Who you vote for is indicative of what you may believe in

[sun rise]

Oh and I don’t care about his morals.”

Those who complained about morals when a Democrat was president and now does not care is stating that he or she is a tribal person who only uses moral arguments when it's against the other tribe but is at best amoral. (NB: this applies to any Democrat who ignores morals on the left but gets upset at right immorality).

To me there are two areas where ethics/morality operate. One is personal. I don't care who is in bet with whom - it's their business. I do care when people are politically immoral and violate the norms of our nation and what it stands for as trump does every day.

So my question is "how can you support someone who hates America and our ideals and sucks up to dictators wanting to be one"?

 

[Nakosis]

I tried to represent all the major views I could think of, including my own.
Note that I didn't falsely attribute any to individuals.
So your accusation fails utterly.

I've extensive given reasons for finding Trump the likely lesser of 2 evils.
To claim I cannot & have not is misrepresenting the truth, & my posting history.
I'm tolerant....I even allow that preferring Hillary can be reasonable.
We just disagree in our assessments.
But don't try to convince me that I don't hold all the views I hold.
That's just embarrassing for you.

Just accept the fact that if you didn't vote for Clinton you are morally corrupt.

 

[Revoltingest]

Just accept the fact that if you didn't vote for Clinton you are morally corrupt.

So it seems.
Although I might be tolerated if I'd voted for John Bachtell.

 

[Duke_Leto]

I know a few people who voted for Trump in the hope that his presidency would be a relatively mild shock to the system, getting people to pay more attention to politics and spur the American political framework further to the left rather than continue the unconscious rightward trend epitomized by HRC. I think sometimes it may have worked.

 

[suncowiam]

Well, I don't really think of myself as a pure liberal but I label myself as a liberal simply based on my voting history. It's been consistent to Democrats.

When discussing policies, I'm more of a centrist that leans to the left. But even I have to acknowledge that "ACTIONS SPEAKS LOUDER THAN WORDS."

That's why I question some that suggests they're not conservative but, yet, they vote for conservative policies.

 

[Revoltingest]

Well, I don't really think of myself as a pure liberal but I label myself as a liberal simply based on my voting history. It's been consistent to Democrats.

When discussing policies, I'm more of a centrist that leans to the left. But even I have to acknowledge that "ACTIONS SPEAKS LOUDER THAN WORDS."

That's why I question some that suggests they're not conservative but, yet, they vote for conservative policies.

Other than local elections, we don't get to vote for policies.
But when voting for candidates, I notice that many, if not
most, vote for candidates they don't entirely agree with.
This can confuse judging their political orientation.

 

[suncowiam]

Other than local elections, we don't get to vote for policies.
But when voting for candidates, I notice that many, if not
most, vote for candidates they don't entirely agree with.
This can confuse judging their political orientation.

True, but voting is the one action that puts into reality what we believe.
[Edited] Let me rephrase that. Voting will instill policies regardless of what was marketed. If you're voting for the same candidate twice then there should be less of doubt about what policies you support.



What truly does come from our all discussions here on RF? Not much...

 

[Revoltingest]

True, but voting is the one action that puts into reality what we believe.
[Edited] Let me rephrase that. Voting will instill policies regardless of what was marketed. If you're voting for the same candidate twice then there should be less of doubt about what policies you support.

This isn't quite right.
We don't always vote for a candidate based upon what they say, ie, what was marketed.
We certainly know that that some campaign promises are either dishonest or unachievable.
And so we (the more careful ones) vote based upon what we believe will be the likely
effects of a candidate when in office.
For example, I'd have voted for Bernie over Donald, despite his campaign promises of
socialism. I know that he'd fail to achieve that horror, so that promise didn't matter.
But one thing I expected him to succeed at was a more peaceful foreign policy.

What truly does come from our all discussions here on RF? Not much...

Entertainment.

