Who was the "Us" at Gen 1:26?

[theQuestion]

The angels don't have free will, they are not the image of God, and Jesus wasn't an angel. Where did you get all these things?

EDIT

I read some christian orthodox sites about the angels. According to them, angels have free will and they are images of God. you are right. but jesus isn't an angel.

 

[theQuestion]

The angels are servants. They don't have free will, they are not the image of God, and Jesus wasn't an angel. Where did you get all these things?

EDIT

I read some christian orthodox sites about the angels. According to them, angels have free will and they are images of God. you are right. but jesus isn't an angel.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Churchianity has twisted things so much, those that worship their church- churchoids- literally "Don't know which way is up"!
First, they were chubby little winged babies, then some kind of hybrids (based on the symbolic visions)- but the fact is that they are SPIRIT beings- as God & Christ are- and the actual meaning of the biblical words translated as "angel" mean, let this SINK IN- ONLY - "messenger".
Jesus, John and others were called "angels" (messengers) of God- and Jesus was the very GREATEST of ALL God's messengers!

Mal 3:1- "Behold, I send my messenger to prepare the way before me,
and Jehovah whom you seek will suddenly come to his temple;
the ANGEL of the covenant in whom you delight, behold, he is coming,
says Jehovah of hosts. 2- But who can endure the day of his coming,
and who can stand when he appears?"

Jesus was the very greatest of ALL God's angels, and has now been raised ABOVE them, yet
still LEADS them as the Head Messenger- Archangel:

1 Thess 4:16- For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel,
and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first.

 

[theQuestion]

Sorry but I do not see anything that says angels are God's children. Can you quote a verse that says this. Yes, angels were created by God but if a human carves a wooden puppet that looks like a human , that puppet is not a human and is not the carvers child. The child of a human is a human. The child of a god is a god. angels are not gods.

---------------------------------------------------
Job 38:4- Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?
Tell me, if you have understanding.
5 Who determined its measurements—surely you know!
Or who stretched the line upon it?
6 On what were its bases sunk,
or who laid its cornerstone,
7 when the morning stars sang together,
and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Jesus' genealogy~

Luke 3:38- the son of Enos, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.

 

[theQuestion]

No, back in the early days of the bible it was still well-known that there were lots of gods. For example:

Exodus 15:11 Who is like thee, O Lord, among the gods?
Exodus 20:1 Thou shalt have no other gods before me
Numbers 33:4 upon their gods also the Lord executed judgments.
Judges 11:23-24 So the Lord, the God of Israel, dispossessed the Amorites from before his people Israel; and are you to take possession of them? 24 Will you not possess what Chemosh your god gives you to possess? And all that the Lord our God has dispossessed before us, we will possess.
Psalms 82:1 God has taken his place in the divine council; / in the midst of the gods he holds judgment.
Psalms 95:3 For the Lord is a great god, / and a great King above all gods.​

And that's just a sampling.

There's also the question of just who the 'sons of God' are; are they just the nephilim, or does the word refer to the courtiers at God Central in general?

The idea that there are no other gods appears around the time of the Babylonian captivity.

The idea that there's one God who exists as a Trinity first appears in the 4th century CE.

What next?

------------------------------------------------------
Jehovah made it know those all were IMAGINARY Gods- that's why Jesus referred to Him as the only TRUE God (John 17:3).

 

[theQuestion]

Perhaps it was this group of gods:

God presides in the great assembly. He judges among the gods.
Psalms 82:1

I said, "You are gods, All of you are sons of the Most High. Nevertheless you shall die like men, And fall like one of the rulers."
Psalms 82:6-7

---------------------------------------------
Jehovah was referring to the Judges of Israel as "Gods" as He once called Moses "God"- to pharaoh.
They SPOKE for Him.

