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Featured Who were responsible for the crusades.?

Discussion in 'Interfaith Discussion' started by Jeremiah Ames, Sep 19, 2017.

  1. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I find Christianity was never a major religion, but Christendom was. (remember Constantine) .
    Jesus even foretold that MANY would come 'in his name' but prove false at Matthew 7:21-23.
    After the death of the apostles genuine Christianity became apostate as per Acts of the Apostles 20:29-30.
    False clergy would be fleecing the flock of God for their own interests.
    They are in the marriage bed with the political according to Revelation 17:1-2,15.
    So, the teachings of 1st-century Christianity became tainted with non-biblical teachings taught as being Scripture.
    None of which makes the teachings of Jesus as wrong but makes such wrong teachings as wrong.
    We are at the time of Daniel 12:4; Daniel 12:9 when such wrongs are now being exposed.
     
  2. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    But it is possible that Jesus was tailoring that message to the times, quite possibly in response against the Zealots.

    Here's the problem: either Jesus felt the Law (all 613 of them), was important or not important. If they're not according to him, then he's a "false prophet" if he pretends to talk for God. If they are important, then there's an obligation to take up arms if necessary to try and protect the widows, children, and other what could be innocent victims.

    The church struggled with this as they grew in numbers and became the majority religion, such as what to do if their population could be massacred? Before they became the dominant religion in a given country, the question was moot, but once in control they had to make a decision. What eventually came out of this in Catholic teaching was the "Just War Theory" [see Just war theory - Wikipedia }.

    Gotta go-- sorry to stop here.
     
  3. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    I don't buy this because we can't always tell what's in peoples' hearts, therefore I refuse to judge.

    Gotta go.
     
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  4. UpperLimits

    UpperLimits Active Member

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    Agreed. Jesus is Not a pacifist. His fighting with angelic armies at Armageddon kinda proves my point. And as we are to be like Him, we should follow His example and be ready to bear the sword when required.

    And?

    Oki doki. We'll let it ride for now....

    Depends on the circumstances. I can guarantee you that if some delinquent was attempting to rape my wife, my love for my spouse would force me to "lovingly demonstrate" the effectiveness of the toe of my boot to a little more than just his backside.

    So say the Jehovah's Witnesses... But not worth debating at this juncture.

    Nevertheless, I've always wondered how they draw that conclusion out of this text; " These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone." Kinda difficult to be "cast in alive" when it supposedly means that you're been annihilated.

    Besides, if you keep reading, after a thousand years, Satan gets cast into the lake of fire too, where he meets up with the beast and the false prophet, who are apparently both still in there and enjoying the surroundings....

    No, I didn't say it did. But OTOH, it doesn't preclude it either.
     
  5. UpperLimits

    UpperLimits Active Member

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    I think we finally might have found a point where we can agree! ;)
     
  6. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Bingo! You are right.

    In 1095 C.E., Pope Urban II urged “Christians” to take the Holy Land from the Muslims. Kings, barons, knights, and commoners in all the nations under the control of Urban II responded to his call. According to one medieval historian, there was “hardly a people living according to the law of Christ” that did not rush to support the cause.

    Historian Zoé Oldenbourg said that the majority of crusaders had an “absolute conviction that in taking the cross [they were] enlisting directly in the service of God Himself.” They saw themselves, she says, in the role of “destroying angels falling on the children of the devil.”

    They also believed that “all who died would win the crown of martyrs in heaven,” (Brian Moynahan)

    Perhaps the crusaders were unaware that their enemy believed something similar. According to historian J. M. Roberts in his book the Shorter History of the World, Islamic soldiers, also went into battle with the conviction that they were fighting for God and “that death on the battlefield against the infidel would be followed by entry to paradise” in heaven.

    Both sides were taught that theirs was a just war—approved of and blessed by God. Religious and political leaders nurtured these beliefs and fanned the flames of their subjects’ emotions. And both sides committed unspeakable atrocities.

    Neither were proving true to their own professed beliefs. Neither side were either serving or pleasing God at all.

    “If men could learn from history—what lessons it might teach us! But Passion and Party blind our eyes, and the light which Experience gives is a lantern on the stern which shines only on the waves behind us!”—Samuel Taylor Coleridge.
     
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  7. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Would they participate in bloodshed in a war of any nation......period? Jesus told his disciples to be "no part of this world" so why would any of us fight for man's kingdoms?

    In any unauthorized bloodshed the Israelites were told....

    "And when you spread out your palms,
    I hide my eyes from you.
    Although you offer many prayers,
    I am not listening;
    Your hands are filled with blood."
    (Isaiah 1:15)

    Israel had to have God's sanction before they were given victory in a war.
    God has not sanctioned a war for thousands of years.
     
