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Who will get to heaven?

Thief

Rogue Theologian
How would you justify this against the widespread claim of YHVH's omniscience?
this form we call human
is intended to form spirit

a unique spirit on each occasion

for that to happen the form is set loose to fend for itself
Go forth be fruitful and multiply

we have done that
and perhaps more than once

if the spiritual portion is not forming well.....
a purge seems the thing to do

flood
fire
famine
plague

reduce the numbers
and the survivors thank God
 

Rubellite Fae

Yakṣī
Incorrect since it does. Do the math. Others already have: How Old Is the Earth?

Genesis says "a day". Moving the goalposts to "creative days" means the Bible is wrong, otherwise why use the term "day"? Why not say "eternal period" or some other term? No matter your answer, it does effect the literal veracity of Genesis. Now, if you concede it's parable, that's a different matter.

Strong says the Hebrew yom can mean:
afternoon, age, all, always, amount (of time), battle, birthday, Chronicles, completely, continually, course, daily, day, day of the days, day that the period, days ago, each day, entire, eternity, evening, ever in your life, fate, first, forever, forevermore, full, full year, future, holiday, later, length (of time), life, lifetime, long, midday, now, older, once, period, perpetually, present, recently, reign, ripe, short-lived, so long, some time, survived, time, times, today, usual, very old, when, when the day,, whenever, while, whole, year, yearly, yesterday.

So, the only thing we can say about Gen 1:5 is it was "a whole period of time." As reckoned by whom, we cannot know.
 
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Rubellite Fae

Yakṣī
this form we call human
is intended to form spirit

a unique spirit on each occasion

for that to happen the form is set loose to fend for itself
Go forth be fruitful and multiply

we have done that
and perhaps more than once

if the spiritual portion is not forming well.....
a purge seems the thing to do

flood
fire
famine
plague

reduce the numbers
and the survivors thank God

I can't fully understand what you are getting at. Punctuation and such could help. Regardless, this doesn't seem to answer the question. If God is omniscient, then he wouldn't have to use trial and error as you have described.
 

Road Warrior

Seeking the middle path..
While I agree, the concept of "before time" cannot be logically conceived. It's like trying to discuss negative length.
Correct, but that's a limitation of language, not the concept. OTOH, I'm sure there's people who believe the Universe just magically popped into existence without reason or cause.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
So, is there a verse in the Bible that says that?

Since you weren't specific as to what "that" refers to I will answer both.

I believe there is a verse that says everyone is a sinner.

I believe information about Heaven came directly from God. I don't remember a verse saying that specifically. However one might infer that from the Kingdom of Heaven which is akin to Heaven. So the righteousness of Heaven would be the same as the righteousness of the Kingdom of Heaven. In a sense wanting to go to Heaven is similar to asking Jesus to be Savior because the end result is an inability to sin although Heaven guarantees that more than salvation does.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
I find what is a requirement for both: people called to Heaven, or called to live forever on Earth has to do with what Jesus said at Matthew 7:21 but to do God's will, God's requirements.
Requirements that require one to listen to Jesus' instructions.
Jesus' instructions such as found at Matthew 24:13-14; 28:18-20; Acts of the Apostles 1:8; John 13:34-35

I believe that amounts to the same thing. A person can't claim he wants to avoid evil if in fact he is enjoying every minute of his evil ways.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Well you obviously don't if you think there is anything good about the Biblical god, if the deeds attributed to it have any credibility.:mad:

I believe I will line up my arguments against yours and God will be good and your view will be evil as it is already obvious that it is to me.
 

JJ50

Well-Known Member
I believe I will line up my arguments against yours and God will be good and your view will be evil as it is already obvious that it is to me.
The deeds attributed to the god character are evil.:mad: You seem to be viewing it through rose coloured spectacles. Of course it is more than likely it doesn't actually exist, I hope that is the case.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Who will get to heaven?