God has never become a man.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

---------------------------------------------------
Job 38:4- Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?
Tell me, if you have understanding.
5 Who determined its measurements—surely you know!
Or who stretched the line upon it?
6 On what were its bases sunk,
or who laid its cornerstone,
7 when the morning stars sang together,
and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Jesus' genealogy~

Luke 3:38- the son of Enos, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.

Well it looks like you missed the point again. Mone of what you said says anything about angels being God's children. Please try again.

 

[sooda]

Well it looks like you missed the point again. Mone of what you said says anything about angels being God's children. Please try again.

I have never ever heard it said that angels were God's children. Where does that come from?

 

[blü 2]

------------------------------------------------------
Jehovah made it know those all were IMAGINARY Gods- that's why Jesus referred to Him as the only TRUE God (John 17:3).

Remember that the bible traces the evolution of concepts of God, from the Bronze Age one among many to Biggest one among many, all through the Torah. Not till you get to the time of the Babylonian captivity, say around 500 BCE, is it thought that there are no other gods.

If you're interested in this evolution, you might find >this article< helpful.

Then with Christianity, Paul decides to detribalize God and declares that the Jewish god is for everyone, and that the covenant of circumcision can be by-passed. If you read the covenant, you'll see that his argument is on the one hand specious in Jewish terms, but on the other, the reason why Christianity succeeded among pagans but in general not among Jews. Indeed by about 100 CE, direct antagonism between Jews and Christians can be detected in eg the gospel of John. And Christians have had an active antisemitic streak, with pogroms, deprivation of rights, ghettos, inquisitions and the Spanish inquisition, and so on, right through to the Holocaust, and even today.

Not till the 4th century CE does God become a Trinity. This idea is nowhere present in the bible, but is devised to solve the political dilemma, how to make Jesus, the principle object of Christian worship, into a god, while avoiding taunts, in particular from Jews, that Christians were polytheists like the pagans. The resulting Trinity doctrine not only doesn't make sense, but is said not to make sense, in that it's "a mystery in the strict sense", meaning that it "cannot be known by unaided reason apart from revelation, and cannot be demonstrated by reason after it has been revealed" (the churches' words, not mine).

In the meantime, the Christian God, starting in the 18th century and slowly developing the idea, became opposed to slavery, which is condoned both in the Tanakh and the NT, and from the latter half of the 20th century, particularly in the First World, has become more liberal on divorce, and at the present time is ceding ground on homosexuality.

A church that doesn't say what its parishioners think is right is going to lose parishioners, and that phenomenon, active in Europe from before WW2, is now making itself felt in the US, as articles with titles like "the rise of the nones" will attest, though obviously other factors are at play too.

 

[theQuestion]

Well it looks like you missed the point again. Mone of what you said says anything about angels being God's children. Please try again.

_________________________
I forgot- in churches "sons" mean "Gods"...

 

[theQuestion]

Remember that the bible traces the evolution of concepts of God, from the Bronze Age one among many to Biggest one among many, all through the Torah. Not till you get to the time of the Babylonian captivity, say around 500 BCE, is it thought that there are no other gods.

If you're interested in this evolution, you might find >this article< helpful.

Then with Christianity, Paul decides to detribalize God and declares that the Jewish god is for everyone, and that the covenant of circumcision can be by-passed. If you read the covenant, you'll see that his argument is on the one hand specious in Jewish terms, but on the other, the reason why Christianity succeeded among pagans but in general not among Jews. Indeed by about 100 CE, direct antagonism between Jews and Christians can be detected in eg the gospel of John. And Christians have had an active antisemitic streak, with pogroms, deprivation of rights, ghettos, inquisitions and the Spanish inquisition, and so on, right through to the Holocaust, and even today.

Not till the 4th century CE does God become a Trinity. This idea is nowhere present in the bible, but is devised to solve the political dilemma, how to make Jesus, the principle object of Christian worship, into a god, while avoiding taunts, in particular from Jews, that Christians were polytheists like the pagans. The resulting Trinity doctrine not only doesn't make sense, but is said not to make sense, in that it's "a mystery in the strict sense", meaning that it "cannot be known by unaided reason apart from revelation, and cannot be demonstrated by reason after it has been revealed" (the churches' words, not mine).

