Why Abraham?

[Cooky]

Early Islam adopted knowledge from everywhere, where it advanced known medicine, created universities, algebra, 0 etc...

It is once it became Tribalism, that it lost connection to studying all knowledge available, and then fought to maintain that exclusivity.

In my opinion.

I would argue that that knowledge represents the remains of the Persian Empires greatness. And the transition to Islam, represents the slow death of that greatness.

It must have been worse, IMO, than the sacking of Rome. But I want to learn as much as possible on the topic. If anyone can point me in the right direction for learning more about this, it would be greatly appreciated -but not from Islamic apologist sources... We all know how the victors reinterpret history.

I would like to hear history from the Persian perspective, if such historical records were allowed to exist on.

 

[Link]

There is five Prophets mentioned together with the issue of controversy:

Noah
Abraham
Moses
Jesus
Mohamad


The purpose of Noah, is to show one there was like of Moses and Abraham in the past.
The purpose of mentioning Abraham in the way he was, was to say, his religion was for all humans, and it was not about his offspring being superior or selected. The Prophets were chosen from his offspring, but so was he chosen from Noah's offspring. The closest to Abraham hence are the righteous - those who believe....and the more faith you have, the closer you are to him.

Moses purpose because he founded the religion that was the last before Mohammad. And he was not chosen to make the children of Isaac or Jacob more special than all people but rather he was preparing people for the one in his own words "The one you will send"

And Jesus because people didn't see him as one of the successors of Moses and just one of the chosen household of Aaron, and that people made him ultra special, and made him a divinity or equal to God or God himself (depending on interpretation) or aspect of God (whatever they all don't make sense), and missed the boat of recognizing him as the last of the 12 Captains who were meant to be the way God guides humans, one way from one perspective and split into twelve.

Mohammad because he is but a Messenger, and if he died or killed, Ali would replace him for revelation of Quran, but he didn't die, and so was the Seal of Prophets, but his family must be held on to till the last of them, the Mahdi.

All the Prophets have a purpose to being mentioned, but when these five mentioned together, pay attention, and it's about dealing with divisions of people in understanding the religion and not seeing it's constant renewal.

This doesn't make these five Prophets more important like some believe, as every Prophet is as equally important but Mohammad is of course the universal Prophet and his revelation for all, but without past Prophets the truth would become unrecoverable.

 

[Harel13]

I spoke at a funeral yesterday and I mentioned that I worshipped the God of Abraham. I was wrong. I worship the God of Satanist, the God of Hindus, the God of Sikhs, the God of atheists. But I’m curious what made Abraham so important? Of course, in your opinion.

Abraham was a light in the pagan world of his time, having "discovered" monotheism, according to the midrash.

 

[Rival]

Abraham was a light in the pagan world of his time, having "discovered" monotheism, according to the midrash.

Just so you know, Epic Beard Man is no longer on this forum; at least not for a long while.

 

[Harel13]

Just so you know, Epic Beard Man is no longer on this forum; at least not for a long while.

Good to know.

 

[arthra]

Abraham represents as far as I can tell probably the earliest references to a Covenant between God and His people and the lineal descent from His children Ishmael and Isaac to the Prophets descended from Him.

the Baha’i Writings suggest that there has been a series of Covenants from Abraham to Baha’u’llah according to ‘Abdu’l-Baha:

“His Holiness Abraham, on Him be peace, made a covenant concerning His Holiness Moses and gave the glad-tidings of His coming. His Holiness Moses made a covenant concerning the Promised One, i.e. His Holiness Christ, and announced the good news of His Manifestation to the world. His Holiness Christ made a covenant concerning the Paraclete and gave the tidings of His coming. His Holiness the Prophet Muhammad made a covenant concerning His Holiness the Báb and the Báb was the One promised by Muhammad, for Muhammad gave the tidings of His coming. The Báb made a Covenant concerning the Blessed Beauty of Bahá'u'lláh and gave the glad-tidings of His coming for the Blessed Beauty was the One promised by His Holiness the Báb. Bahá'u'lláh made a covenant concerning a promised One who will become manifest after one thousand or thousands of years.”

http://bahai-library.com/pdf/r/remey_covenant_1919.pdf

A second reason is that Baha’u’llah was a descendent of Abraham through Katurah the third wife of Abraham:

"Regarding your question concerning the descent of Bahá'u'lláh from Abraham: The Master has stated that Bahá'u'lláh is a descendant of Abraham through a son of his, other than Isaac and Ishmael, from his wife Katurah..."

(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer March 24, 1943)

“He derived His descent, on the one hand, from Abraham (the Father of the Faithful) through his wife Katurah, and on the other from Zoroaster, as well as from Yazdigird, the last king of the Sasaniyan dynasty.”

~ Shoghi Effendi, God Passes By, p. 94

Also see:

Baha'-Allah - I : Mirza `Abbas Nuri, Mirza Buzurg (d. 1255/1839), Parents and Genealology.

 

[Ebionite]

If people were smarter, they would call them the Mosaic religions. We worship the God of Moses. Screw Abraham.

I think you're confusing Moses with the scribes and Pharisees.

Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
Matthew 23:2

But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.
Acts 23:6

Abraham kept the same laws that Moses taught:

Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
Genesis 26:5

 

[Ebionite]

When the Church refers to the Jewish covenant with God as irrevocable and eternal it is to the covenant with Abraham.