Allah has told us thus:
Arabic
ir
قَدْ أَفْلَحَ الْمُؤْمِنُونَ
Sher Ali
ir
Successful indeed are the believers,
Arabic
ir
الَّذِينَ هُمْ فِي صَلَاتِهِمْ خَاشِعُونَ
Sher Ali
ir
Who are humble in their Prayers,
Arabic
ir
وَالَّذِينَ هُمْ عَنِ اللَّغْوِ مُعْرِضُونَ
Sher Ali
ir
And who shun all that which is vain,
Arabic
ir
وَالَّذِينَ هُمْ لِلزَّكَاةِ فَاعِلُونَ
Sher Ali
ir
And who are prompt and regular in paying the Zakat,
Arabic
ir
وَالَّذِينَ هُمْ لِفُرُوجِهِمْ حَافِظُونَ
Sher Ali
ir
And who guard their chastity -
Arabic
ir
إِلَّا عَلَىٰ أَزْوَاجِهِمْ أَوْ مَا مَلَكَتْ أَيْمَانُهُمْ فَإِنَّهُمْ غَيْرُ مَلُومِينَ
Sher Ali
ir
Except from their wives or what their right hands possess, for then they are not to be blamed;

(Continued in the next post, please)
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Arabic
ir
فَمَنِ ابْتَغَىٰ وَرَاءَ ذَٰلِكَ فَأُولَٰئِكَ هُمُ الْعَادُونَ
Sher Ali
ir
But those, who seek anything beyond that are the transgressors -
Arabic
ir
وَالَّذِينَ هُمْ لِأَمَانَاتِهِمْ وَعَهْدِهِمْ رَاعُونَ
Sher Ali
ir
And who are watchful of their trusts and their covenants,
Arabic
ir
وَالَّذِينَ هُمْ عَلَىٰ صَلَوَاتِهِمْ يُحَافِظُونَ
Sher Ali
ir
And who are strict in the observance of their Prayers.
Arabic
ir
أُولَٰئِكَ هُمُ الْوَارِثُونَ
Sher Ali
ir
These are the heirs,
Arabic
ir
الَّذِينَ يَرِثُونَ الْفِرْدَوْسَ هُمْ فِيهَا خَالِدُونَ
Sher Ali
ir
Who will inherit Paradise. They will abide therein for ever.
al-Mu`minun 23:11


This is my understanding from Quran, others could believe differently as per their religion/no-religion or faith/no-faith, please. Right, please?

Regards
 

lostwanderingsoul

Well-Known Member
Arabic
ir
فَمَنِ ابْتَغَىٰ وَرَاءَ ذَٰلِكَ فَأُولَٰئِكَ هُمُ الْعَادُونَ
Sher Ali
ir
But those, who seek anything beyond that are the transgressors -
Arabic
ir
وَالَّذِينَ هُمْ لِأَمَانَاتِهِمْ وَعَهْدِهِمْ رَاعُونَ
Sher Ali
ir
And who are watchful of their trusts and their covenants,
Arabic
ir
وَالَّذِينَ هُمْ عَلَىٰ صَلَوَاتِهِمْ يُحَافِظُونَ
Sher Ali
ir
And who are strict in the observance of their Prayers.
Arabic
ir
أُولَٰئِكَ هُمُ الْوَارِثُونَ
Sher Ali
ir
These are the heirs,
Arabic
ir
الَّذِينَ يَرِثُونَ الْفِرْدَوْسَ هُمْ فِيهَا خَالِدُونَ
Sher Ali
ir
Who will inherit Paradise. They will abide therein for ever.
al-Mu`minun 23:11


This is my understanding from Quran, others could believe differently as per their religion/no-religion or faith/no-faith, please. Right, please?

Regards
If you read the last line you will see it says they will inherit "paradise". Can you be completely sure that paradise means the same as heaven> The Bible is the same way. It says people may enter God's kingdom but why can't God be king of the earth? I continue to say there is nothing in Bible or Quran that actually says HEAVEN and that people will go there after death.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
If you read the last line you will see it says they will inherit "paradise". Can you be completely sure that paradise means the same as heaven> The Bible is the same way. It says people may enter God's kingdom but why can't God be king of the earth? I continue to say there is nothing in Bible or Quran that actually says HEAVEN and that people will go there after death.
"HEAVEN"

Quran uses the Arabic word "Firdous" which has been translated as paradise , it could be translated as Heaven.

