Who was Ravidass?

[ronki23]

What is the difference between believing Ravidass was a Guru as opposed to being a Bhagat?

 

[ameyAtmA]

Namaste

What kind of a question is this?

It looks like the word "belief" and "believing" is a favorite on RF.

Where is there any room for belief if there is history telling you that

Saint Ravidas was

1. A VaishNav, a devotee of VishNu => a "bhagat"
2. Had composed many nice bhajans to the Lord
3. Was an inspiration and Guru of Meerabai. who was a devotee of Shri KRshNa (pUrNAvatAr of VishNu)
4. Had obvious followers who built him a samadhi and go there to pay respects
5. Was adopted by the Sikhs as a Guru, they wanted to follow in his footsteps.

Sikhism worships the same omniscient omnipresent VishNu who is the same omniscient omnipresent Shiva.

So I just do not understand where "believing" comes into picture for a historical person Saint Ravidas a.k.a. Raidas.

 

[Aupmanyav]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ravidas

 

[ronki23]

Namaste

What kind of a question is this?

It looks like the word "belief" and "believing" is a favorite on RF.

Where is there any room for belief if there is history telling you that

Saint Ravidas was

1. A VaishNav, a devotee of VishNu => a "bhagat"
2. Had composed many nice bhajans to the Lord
3. Was an inspiration and Guru of Meerabai. who was a devotee of Shri KRshNa (pUrNAvatAr of VishNu)
4. Had obvious followers who built him a samadhi and go there to pay respects
5. Was adopted by the Sikhs as a Guru, they wanted to follow in his footsteps.

Sikhism worships the same omniscient omnipresent VishNu who is the same omniscient omnipresent Shiva.

So I just do not understand where "believing" comes into picture for a historical person Saint Ravidas a.k.a. Raidas.

If Ravidass was a Hindu / not Sikh then why do some people call Ravidassi 'Sikhs' and the Temples a 'Gurdwara' ?

Please read Guru Granth Sahib regarding deities

“He created Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva, who act according to His Will” (Guru Granth Sahib, 948).

“The performance of countless millions of other devotions is not even equal to one devotion to the Name of God” (Guru Granth Sahib, 1163). “Those who serve Shiva and Brahma cannot find the limits of God” (Guru Granth Sahib, 516).

'The ones who serve any other instead of God cannot attain salvation. Salvation is granted only by God. “Everyone must serve the One Lord, who created Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva. O Nanak, the One True Lord is permanent and stable. He does not die, and He is not born” '(Guru Granth Sahib, 1130).

"By the order of God, Brahma obtained a body. By the order of God, Shiva was born. By the order of God, Vishnu was born. Everything is created by God. God, who made Shiva a yogi. God, who gave Brahma the kingdom of Vedas. God, who has shaped the entire universe. Is the one we salute. They consider that Shiva is God. They are unaware of the Supreme Primal Lord." (Benti Chaupee Sahib).

 

[ameyAtmA]

Can't he be both Hindu and Sikh?

You have to cross the saguN versus nirguN (either-or) bridge to understand the mystic devotional experience of saguNa-nirguNa.

Guru NAnak, Ravidas all belong to Sanatan Dharma. Their reformative text is to enable people to focus on the NirguNa in different ways. Their followings, i.e. "pantha" were named as well-defined religions. Their sAdhanA, disipline and rules formulated into the Sikh, Ravidasi and other movements.

While those texts say "He" created BramhA VishNu Mahesh, our understanding is that "HE"

became/
becomes/
IS/
plays the roles of

BramhA VishNu Mahesh. (Our texts also say VishNu created BramhA , then it goes in circles - that is how time is - circular)

The Gurus write or teach in ways tailored to a) their personal experience b) the understanding of the group present at their time.

