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why a Trinity

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Reality is not a collection of labels. Nor do the labels help us understand reality when we use them like walls.
Labels do help to differentiate concepts. Saying that the 'trinity', doesn't mean trinity, is more like confusing, and making words meaningless.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Labels do help to differentiate concepts. Saying that the 'trinity', doesn't mean trinity, is more like confusing, and making words meaningless.
Perhaps PureX means that the doctrine of the Trinity is incoherent, which is why the RCC and the Piscos (and no doubt more) call it a 'mystery'.

The doctrine says there's only one god, composed of three distinct persons, Father Son and Ghost, each of whom is that god.

You see the problem? How can three distinct persons each be 100% of god? Either he's a corporation with a board of three members, but no, the three don't meet and vote, each of them IS god; or there are three gods; but no, they're distinct persons making only one god.

A total nonsense. But that can happen in religion, as in life.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Perhaps PureX means that the doctrine of the Trinity is incoherent, which is why the RCC and the Piscos (and no doubt more) call it a 'mystery'.

The doctrine says there's only one god, composed of three distinct persons, Father Son and Ghost, each of whom is that god.

You see the problem? How can three distinct persons each be 100% of god? Either he's a corporation with a board of three members, but no, the three don't meet and vote, each of them IS god; or there are three gods; but no, they're distinct persons making only one god.

A total nonsense. But that can happen in religion, as in life.
Trinity doesnt mean trinity doctrine.

They invented the doctrine, to explain the triune godhood.

They didn't invent the theology.
 
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Tumah

Veteran Member
in orthodox christianity they believe God is a Trinity, meaning one God with three distinct faces. but why does God have three faces and not just one since he is one God? the answer is love. God is love and love has meaning only when there are many and not just one. father, son, and the holy spirit coexist harmoniously under the name of love and we ought to follow their example and live all as brothers and sisters in the name of God's love.
That answer leaves more questions then answers.

  • According to your response, you're essentially saying that the concept of love has three facets and they are a father a son and a holy spirit. What does that mean?
  • Also, if there existed a specific number of "faces" does that mean that "number" existed in tandem with god's existence? That seems like an argument for two gods: love and numbers.
  • If there is the ability to exist three distinct faces of this god, does that mean that "difference" or "distinction" existed in tandem with god? That seems like an argument for for the god of "difference/distinction".
  • Why three and not two? It seems like that would have been enough to express your principle of love only having meaning when there are many.
  • Why not four? or infinite? It seems like with a lot more facets, the impact of the principle might have been greater.
  • Why does love not have a friend face? A mother face? A daughter face?
  • People can feel and express love - by your reasoning, they are expressing the Christian god. How are the three distinct facets of the father, son and holy spirit expressed by a husband to his wife?
  • Possibly aside for a few psychopaths, everyone in the world feels love - and by your definition, the Christian god. If everyone is already intimately connected to your god whether they recognize it or not, what more is necessary?
  • Why would "love" create a person who is physically incapable of feeling "love"? Is that loving?
  • If "love" already found expression in itself through the love between its three facets, why is there another step called creation? And if another step is somehow useful, then why is an infinite number of creations not?
  • Psychopaths aside, if even the worst guy in the world loves someone, what more did love accomplish to bring people closer to itself with the facet of Jesus being sent to earth?
  • If the Christian god is "love" does that mean that its not omnipotent since it can't act outside the boundaries of "love"?
  • If "love" is the First Cause and there is hate in the world, does that mean that love creates hate?
  • If god is love, does that mean that there is no justice, since love loves the victim and the perpetrator the same? Isn't love going to let the perpetrator off because love loves them? Can it do any other?
Personally, I think the concept of the Trinity was invented because the early Church needed a way to add Jesus to the pantheon. So it turned the "spirit of G-d" mentioned in the Tanach into G-d and used that as a precedent to elevate Jesus to the same status.
 

Rival

Si m'ait Dieus
Staff member
Premium Member
That answer leaves more questions then answers.

