Rebel
     
  3. Theo102

    Theo102 Active Member

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    Don't be ridiculous. Paul admitted the rejection by Asia, and there's circumstantial evidence relating to the false apostles and the Ephesians that implicates him. Revelation refers to 12 apostles of the lamb, and Matthias replaced Judas, not Paul.

    Paul's letters are an important part of the puzzle, I'm not saying that they should by ignored just because his doctrine doesn't add up or because he had a problem with the Jews from Asia which eventually led to his demise in Rome.
     
  4. Good-Ole-Rebel

    Good-Ole-Rebel Well-Known Member

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    There is nothing to indicate Paul was a false apostle. If so, present it.

    I never said Paul was one of the twelve apostles and neither does Scripture.

    You cant call Paul a false apostle and then say his letters are important. Foolish.

    What does your bible look like. What books does it include?

    Good-Ole-Rebel
     
  5. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    The "synagogue of satan" accusation has been used against Ashkenaz, Zionists, Bolsheviks etc.

    I think you should look closer to home at the enmity between Israel and Judea.

    Edomites had been forcibly converted in Judea. Israel was considered Hellenized half breeds.
     
  6. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    Paul died before the Temple was destroyed or Revelation was written to the seven assemblies.
     
  7. Theo102

    Theo102 Active Member

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    To the congregation of Ephesus in Asia:

    I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
    Rev 2:2

    And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
    Acts 19:1

    And he went into the synagogue, and spake boldly for the space of three months, disputing and persuading the things concerning the kingdom of God.
    But when divers were hardened, and believed not, but spake evil of that way before the multitude, he departed from them, and separated the disciples, disputing daily in the school of one Tyrannus.
    Acts 19:8-9

    This thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia be turned away from me; of whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes.
    2 Timothy 1:15
     
  8. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    This is helpful.
    Phygelus; Phygellus Definition and Meaning - Bible Dictionary
     
  9. Good-Ole-Rebel

    Good-Ole-Rebel Well-Known Member

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    (Rev. 2:2) does not indicate Paul is not an apostle. Paul was received well by the Ephisians. See (Acts 20:17-38) So, where do you get the idea Paul was a false apostle?

    (Acts 19:1-9) adds nothing to your accusation.

    As to Phygellus and Hemogenes, they are not Paul. Again, where do you get the idea that Paul is a false apostle?

    You are afraid to show the Scripture you believe to be authoritative? What does your bible consist of? Is it the koran? It may as well be.

    Good-Ole-Rebel
     
  10. pcarl

    pcarl Well-Known Member

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    You may read anything into it, but Scripture clearly states the covenant was with Abraham and his descendants.
     
  11. pcarl

    pcarl Well-Known Member

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    Abrahamic. The Church also believes that the covenant with Noah remains in effect.

    True, the Mosaic Covenant was conditional. 'Salvation' is through Christ even for those saved who do not acknowledge Christ.
     
    #71 pcarl, Feb 15, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2020
  12. Theo102

    Theo102 Active Member

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    Like I said, the evidence is circumstantial. Your refusal to address the facts shows your prejudice.
    Summoning those who did not reject him isn't the same as going there are being received well by the people in general.

    From the evidence that you have refused to address and much more.

    Except that it matches the event described in Revelation 2:2 which speaks of false apostles.

    So what?

    There's also the issue of Paul's deception. Rev 2:2 says that the false apostles were liars.

    For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?
    Romans 3:7

    But be it so, I did not burden you: nevertheless, being crafty, I caught you with guile.
    2 Corinthians 12:16

    What I believe isn't relevant.

    What are you fishing for?

    The Quran has nothing about Paul and his doctrine.

    O you who have believed, fear Allah and be with those who are true.
    Surah 9:119
     
  13. Theo102

    Theo102 Active Member

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    I was talking about the covenant of circumcision. The covenant of Genesis 15 is different, there are different beneficiaries and a larger area of land which includes the land of Canaan (Palestine).
     
  14. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    There was NO Ur of the Chaldeans in the time of Abraham.
     
  15. Theo102

    Theo102 Active Member

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    What's your source for that?
     
  16. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    Abraham was from the city of Ur according to Genesis 11:31 above. The problem is that there are several places called Ur. It is mostly translated as "Ur of the Chaldeans."

    The problem with "Chaldeans" is that it is a late word used in the Neo-Babylonian times. It is either anachronistic, or a poor translation.