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  8. siti

    siti Well-Known Member

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    Hang on a minute - I thought we discussing the historical facts of the Crusades not the psychotically-induced imaginings of an imprisoned first century soothsayer. Anyway, if we are imitating the Christ of Revelation, we should not only be prepared to carry the sword but also to bludgeon the enemy to death with an iron rod, trample them to a bloody pulp and then feed their remains to the birds. Nice! And perhaps yet another answer to the question about who was responsible for the carnage of the Crusades. Of course it was six of one and at least half a dozen of the other, but it is sickeningly shocking to see some of the attempts at justification by scripture in this thread. A thousand years has passed and we are still excusing violence on the flimsiest of pretexts. How sad!
     
  9. Augustus

    Augustus the Unreasonable

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    A coup would more likely result from powerful nobles not supporting you, not peasants. Peasants didn't have a heavy cavalry or even good weapons and armour for a start.

    I agree, but not just in a narrow sense.

    Most soldiers were (and are) 'good people' in that they are normal people of their time. The idea that most heinous deeds are carried out by 'bad people' is a myth.

    You could fight for religion, for your tribe/people, out of duty, etc. but people generally believe in their cause. It was survival of the fittest, and people took what they could because what wasn't 'theirs' was a threat or potential threat.
     
  10. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Here is the solution that I find: Jesus gave to John instructions for us as found at Revelation 13:10.
    The setting for Revelation was Not the 1st century, but set for our day or time frame as per Revelation 1:10.
    So, the words found in Revelation are for us today that for anyone who would kill with the sword, he must be killed with the sword. That ' killing sword ' is the executional words from Jesus' mouth, and that ' sword ' is as found located at Revelation 19:14-16; Isaiah 11:3-4.
     
    #70 URAVIP2ME, Sep 22, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2017
  11. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Good point about Not judging because God's judgement is already recorded down in the Bible.
    So, there is No need for us to do the judging. Jesus is the one who 'reads hearts' according to Isaiah 11:3-4.
    Thus, we can read that it is Jesus who does the judging or the separating work as found at Matthew 25:31-33,37.
    No one knows who exactly will be classed as one of the figurative humble 'sheep'-like persons.
     
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  12. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    How does the 1st-century setting compare with Revelation's setting for our day as per Revelation 1:10.
    I find Revelation 13:10 are instructions for our time frame for us.
    Since Revelation was written at the very end of the first century, then I think it could Not apply to the first century.
     
  13. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Jesus had a sword present to show that swords should Not be used according to Matthew 26:52 which I find is in harmony with the instructions found at Revelation 13:10. Since Revelation 1:10 is set for our day it applies to now.

    There is a 'BIG' difference between self defence and going to bear arms in battle. They are Not the same thing!
    That is a whole another subject.
     
  14. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Where does it say Satan is annihilated 'before' being cast into the symbolic lake of fire.
    I find after the 1,000 years Satan is released from the 'abyss' prison (I can't find a verse saying out of the lake...)

    Since the symbolic beast and false prophet already were ( past tense) then Satan joins them last.
    The definition of the lake of fire is defined at Revelation 20:13-14 as: ' second death '.
    Sinner Satan ends up in that ' second death ' according to Revelation 21:8.
    Jesus destroys Satan according to Hebrews 2:14 B.
    Since Satan ends up in ' second death ' so ' second death ' is a fitting term for: destruction.
    Destruction as in the wicked (Satan is wicked) will be 'destroyed forever' as Per Psalms 92:7.

    I find it interesting that in Revelation 20:10 the word ' torture ' is Not used.
    In Bible speak, so to speak, a tormentor (Not torturer) was simply a jailer as per Matthew 18:30; Matthew 18:34.
    So, the torment ( Not torture ) is being jailed in annihilation or in everlasting destruction.
    ' twice dead ' as in No resurrection back to life ever - Jude 1:12 B.
     
  15. MohammadPali

    MohammadPali Active Member

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    Who told you jesus fights satan ? He doesn't fight satan. He fights the anti-christ.
     
  16. UpperLimits

    UpperLimits Active Member

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    You're talking about rantings?

    My statement was made within a context that you've conveniently managed to completely ignore. Granted, there are some things done during the crusades that are completely inexcusable. However, fighting to free others from oppression was not one of them.
     
  17. UpperLimits

    UpperLimits Active Member

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    Defending my spouse (as per the example) would be "to bear arms in battle," not "self defense." In order to be self defense, she would have to be the one to administer said "butt whipping" to an assailant. As long as I have breath, that's not going to happen.
     
  18. UpperLimits

    UpperLimits Active Member

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    I wouldn't get too hung up on this guys theology. I'm not sure exactly what branch of the "Miller Adventist" tree he's coming from, but it's a rather minor perspective in the overall purview of Christianity.
     
  19. UpperLimits

    UpperLimits Active Member

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    Just reading the text as it's written without feeling the need to redefine every word to meet my predefined theological constructions.
     
  20. UpperLimits

    UpperLimits Active Member

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    I think you miss what I was agreeing with. Please note the part of Metis quote that I have hi-lighted.
     
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