 

[Cooky]

This is somewhat a spinoff thread from the other two threads concerning the dangers of being a Trump voter and Trump hater. Me personally I do not hate Trump cause for one, I've never met the man but I hate what he stands for. I hate the fact that the man called for the execution of the central park 5 taking out an ad in the paper. When they were found to be not guilty he still never had taken down the ad. I hate the fact that the man was sued for housing discrimination, yet settled out of court (surely anyone who is not racist would find it highly offensive to be accused of discrimination as this label can indeed follow you throughout life). He has made other comments about blacks, Jews, women, the disabled, and yet this man found himself to be the U.S. president.

What I've learned since the Obama presidency is that race matters and we live in a highly racialized society where people are still not completely ready for a president of color. Sure Obama was the first, but he teeter-tottered between discussing black agendas and seriously engaging them. Other minority groups had their agendas met and he (Obama) engaged them. During his presidency America has taught me what you look like counts what's on the outside for example:

View attachment 27069

America has taught me that you cannot have a name like Barack Hussein Obama without being labeled a "Muslim" simply because your father was one, and because your name is of Arabic descent. I for one voted for Obama because he had progressive ideals for change. Prior to my graduating in 2009, many of us students were happy to have a president that leveled with us young students and inspired us to heavenly goals. He seemed down to earth, cool, articulate and a handsome fellow and for the other things Obama is known for he just so happened to be the first African-American to do this! I am a progressive by that very nature I vote on the basis of whether a president can exert ideals and enact policies to reflect the progress America is making in equalizing the United States. Was Obama perfect? No, not by a long shot. Obama was the establishment, but I understand that one can only hope that the next president will be true catalyst of change.

But then we come back to Trump........

What I never understood why anyone could vote for a man like Trump. No political experience, inarticulate, always the center of controversy, a television entertainer. He by definition is not even a model Christian who even said on live television that he does not need to even ask for God's forgiveness. Trump is a conglomerate of what presidential isn't, and the very nature of an individual who throws rocks and hides their hands. I've heard of those who voted for Trump overlooking his checkered past, but more so focusing on Hillary I believe the following article can articulate something similar:

"One financially well-off and influential individual I spoke to announced himself as a “Trumpster.” “As a Trumpster,” he said, “I felt he had the better plan for the country. Oh and I don’t care about his morals.” He went on to dismiss my questions about character and bigotry. I also overheard a couple discussing the election by the fire at a gorgeous Virginia hotel; their comments revealed they were firmly in the “I hate Hillary and would vote for anyone to keep the Clintons from getting into the White House again” camp. I have also read more about my fellow Americans who voted for Trump because you have suffered severe economic loss and feel unheard by our country and government."

In my mind and how I feel when Trump voters find Trump's racism as secondary to their own economic interest I find it sad and very telling about who they are. It is akin to Louis Farrakhan becoming president and with all his anti-white and anti-Semitic rhetoric that he exhibits that is like me coming on here singing his praises and overlooking his faults. I'm sure many of you would have created many threads on Farrakhan as a racist and paint him very negatively, and I think it is because you would be the marginalized group, white Americans or Caucasians regardless of European ancestry. But when it comes to people of color, many Trump voters make excuses on Trump's racist policies as something to the effect of "he is protecting this country" or one might say "oh that is his past!" Because you're not the targeted community you therefore find less of a connection and are less likely to relate to the marginalization of minorities. What makes it a problem for me is when Americans can overlook racism and can overlook a president who proclaims that there are good people among white nationalists who have centuries of history in this country which has perpetuated violence against tens of millions of black Americans, I have a big problem.

I wish Trump voters who do in fact overlook these things do some real soul searching......I offer the following solutions to Trump voters:

"So if you voted for Trump and you are not a racist, you have a lot of work to do for the common good, to reverse the vitriol that your candidate has fomented. To remain silent, or simply insist that you are not a racist, will not be enough if this country is going to continue to grow and thrive in this complex world. There is no such thing as passive anti-racism."