From the Wiki page linked in the post above

The songs of Ravidas discuss Nirguna-Saguna themes, as well as ideas that are at the foundation of Nath Yoga philosophy of Hinduism.[27] He frequently mentions the term Sahaj, a mystical state where there is a union of the truths of the many and the one.[27]

Raidas says, what shall I sing?
Singing, singing I am defeated.
How long shall I consider and proclaim:
absorb the self into the Self?

This experience is such,
that it defies all description.
I have met the Lord,
Who can cause me harm?

Hari in everything, everything in Hari –
For him who knows Hari and the sense of self,
no other testimony is needed:
the knower is absorbed.

— Ravidas, Translated by Winand Callewaert and Peter Friedlander[27]

...

Discussion (charchA) between Ravidas and Kabir

Monistic Brahman or Anthropomorphic God?
Multiple manuscripts found in Rajasthan and Uttar Pradesh, dated to be from the 18th and 19th centuries, contain a theosophical debate between Kabir and Ravidas on the nature of the Absolute, more specifically whether the Brahman (Ultimate Reality, Eternal Truth) is monistic Oneness or a separate anthropomorphic incarnate.[31] Kabir argues for the former. Ravidas, in contrast, argues from the latter premise to the effect that both are one.[31] In these manuscripts, Kabir initially prevails, Ravidas accepts that Brahman is monistic, but till the end Kabir didn't accept worshipping a divine avatar (sagun conception).[31]

Ravidassia religion[edit]
The difference between the Ravidassia religion and Sikhism, as described by a post made by Shri Guru Ravidass Temple in Ontario is as follows:

We, as Ravidassias have different traditions. We are not Sikhs. Even though, we give utmost respect to 10 gurus and Guru Granth Sahib, Guru Ravidass Ji is our supreme. There is no command for us to follow the declaration that there is no Guru after Guru Granth Sahib. We respect Guru Granth Sahib because it has our guru Ji's teachings and teachings of other religious figures who have spoken against caste system, spread the message of NAAM and equality. As per our traditions, we give utmost respect to contemporary gurus also who are carrying forward the message of Guru Ravidass Ji.[36]

Ravidassia religion is a spin-off religion from Sikhism, formed in the 21st century, by the followers of Ravidass's teachings.
...
The Ravidassia religion compiled a new holy book, Amritbani Guru Ravidass Ji. Based entirely on the writings and teaching of Ravidas, it contains 240 hymns. Sant Niranjan Dass is the head of Dera Sachkhand Ballan.[37]

This shows it is hard to worship the nirguN nirAkAr and they end up making their Guru their Deity.


Hindu mystic poet , devotee of Shri KRshNa , Meerabai asked Ravidas to be her Guru , and he asked her to continue writing poetry to KRshNa.

Guru Ravidas and Bhagtani Meera Bai[edit]
There is a small chhatri (umbrella) in front of Meera's temple in Chittorgarh district of Rajasthan which bears Ravidas' engraved foot print.[41] Legends link him as the guru of Meera, another major Bhakti movement poet.[27]

To me they are all one dharma. Just followings of various Gurus who each had their own experience of Bramh'

SanAtan Dharma is the holistic Mother of all these religions, movements, teachings, philosophies, thoughts...

 

[ameyAtmA]

It is like asking "Do you worship the Bramh in Bhagvad Geeta Chapter 13 or 15? 12 or 2? 11 or 18? 3 or 5? 2 or 6?"

 

[Aupmanyav]

If Ravidass was a Hindu / not Sikh then why do some people call Ravidassi 'Sikhs' and the Temples a 'Gurdwara'?

At one time and for many, even today, there is no difference between Sikhism and Hinduism. Many Hindu families have Sikh sons, my grocer is one such. Sindhis to not have the tradition to raise sons as Sikhs but many are ardent followers of Guru Nanak. Those Hindus who have gurus, also have gurudwaras, which only means the 'residence of the Guru'. What are Punjabi 'deras', people have their gurus there, like the Radhasoamis? Radhasoamis have Hindu and Sikh followers.