1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Who? What Lord Sent Jesus

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Fool, Aug 8, 2018.

  1. Sleeppy

    Sleeppy Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2011
    Messages:
    5,752
    Ratings:
    +404
    Anyone can do these things.

    But, interesting subtle difference between Isaiah's version and Jesus'. Also, Isaiah names the Lord, YHVH. Yeshua/Jesus does not.
     
  2. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2015
    Messages:
    4,489
    Ratings:
    +2,598
    Religion:
    Christian
    Good question!

    When we also read Jesus’ words @ John 17:3, those two verses help us to understand that YHWH / YHVH / Yahweh / Jehovah is the Father Jesus referred to...the One who “sent” him.

    It is Who Jesus meant @ John 20:17. His God is Yahweh.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  3. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2016
    Messages:
    8,126
    Ratings:
    +1,351
    Religion:
    Light Impressed with Love
    yes, but he doesn't say i am the lord, he says the Spirit of the Lord as in the third person point of view.
     
  4. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Messages:
    8,976
    Ratings:
    +4,586
    Religion:
    Christian JW
    Obviously when Jesus picked up the scroll of Isaiah to read it in the synagogue, he read what was what we today call Isaiah 61:1, 2, where God’s name appears more than once. (Luke 4:16-21) Would he have refused to pronounce the divine name there, substituting “Lord” or “God”? Of course not. That would have meant following the unscriptural tradition of the Jewish religious leaders. But of Jesus it was said: "for he was teaching them as one who had authority, and not as their scribes.” (Matthew 7:29)

    In fact, as we learned earlier, he taught his followers to pray to God: “hallowed by thy name.” (Matthew 6:9) And in prayer on the night before his execution, he said to his Father: “I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word. . . . Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one.” (John 17:6; 11)

    So the "Lord" who sent Jesus was his Father, whose spirit anointed his son as the Christ at his baptism.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  5. Sleeppy

    Sleeppy Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2011
    Messages:
    5,752
    Ratings:
    +404
    I don't think he was referring to himself.
     
  6. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2016
    Messages:
    8,126
    Ratings:
    +1,351
    Religion:
    Light Impressed with Love
    the prophet was to use the name when he she was sent. so anyone picking that scroll up and reading and understanding it, would have said the same about self. isaiah was speaking of being annointed himself, not another.

    the prophets were called the sons of god, they all took the name. it was required; when being sent.


    fyi,

    John 1:12
    But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

    Matthew 5:9
    Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

    this is why you are to pray, "Our Father".
     
  7. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Messages:
    8,976
    Ratings:
    +4,586
    Religion:
    Christian JW
    Isaiah was not just prophesying about himself. Jesus words confirm that the prophesy was fulfilled in himself.

    He read:‘Jehovah’s spirit is upon me, because he anointed me to declare good news to the poor, he sent me forth to preach a release to the captives and a recovery of sight to the blind, to send the crushed ones away with a release, to preach Jehovah’s acceptable year.’ With that he rolled up the scroll, handed it back to the attendant and sat down; and the eyes of all in the synagogue were intently fixed upon him. Then he started to say to them: ‘Today this scripture that you just heard is fulfilled.’” (Luke 4:18-21)

    He was quoting from Isaiah 61:1-2 which in the Tanach reads....

    "The spirit of the Lord God was upon me, since the Lord anointed me to bring tidings to the humble, He sent me to bind up the broken-hearted, to declare freedom for the captives, and for the prisoners to free from captivity. אר֛וּחַ אֲדֹנָ֥י יֱהֹוִ֖ה עָלָ֑י יַ֡עַן מָשַׁח֩ יְהֹוָ֨ה אֹתִ֜י לְבַשֵּׂ֣ר עֲנָוִ֗ים שְׁלָחַ֙נִי֙ לַֽחֲבֹ֣שׁ לְנִשְׁבְּרֵי־לֵ֔ב לִקְרֹ֚א לִשְׁבוּיִם֙ דְּר֔וֹר וְלַֽאֲסוּרִ֖ים פְּקַח־קֽוֹחַ:


    2To declare a year of acceptance for the Lord and a day of vengeance for our God, to console all mourners. בלִקְרֹ֚א שְׁנַת־רָצוֹן֙ לַֽיהֹוָ֔ה וְי֥וֹם נָקָ֖ם לֵֽאלֹהֵ֑ינוּ לְנַחֵ֖ם כָּל־אֲבֵלִֽים:"


    Jesus would not have refrained from using God's name when he read those verses (for the reasons already outlined.)

    "Sons of God" in the Bible are either created by him or adopted by him.
    Adam was called a son of God....angels are called sons of God because they were created by God. Jesus is a son of God but in the purest sense, he is called "the only begotten son" because he is the only direct creation of his Father, all other things were created through the agency of the son....who was the very beginning of his Father's creative works. (Revelation 3:14; Colossians 1:15-17)

    The ones 'adopted' as God's children were also called "sons of God". Not all who worship Jehovah are adopted however. Jesus said he had "brothers" because these ones were spiritually adopted to be sons of God and therefore legally became Christ's brothers.

    If you read all of that passage you will see something that isn't obvious at first glance.....

    Matthew 5:5-11....

    5 And seeing the multitudes, he went up into the mountain: and when he had sat down, his disciples came unto him: 2 and he opened his mouth and taught them, saying, 3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

    4 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.