In the meantime, the Christian God, starting in the 18th century and slowly developing the idea, became opposed to slavery, which is condoned both in the Tanakh and the NT, and from the latter half of the 20th century, particularly in the First World, has become more liberal on divorce, and at the present time is ceding ground on homosexuality.

A church that doesn't say what its parishioners think is right is going to lose parishioners, and that phenomenon, active in Europe from before WW2, is now making itself felt in the US, as articles with titles like "the rise of the nones" will attest, though obviously other factors are at play too.

------------------------
Curious mixture of Truth and Fiction.
You an atheist, then, Blu?

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

I have never ever heard it said that angels were God's children. Where does that come from?

Let's pretend I never heard it. So maybe you can tell me where it comes from. You will be doing me a big favor.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

_________________________
I forgot- in churches "sons" mean "Gods"...

I truly never heard that and I doubt there are many churches where that is true. Maybe in yours, but that does not make it correct.

 

[sooda]

Let's pretend I never heard it. So maybe you can tell me where it comes from. You will be doing me a big favor.

I have NO clue where is comes from.

 

[blü 2]

------------------------
Curious mixture of Truth and Fiction.

Which parts of the bible do you say are fiction? I'm happy to compare notes.

You an atheist, then, Blu?

I figure to be an atheist I'd have to know what a real god is (as distinct from imaginary gods, which are anything you like); and since I don't, and no one will tell me, I'm merely someone who thinks no test can distinguish the supernatural from the imaginary.

But I respect history properly done. And I'm happy for people to believe as they think best. And to discuss and debate when they post on the debate boards here.

 

[theQuestion]

Which parts of the bible do you say are fiction?

---------------------------------------

You're putting words my mouth.
YOU are the one that implies that- aren't you?

 

[sojourner]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Churchianity has twisted things so much, those that worship their church- churchoids- literally "Don't know which way is up"!
First, they were chubby little winged babies, then some kind of hybrids (based on the symbolic visions)- but the fact is that they are SPIRIT beings- as God & Christ are- and the actual meaning of the biblical words translated as "angel" mean, let this SINK IN- ONLY - "messenger".
Jesus, John and others were called "angels" (messengers) of God- and Jesus was the very GREATEST of ALL God's messengers!

Mal 3:1- "Behold, I send my messenger to prepare the way before me,
and Jehovah whom you seek will suddenly come to his temple;
the ANGEL of the covenant in whom you delight, behold, he is coming,
says Jehovah of hosts. 2- But who can endure the day of his coming,
and who can stand when he appears?"

Jesus was the very greatest of ALL God's angels, and has now been raised ABOVE them, yet
still LEADS them as the Head Messenger- Archangel:

1 Thess 4:16- For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel,
and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first.

Well, I’ll give you this: it’s certainly neither orthodox nor theologically solid.

 

[blü 2]

---------------------------------------

You're putting words my mouth.
YOU are the one that implies that- aren't you?

Of course. The bible is full of fictions. Or is it your view that there was a real moment in history when Pharaoh's magicians turned the whole of the Nile into real blood, and back?

I don't accept miracle stories either. In my book, if Elijah can raised the Zarephath woman’s son (1 Kings 17:17+) and Elisha can raise the Shunammite woman’s son (2 Kings 4:32+), and the man whose dead body touched Elisha’s bones can be resurrected (2 Kings 13:21) and if Jesus can raise the Nain widow’s son (Luke 7:12+) and Lazarus (John 11:41-44), and himself be raised, and if Peter can raise Tabitha / Dorcas (Acts 9:36-40), and if Matthew's faithful dead can roam the streets of Jerusalem (Matthew 27:52-53) then plainly Osiris, and Dionysios and Herakles, can die, be raised, and become gods, and Asklepios can raise Lykourgos, Kapaneos and Tyndareos from the dead, and Glaukos, Hippolytos, Orion and Asklepios himself can be raised. It's a given that in each case the deceased had undergone irreversible cessation of life functions of course, something that can only be kind guesswork at this distance.