  • According to your response, you're essentially saying that the concept of love has three facets and they are a father a son and a holy spirit. What does that mean?
  • Also, if there existed a specific number of "faces" does that mean that "number" existed in tandem with god's existence? That seems like an argument for two gods: love and numbers.
  • If there is the ability to exist three distinct faces of this god, does that mean that "difference" or "distinction" existed in tandem with god? That seems like an argument for for the god of "difference/distinction".
  • Why three and not two? It seems like that would have been enough to express your principle of love only having meaning when there are many.
  • Why not four? or infinite? It seems like with a lot more facets, the impact of the principle might have been greater.
  • Why does love not have a friend face? A mother face? A daughter face?
  • People can feel and express love - by your reasoning, they are expressing the Christian god. How are the three distinct facets of the father, son and holy spirit expressed by a husband to his wife?
  • Possibly aside for a few psychopaths, everyone in the world feels love - and by your definition, the Christian god. If everyone is already intimately connected to your god whether they recognize it or not, what more is necessary?
  • Why would "love" create a person who is physically incapable of feeling "love"? Is that loving?
  • If "love" already found expression in itself through the love between its three facets, why is there another step called creation? And if another step is somehow useful, then why is an infinite number of creations not?
  • Psychopaths aside, if even the worst guy in the world loves someone, what more did love accomplish to bring people closer to itself with the facet of Jesus being sent to earth?
  • If the Christian god is "love" does that mean that its not omnipotent since it can't act outside the boundaries of "love"?
  • If "love" is the First Cause and there is hate in the world, does that mean that love creates hate?
  • If god is love, does that mean that there is no justice, since love loves the victim and the perpetrator the same? Isn't love going to let the perpetrator off because love loves them? Can it do any other?
Personally, I think the concept of the Trinity was invented because the early Church needed a way to add Jesus to the pantheon. So it turned the "spirit of G-d" mentioned in the Tanach into G-d and used that as a precedent to elevate Jesus to the same status.
You forgot to drop the mic again, Rav.
 

Oeste

Well-Known Member
You see the problem? How can three distinct persons each be 100% of god? Either he's a corporation with a board of three members, but no, the three don't meet and vote, each of them IS god; or there are three gods; but no, they're distinct persons making only one god.

Ah, so you do understand the doctrine as coherent.

It's the fact corporations vote that makes it confusing for you. Is this correct?

I seem to recall the last we spoke it was the "shares" that mysteriously blocked coherency for you.

A total nonsense. But that can happen in religion, as in life.

It can happen anywhere, even the in the land of atheism, on this forum or others.

However atheists don't believe scripture, so it comes as no surprise when they bang their cymbals to announce they don't believe in the Trinity.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Ah, so you do understand the doctrine as coherent.
Not at all. None of the analogies work.

In a corporation neither the shareholders nor the directors are the corporation. The directors are merely agents of the corporation.

In a partnership, same thing. No partner is the partnership, and if he were, the others wouldn't be and it wouldn't be a partnership.

But with the Trinity, you have three separate and distinct 'persons', Yahweh, Jesus and Ghost, and each of them is 100% of the single God. You could correctly say that was incoherent, or nonsense, or impossible. And if 'mystery' is the correct term for the Trinity doctrine, then a 'mystery' is something that's incoherent, a nonsense, impossible.

Now if the Trinity were in a comic, this wouldn't matter. Batman, Green Lantern, the Incredible Hulk do a dozen impossible things every episode.

But the allegation is that the Trinity's real, has / have objective existence, exists / exist independently of anyone's imagination. And that allegation is logical hooey, for the reasons I mentioned.

By the way, a matter of etiquette. What is the pronoun for the triune god? Them? It?

However atheists don't believe scripture
First, technically I'm not an atheist, but nothing hangs on it.

Second, if scripture is incoherent, that's not atheism's fault. Blame your own editorial section for poor draftsmanship. And you can tell it IS incoherent, because both the RCC and the Piscos and no doubt others have to euphemize it as a 'mystery'.
 
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syo

Well-Known Member
According to your response, you're essentially saying that the concept of love has three facets and they are a father a son and a holy spirit. What does that mean?
it means that the father the son and the holy spirit coexist in harmony and they co-create.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
no. hate is the absence of love. love doesn't create hate.
Ok, so let's try that out.
In the beginning the only thing in existence was love. Then love created everything. Even its absence which previously hadn't existed.

it means that the father the son and the holy spirit coexist in harmony and they co-create.
If my question was, "what do the three facets of love do?" then that would have been a great response. But my question is, "what does it mean that the concept of love has three facets and that they are a father, a son and a holy spirit?
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
my question is, "what does it mean that the concept of love has three facets and that they are a father, a son and a holy spirit?
Perhaps they had a reorganization, so the Father's head of administration, the Son is head of marketing and the Ghost does public relations which puts [him?] in charge of love?
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
The answer is so simple that most Christians just can't grasp it.

There is only one God. But that God manifests apart from us, within us, and through us to each other. Hence, the three manifestation of one Divine Being. (The external, the internal, and the interactive.)
Seems awfully self-centred to assume that the God of the universe is the way he is for the benefit of people.
 

syo

Well-Known Member
Ok, so let's try that out.
In the beginning the only thing in existence was love. Then love created everything. Even its absence which previously hadn't existed.
who told you that? in the beginning there were both love and hate, but love is stronger than hate, that's why everything exists.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
who told you that? in the beginning there were both love and hate, but love is stronger than hate, that's why everything exists.
I'm getting more confused. Are you a Christian polytheist? There was a god love and the anti-god hate?
 

syo

Well-Known Member
I'm getting more confused. Are you a Christian polytheist? There was a god love and the anti-god hate?
god knows everything including hate, the opposite of love. and he knows that hate is weaker than love and hate doesn't create. but it still exists as the opposite. it is not wise to live in hate, even though it exists.
 
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