    5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

    6 Blessed are they that hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

    7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.

    8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

    9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called sons of God.

    10 Blessed are they that have been persecuted for righteousness’ sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

    11 Blessed are ye when men shall reproach you, and persecute you, and say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake."


    There are two different groups mentioned here. Those who "inherit the earth"....and those who will "see God".

    Do we understand who the "peacemakers" are? They are different from today's "peacekeepers". There is not a carnal weapon in sight.

    Those who "inherit the earth" are humans, who will never "see God" because no human could survive the experience.....but those who "see God" cannot be humans for the same reason. They have to be raised in the same kind of spirit body that Jesus had..... "Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom." (1 Corinthians 15:50)

    When Jesus was resurrected, he returned to heaven in spirit form. (1 Peter 3:18)
    He promised his disciples that he was going to go and prepare a place for them...in heaven. But those who are going to inherit the earth, are the ones who will be ruled by those who are chosen to go to heaven. These rulers, the Bible calls "the bride of Christ". They are seen in Revelation with Jesus bringing their rulership to "mankind". (Revelation 21:2-4)....eliminating pain, suffering, sin and death forever.

    The kingdom arrangement has what all 'kingdoms' have....a "king" and a "dom"ain over which they rule. Those chosen to rule with Christ are said to be "priests" as well. (Revelation 20:6) Those who go to heaven do not need priests, but those who inherit the earth will, as they are still in their sinful flesh. One group has been released from their imperfect flesh, but the other hasn't. All of the first Christians were anointed for heavenly life...the NT was written by them and for them. But they are not the only ones saved.

    In Revelation 7:9-10;13-14 you will see two groups again....one numbered and one infinite.

    Revelation 7:4..."And I heard the number of those who were sealed, 144,000, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel"....then in verses 9-10 we see another group....
    "After this I saw, and look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands. 10 And they keep shouting with a loud voice, saying: “Salvation we owe to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb.”

    verse 13-14...."These who are dressed in the white robes, who are they and where did they come from?” 14 So right away I said to him: “My lord, you are the one who knows.” And he said to me: “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb".

    John identifies this unnumbered group as the ones who survive the great tribulation on earth.

    In Revelation 12:1-5, the 144,000 are mentioned again......John was told that "no one was able to master that song except the 144,000, who have been bought from the earth. . . . .These were bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb, 5 and no deceit was found in their mouths; they are without blemish."

    "Firstfruits" mean that others were to follow. These were the first chosen but not the last. These were the first resurrected, but not the last. (Revelation 20:6; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17)

    Jesus was teaching all of his disciples to pray to the one Father of all of us. The coming of the Kingdom will mean that God's will can be done in both realm, where rebellion will now be eliminated forever. Both angels and humans will have been judged worthy of either life or death. The final judgment will settle the issue of God's Universal Sovereignty once and for all. It will never be raised again. That is how I see the Bible's message.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  8. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2016
    Messages:
    8,126
    Ratings:
    +1,351
    Religion:
    Light Impressed with Love
    as i've explained to you. isaiah was speaking of himself. any prophet that was sent, was required to use the name to verify what Spirit sent him. the Spirit of God sent Isaiah. the Spirit of God sent Jesus, Jesus was a prophet.

    isaiah speaks of the name:

    isaiah 66:
    5 Hear the word of the Lord, you that tremble at his word; Your brethren that hated you, that cast you out for my name's sake, said, Let the Lord be glorified: but he shall appear to your joy, and they shall be ashamed.



    jesus even tells you this.
    John 5:43
    I am come in my Father's name, and you receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him you will receive.


    this is why the prophet's are called the sons of god, because they took the Father's name. they understood what it meant. malachi even refers to god as the Father of all mankind in malachi 2:10


    these are those of the Father too:

    Revelation 14:1
    And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
     
  9. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Messages:
    8,976
    Ratings:
    +4,586
    Religion:
    Christian JW
    What did you actually address out of my post?

    You simply don't want to listen to anything that might prove you wrong.

    I addressed everything you said with scripture to back up every point. That's a lot of scripture you ignored. :(
     
  10. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2016
    Messages:
    8,126
    Ratings:
    +1,351
    Religion:
    Light Impressed with Love
    logic fails at the first error it encounters. the program won't go any further; when it encounters a critical error

    isaiah spoke the truth about himself. jesus spoke the truth about himself too.

    the word is given to everyone and everyone is expected to follow through on it.

    it isn't given for some to project on to another or to absolve self.

    god is not a respecter of person and doesn't have different weights and measures.

    Deuteronomy 10:17 For the Lord your God is the God of gods and Lord of lords. He is the great God, the mighty and awesome God, who shows no partiality and cannot be bribed

    to do unto others as you would have done unto you is to hold everyone to the golden rule. there are no exceptions
     
    #11 Fool, Aug 9, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2018
  11. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Messages:
    8,976
    Ratings:
    +4,586
    Religion:
    Christian JW
    It appears as if you are unaware of the application of prophesy in more than one era. Jesus applied Isaiah's prophesy not just to the prophet's time, but also to "today" when he applied it to himself at the time he read it.

    The prophesy on the end of the age as given by Jesus in Matthew 24:3-14, had some application in the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 CE, but his words also indicate that it also applied to his second coming.....many centuries into the future.
     
Loading...