Behold, the days come, saith YHWH, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith YHWH:
But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith YHWH, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their Elohim, and they shall be my people.
Jeremiah 31:31-33

How do ye say, We are wise, and the law of YHWH is with us? Lo, certainly in vain made he it; the pen of the scribes is in vain.
Jeremiah 8:8

 

[sooda]

I do not know what Protestant Christians believe concerning Abraham, but, as for Catholic Christians;


This story begins with the faith of Abraham, the father of those who believe, and also the father of our faith as Christians, one who, through faith, is also our father. The story continues with the blessings granted to the patriarchs, the revelation to Moses and Israel quotes exodus toward the Promised Land. A new stage opens up with the promise of an unending kingship the promise made to David and his descendants.

The prophets in turn interpret this history, calling people to repentance and conversion, thus preparing the human hearts to receive the ultimate gift.

Abraham, father of the people of Israel, father of faith, thus becomes the source of blessing, for in him "all the families of the earth shall call themselves blessed " (Genesis 12:3). The task of the Chosen People is, therefore, to make a gift of their God-- the one true God-- to every other people; in reality, as Christians we are the inheritors of their faith in the one God. Our gratitude, therefore, must be extended to our Jewish brothers and sisters who, despite the hardships of their own history, have held on to faith in this God right up to the present, and who witness to it in the sight of those peoples who, lacking knowledge of the one God, "dwell in darkness and in the shadow of death" (Luke 1:79).

When the Church refers to the Jewish covenant with God as irrevocable and eternal it is to the covenant with Abraham.

Abraham had 318 trained men. Over and above the levy of his herdsmen who would fight when necessary, he had 318 men whom the Scripture describes as “trained”. Trained implies they were more than herdsmen. Trained suggests they were purely warriors.

 

[pearl]

Abraham had 318 trained men. Over and above the levy of his herdsmen who would fight when necessary, he had 318 men whom the Scripture describes as “trained”. Trained implies they were more than herdsmen. Trained suggests they were purely warriors.

Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith YHWH:

What does either post have to do with the fact that God 'cut a deal' with Abraham? And the 'Angel of the Lord' the only one to seal, to promise, and bound by His word making it absolute,
irrevocable, eternal.To believe otherwise makes God a liar.

 

[sooda]

What does either post have to do with the fact that God 'cut a deal' with Abraham? And the 'Angel of the Lord' the only one to seal, to promise, and bound by His word making it absolute,
irrevocable, eternal.To believe otherwise makes God a liar.

Abraham was a Bedouin with lots of concubines.. Bedu make the best fighters so he fought and conquered 4 armies (or kings)

He had no camels and its unlikely he had horses.

Context helps.

War of the Four Kings vs. the Five Kings - The Israel Bible
War of the Four Kings vs. the Five Kings - The Israel Biblefour-kings-vs...
"When Abram hears the fate of his nephew, he springs into action. With just 318 men, Abram defeats the four kings and frees the prisoners. The newly-rescued king of Sodom offers Abram a reward, but Abram refuses to give the king the chance to say he made Abram rich. Instead, he asks only that his allies be recompensed for their efforts." *

 

[Harel13]

Abraham was a Bedouin with lots of concubines

Abraham had, at most, three wives (Sarah, Hagar and Keturah). That's not "lots".

 

[Rival]

Abraham had, at most, three wives (Sarah, Hagar and Keturah). That's not "lots".

Isn't one opinion that Hagar and Keturah are the same?

 

[Harel13]

Isn't one opinion that Hagar and Keturah are the same?

Yeah, which is why I wrote "at most". However, I'm sure @sooda won't accept that opinion.

 

[Ebionite]

What does either post have to do with the fact that God 'cut a deal' with Abraham?

It wasn't "God". A covenant is a kind of contract.

 

[sooda]

Abraham had, at most, three wives (Sarah, Hagar and Keturah). That's not "lots".

He was a Bedouin.. a tribal chieftain ..

Genesis 25:6

King James Bible
But unto the sons of the concubines, which Abraham had, Abraham gave gifts, and sent them away from Isaac his son, while he yet lived, eastward, unto the east country.

 

[sooda]

Yeah, which is why I wrote "at most". However, I'm sure @sooda won't accept that opinion.

Yes.. I know about his wives Hagar and Keturah.

 

[Harel13]

He was a Bedouin.. a tribal chieftain ..

Genesis 25:6

King James Bible
But unto the sons of the concubines, which Abraham had, Abraham gave gifts, and sent them away from Isaac his son, while he yet lived, eastward, unto the east country.

Nothing about this verse states that he had "many". Nor does the Bible ever really refer to him as some sort of Bedouin chieftain...
Edit: you know what? I can understand how one could infer your opinion. I just don't really agree with that perspective.

 

[Harel13]

Yes.. I know about his wives Hagar and Keturah.

I'm sure you don't. I merely stated that you probably don't agree with the commentary opinion that they were one and the same.

 

[pearl]

It wasn't "God". A covenant is a kind of contract.

Exactly. And the parties who enter the 'contract' walk between the split carcasses. Scripture has it that only 'the Angel of the Lord', representing God, walked through.
Gen 15, : 9-20.