    Josephus and Rabbi Maimonides believed that Ur Kasdim was in Northern Mesopotamia, in what is today Syria or Turkey.

    There is no debate over where Haran is located, 10 miles north of the Syrian border in Turkey along the Balikh River, a tributary of the Euphrates River. Haran is an important Hurrian center, mentioned in the Nuzi tablets. The moon god, Sin was worshiped here.

    There are two cities not far from Haran; Ura and Urfa. Local tradition says that Abraham was born in Urfa.

    Northern Ur is mentioned in tablets at Ugarit, Nuzi, and Ebla, which refers to Ur, URA, and Urau (See BAR January 2000, page 16).

    The names of several of Abraham's relatives like Peleg, Serug, Nahor and Terah, appear as names of cities in the region of Haran (Harper's Bible Dictionary, page 373). Abraham sent his servant back to the region of Haran to find a wife for Isaac (Genesis 24:10).

    Abraham's Ur
     
  17. Theo102

    Theo102 Active Member

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    Maybe Ur of the Chaldeans is a codename like Nimrod?

    אור כשדים = awr kashediym "Ur of the Chaldeans"
    שדים = shediym "devils"

    They sacrificed unto devils [שדים] ...
    Deuteronomy 32:17

    נמרד = Nimrod
    מרדכ = Marduk

    Marduk | Babylonian god
     
  18. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    Much too early for Abraham.

    meanwhile,

    Have we erred on Ur?

    This is likely the same city, in southern Turkey, that is now called Urfa. It turns out that local Jewish, Islamic, and Christian traditions have considered Urfa to be the birthplace of Abraham for more than a thousand years. The biblical names of Abraham’s grandfather Nahor and great-grandfather Serug are also the names of towns located near Urfa.The official Turkish name of the city is Saliurfa: in the Byzantine period it was known as Edessa, a popular focus of Syriac Christianity.

    There's also a great ziggurat there.
     
  19. Good-Ole-Rebel

    Good-Ole-Rebel Well-Known Member

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    Like I said, the evidence is made up by you. There is no evidence.

    I presented 'real evidence' that the Ephesians accepted Paul. You presented nothing.

    I don't refuse your 'evidence' as you have none. I refuse your statements.

    Again, (Acts 19-1-9) adds nothing to your lie, other than making it worse. (Acts 19:1-9) and (Rev. 2:2) have nothing in common. In (Acts 19) it is believers. In (Rev. 2:2) it is unbelievers.

    So what?....you ask. You're the one that presented Phygellus and Hemogenes as some proof of Paul not being an apostle. So you tell me...what. Phygellus and Hemogenes are not Paul.

    Concerning (Rom. 3:7) Paul is not saying he is a liar concerning the Gospel he preaches. He is explaining the question that he knows the Jews are asking. (3:3-4) For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? God forbid: yea, let God be true, but everyman a liar...." Paul then anticipates another question since everyman is a liar. (Rom. 3:5) "But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance?" Paul is placing himself with the 'everyman' and 'our' concerning everyman being a liar. He also anticiipates another question from the Jews. (Rom. 3:7) "For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?" In other words, (Rom. 3:7) does not prove anything about Paul being a false prophet. It speaks well of you however seeking to manipulate Scripture and make it say what it is not saying. It is you who take the role of 'false teacher'. Not Paul.

    So, you see, a little context goes a long way to help your understanding. But that is if you are seeking understanding. Which you arn't.

    Concerning (2 Cor. 12:16) there isn't anything there to indicate Paul is a false teacher. Paul used his own craft of tentmaking so as not to be a burden to the believers. He did that so as to remove any problem some may have with the Gospel of Jesus Christ. That is not being a false apostle. That is using whatever means you can to further the Gospel of Christ.

    What you believe is relevant as you are the one making false accusations. I pretty much know what you are which is why I asked. And, I understand why you wouldn't want anyone to know. Neither would I.

    Neither the koran or allah mean anything to me. Now there is a religion with a false prophet, Muhammad.

    Good-Ole-Rebel
     
  20. Theo102

    Theo102 Active Member

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    And Abram knew the Lord, and he went in his ways and instructions, and the Lord his God was with him.
    And Terah his father was in those days, still captain of the host of king Nimrod, and he still followed strange gods.

    Book of Jasher, Chapter 11
     
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