"If you are not a racist and you are a business leader who voted for Trump, you need to say I voted for Trump and I am against “othering” and excluding people. You need to double down on efforts to create a workplace that is open and fair where opportunity is equally given. You must set an example of inclusive behavior and a safe space for those to share different opinions. If you don’t, you will be operating in a diverse world without the power, relevance, financial success, and ingenuity that a talented and diverse workforce offers."

"If you are not a bigot and you are a parent who voted for Trump, you must sit your children down now. Don’t wait for them to ask. Tell them that they are not better than anyone else, and demand they show respect and kindness to others no matter what their background."

"If you are not a racist, and you are a writer, musician or artist who voted for Trump, you need to start creating work that calls out and denounces bigotry and separation and begins to heal the pain, confusion and despair that Americans regardless of political affiliation are experiencing right now. Art is about reflecting, reframing and rebirthing; we are in desperate need of the language of inclusion and a new vision for our nation."

"If you are not a racist and you are a pastor or a lay Christian who voted for Trump, we need you to pray for those who seem bent on destroying others and show the love of God to those on the other side. As I read 1 Corinthians 13:4-6: “Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth...” This is the kind of love I mean."

"If you are not a racist, and you are a police officer who voted for Trump, you must be willing not to bear down on protesters when they are exercising their right to free assembly and speech. Try to see them as your sons and daughters, brothers and sisters, those whose lives you cherish and are sworn to protect and serve."

"So, if you are not a racist and you voted for Trump, you must be courageous enough to interrupt the bias and stand for the respect and the dignity of all humans whether you see that bias on social media, at your dinner table, your locker room, your company or your town meeting—whether it means speaking up to your family, your friends, your religious leaders or a stranger. You can interrupt this repugnant behavior in a way that I cannot. I know you voted for your own interest last week, but I pray you remember there is a larger interest at stake, one that connects and affects us all -the preservation of the common good. Your election of Trump has made that harder. So STAND UP, announce who you voted for and declare that you will not allow the bigotry to continue. This is your duty; this is your obligation, this is your work."

Then if you don't want to do the above then as a Trump voter you ought to exclaim proudly that you do in fact have racial prejudices....

If You Voted For Trump And You're Not A Racist, You Have A Lot Of Work To Do | HuffPost

I voted for Trump based solely on his America First agenda, his severing of globalist agendas, and for the hope that he would bring manufacturing back with tariffs on Chinese made goods (which miraculously, actually happened).

I did not vote for Trump based on any kind of racial thing, or on what CNN or MSNBC say about him.

 

[Revoltingest]

I voted for Trump based solely on his America First agenda, his severing of globalist agendas, and for the hope that he would bring manufacturing back with tariffs on Chinese made goods (which miraculously, actually happened).

I did not vote for Trump based on any kind of racial thing, or on what CNN or MSNBC say about him.

It's difficult to convey one's reasons to the fervent anti-Trumpettes.
They've so much invested in seeing us as racist misogynists that our real
reasons become invisible. I just had a conversation with another poster
who completely ignored every reason I've ever given except for her being
a hawk (as though even that weren't a significant consideration).
Alas, it is all too typical that we run up against simplistic & false criticism.

 

[Jeremiah Ames]

There is the age old question.....
There are only 2 candidates with any possibility of winning.
The election will be close, so one's vote has more power than usual.
Both candidates are unsavory, & hold views one abhors.
One's choices....
- Vote for the greater of 2 evils.
- Vote for the lesser of 2 evils.
- Vote third party or not at all, thereby having no influence on the outcome.
I can sympathize with the last 2 options, having practiced both.

Of course, there are complexities.
Some voters have different criteria, eg, single issue voters....
- Vote pro-choice.
- Vote pro-life.
- Never vote for the p***y grabber.
- It's time for a woman.
- Vote for one's party.
- Vote for one's religion.
But these aren't reasonable because they ignore the larger picture.