All or none. Does that seem fair to you?

 

[theQuestion]

Of course. The bible is full of fictions. Or is it your view that there was a real moment in history when Pharaoh's magicians turned the whole of the Nile into real blood, and back?

I don't accept miracle stories either. In my book, if Elijah can raised the Zarephath woman’s son (1 Kings 17:17+) and Elisha can raise the Shunammite woman’s son (2 Kings 4:32+), and the man whose dead body touched Elisha’s bones can be resurrected (2 Kings 13:21) and if Jesus can raise the Nain widow’s son (Luke 7:12+) and Lazarus (John 11:41-44), and himself be raised, and if Peter can raise Tabitha / Dorcas (Acts 9:36-40), and if Matthew's faithful dead can roam the streets of Jerusalem (Matthew 27:52-53) then plainly Osiris, and Dionysios and Herakles, can die, be raised, and become gods, and Asklepios can raise Lykourgos, Kapaneos and Tyndareos from the dead, and Glaukos, Hippolytos, Orion and Asklepios himself can be raised. It's a given that in each case the deceased had undergone irreversible cessation of life functions of course, something that can only be kind guesswork at this distance.

All or none. Does that seem fair to you?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not at all.
Egyptian religion has NO elements of fact or truth in it.
Matthew only describes dead bodies being hurled out of their graves.

Is this form YOUR imagination- or some wacky book?

 

[blü 2]

Not at all.

Not at all fair that the Greek stories should be true and yours all folktale?

Or not fair but in your favor?

Egyptian religion has NO elements of fact or truth in it.

And you know that how?

Matthew only describes dead bodies being hurled out of their graves.

No, he says something quite different:
[---]
27:51And behold, the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom; and the earth shook, and the rocks were split;

καὶ ἰδοὺ τὸ καταπέτασμα τοῦ ναοῦ ἐσχίσθη ἀπ᾽ ἄνωθεν ἕως κάτω εἰς δύο καὶ ἡ γῆ ἐσείσθη καὶ αἱ πέτραι ἐσχίσθησαν
52 the tombs also were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised,

καὶ ἐξελθόντες ἐκ τῶν μνημείων μετὰ τὴν ἔγερσιν αὐτοῦ εἰσῆλθον εἰς τὴν ἁγίαν πόλιν καὶ ἐνεφανίσθησαν πολλοῖς
53 and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

They, being the bodies of the saints, went into Jerusalem and appeared to many. It's your text, let's stick to the words.

And you forgot to tell me whether you believe that Pharaoh's magicians turning the Nile into real blood is an event in history, or just a story. Which?

Is this form YOUR imagination- or some wacky book?

Pardon? What wacky form? Your clarification, please.

 

[theQuestion]

27:51And behold, the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom; and the earth shook, and the rocks were split;
καὶ ἰδοὺ τὸ καταπέτασμα τοῦ ναοῦ ἐσχίσθη ἀπ᾽ ἄνωθεν ἕως κάτω εἰς δύο καὶ ἡ γῆ ἐσείσθη καὶ αἱ πέτραι ἐσχίσθησαν
52 the tombs also were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised,
καὶ ἐξελθόντες ἐκ τῶν μνημείων μετὰ τὴν ἔγερσιν αὐτοῦ εἰσῆλθον εἰς τὴν ἁγίαν πόλιν καὶ ἐνεφανίσθησαν πολλοῖς
53 and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

-------------------------------------
One question at a time, please!
Churchianity as a whole loves these verses, because they can say "See! Immortal Souls!"
But alas, there's more here 'than meets the eye'!

Check these out, for example~
Was There a Resurrection? — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY
What about Matthew 27:52 and 53?