Regards
 

lostwanderingsoul

Well-Known Member
"HEAVEN"

Quran uses the Arabic word "Firdous" which has been translated as paradise , it could be translated as Heaven.

Regards
Could be, should be, would be. The translators decided to us "paradise". I do not know why. But I repeat that nothing in Quran or Bible says "heaven". Maybe it could and maybe it should but it does NOT.
 

Bird123

Well-Known Member
What is this evidence?


Think back really hard. What is the very first thing you remember in life?

Mine was the installation.

Seek out the very youngest of children. Many can still tell the difference from their body and who they really are.

This physical world provides so much sensory input that it's easy to become seduced into thinking the physical world is all there is.

A good start for anyone to discover who they are is to set up a condition with very little sensory input. Find a dark quiet comfortable room. Close your eyes and focus inward. Say to yourself. It's me.
Yes, who you really are has never changed. Your focus has just been with this physical world and the lessons to be learned.
 

Jos

Well-Known Member
Think back really hard. What is the very first thing you remember in life?
I honestly don't know. I can't remember that far back.
Mine was the installation.
What is 'the installation'?
Many can still tell the difference from their body and who they really are.
Who are they really?
A good start for anyone to discover who they are is to set up a condition with very little sensory input. Find a dark quiet comfortable room. Close your eyes and focus inward. Say to yourself. It's me.
Yes, who you really are has never changed. Your focus has just been with this physical world and the lessons to be learned.
Have you done this? Did you gain or learn anything and if you did, what is it?
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Could be, should be, would be. The translators decided to us "paradise". I do not know why. But I repeat that nothing in Quran or Bible says "heaven". Maybe it could and maybe it should but it does NOT.
"heaven"

Heaven is an English word while Quran is in Arabic language, so it is not there in literal terms.

heaven (n.)
Old English heofon "home of God," earlier "the visible sky, firmament," probably from Proto-Germanic *hibin-, a dissimilation of *himin- (source also of Low German heben, Old Norse himinn, Gothic himins, Old Frisian himul, Dutch hemel, German Himmel "heaven, sky"), which is of uncertain and disputed origin.

Perhaps it means literally "a covering," from a PIE root *kem- "to cover" (which also has been proposed as the source of chemise). Watkins derives it elaborately from PIE *ak- "sharp" via *akman- "stone, sharp stone," then "stony vault of heaven."

The English word is attested from late 14c. as "a heavenly place; a state of bliss." The plural use in sense of "sky" probably is from the Ptolemaic theory of space as composed of many spheres, but it also formerly was used in the same sense in the singular in Biblical language, as a translation of Hebrew plural shamayim. Heaven-sent (adj.) is attested from 1640s.
heaven | Origin and meaning of heaven by Online Etymology Dictionary

paradise (n.)
late 12c., "Garden of Eden," from Old French paradis "paradise, Garden of Eden" (11c.), from Late Latin paradisus, from Greek paradeisos "park, paradise, Garden of Eden," from an Iranian source similar to Avestan pairidaeza "enclosure, park" (Modern Persian and Arabic firdaus "garden, paradise"), compound of pairi- "around" (from PIE root *per- (1) "forward," hence "in front of, near, against, around") + diz "to make, to form (a wall)."

The first element is cognate with Greek peri "around, about" (see per), the second is from PIE root *dheigh- "to form, build."

The Greek word, originally used for an orchard or hunting park in Persia, was used in Septuagint to mean "Garden of Eden," and in New Testament translations of Luke xxiii.43 to mean "heaven" (a sense attested in English from c. 1200). Meaning "place like or compared to Paradise" is from c. 1300.

paradise | Origin and meaning of paradise by Online Etymology Dictionary

Regards
 
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