If everyone used their brain, and voted for the 3rd candidate, then the 2 evils would receive exactly what they deserve.

 

[Jeremiah Ames]

I voted for Trump based solely on his America First agenda, his severing of globalist agendas, and for the hope that he would bring manufacturing back with tariffs on Chinese made goods (which miraculously, actually happened).

I did not vote for Trump based on any kind of racial thing, or on what CNN or MSNBC say about him.

That’s so sad.

America first? That means everyone else second? Or last?

Not a concept found in Jesus. He came as a servant to all, not a wall builder.

So sad.

 

[Revoltingest]

If everyone used their brain, and voted for the 3rd candidate, then the 2 evils would receive exactly what they deserve.

Dreamer.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

It's difficult to convey one's reasons to the fervent anti-Trumpettes.
They've so much invested in seeing us as racist misogynists that our real
reasons become invisible. I just had a conversation with another poster
who completely ignored every reason I've ever given except for her being
a hawk (as though even that weren't a significant consideration).
Alas, it is all too typical that we run up against simplistic & false criticism.

What I actually said is that your arguments are largely single issue. And they are. Most of your other criticisms I've heard, such as vague allusions to corruption, are doubly true of Trump.

And largely ignoring (and I daresay apologetics) and perpetuation of racism and misogyny of Trump and his administration is also not an 'insignificant consideration.' Although, again, I gave a laundry list of objections if Trump.

 

[Revoltingest]

What I actually said is that your arguments are largely single issue.

The "largely" qualifier is movement in the right direction, since this allows for other concerns.
But you've ignored pre-election factors I'd covered, eg...
USSC justice appointments, regulatory agenda, tax reform, security competence.

Note: All factors are weighted differently.

Most of your other criticisms I've heard, such as vague allusions to corruption, are doubly true of Trump.

The "most" qualifier is also improvement.
We cannot excuse her corruption using the "Trump does it too!" claim.
During the campaign, Hillary's corruption was established.
Trump's is still under investigation.
So considering corruption as one of the voting criteria, it works against her more.
Btw, I've called out Trump for failing to honor payment to contractors.
(He was a type of customer I'd learned to not do business with.)

He could very well turn out to be worse than Hillary.
But hind sight is 20 20.
So if you want to re-live the campaign era evaluations of the candidates,
then objectivity requires dealing with what was knowable then.

And largely ignoring (and I daresay apologetics) and perpetuation of racism and misogyny of Trump and his administration is also not an 'insignificant consideration.' Although, again, I gave a laundry list of objections if Trump.

I understand that you find Trump personally offensive.
So do I.
But unlike many voters, I vote based upon the effect a candidate would
likely have in & after office. So I'll even vote for someone I dislike, eg,
Bernie Sanders (had he gotten the Democrat nomination).

 

[Cooky]

That’s so sad.

America first? That means everyone else second? Or last?

Not a concept found in Jesus. He came as a servant to all, not a wall builder.

So sad.

The main problem with your objective, is that by bringing everyone up to our level, actually translates into reducing us to their level.

...That's not something I want for my children's children. It's not the ideals this country was founded on, which we ought to respect IMO.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

I voted for Trump based solely on his America First agenda, his severing of globalist agendas, and for the hope that he would bring manufacturing back with tariffs on Chinese made goods (which miraculously, actually happened).

I did not vote for Trump based on any kind of racial thing, or on what CNN or MSNBC say about him.

America first yet you totally ignored the rest of the OP...

 

[Epic Beard Man]

I'm surprised the Trumpsters cannot address the rest of the post.

 

[Revoltingest]

I'm surprised the Trumpsters cannot address the rest of the post.

When it's TLTR, & is likely just more of the same old same old,
those of us with short attention spans aren't inspired to read it all.
So we respond to what you've highlighted.
I recommend giving a synopsis at the outset.
And try experimenting with brevity.

 

[Woberts]

his severing of globalist agendas

And yet you can't even prove they exist.