Who was Krishna in your tradition?

[Dawnofhope]

I ask for your patience and forgiveness of my brethren and their responses to you.
When your traditions are constantly undermined, when you're constantly prostelyzed to (through brute force and Trojan Horse like outwardly sweetness and cries of friendship) your back tends to be constantly against the wall. You will react and you will defend yourself from any perceived threat.
Even within my own family this has happened. My uncles and aunts were blackmailed into Catholicism, my grandfather dismayed at having to betray his values and traditions for the sake of giving his children a good future. A dishonour upon his name.

I walk between both the Dharmic and Abrahamic circles in my day to day life. Most on both sides are decent people who just want to mind their own business. But the scars are hard to lose and harder to ignore.
Many from all sides preach tolerance and harmony. There are those who would use such tolerance as a weapon against us "pagans."
On this board the scepticism and reactions may seem unfair, but they are not without a history.

Hi @SomeRandom , I see you are from Australia. I am from New Zealand. Greetings from across the ditch.

I really appreciate your perspective here as you appear a voice for moderation and fairness. History is a powerful determinant as with what has happened with the Aboriganals in Australia and the Maori in New Zealand.

Vinayaki and I have been talking to each other a great deal since about February last year and I've had enough exchanges with Aup to realise he is very knowledgeable and insightful once he stops ranting and raving about the Abrahamic Faiths being a plaque upon the earth.

I'm enjoying the conversation about Krishna and Hinduism and like Hindus too much to let any reponses here dampen my enthusiasm.

I was intrigued by your mention of the words 'Sanatana Dharma' on another thread and was considering exploring this further in another thread.

It doesn't bother me whether you are a Hindu, Christian, pagan or atheism btw. What dieties are important to you?

I'm just interested and excited to be learning more about Hinduism as we all should be. There's no trojan horse in armoury the last time I checked.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Put the rainbow separated by black lines in a white existence and that's God.

What do you see are the black lines?

I am thinking lines we used ro seperate the colours.

Regards Tony

 

[Dawnofhope]

Sneaky style proselytising is rarely derogatory. However, here is what Abdul Baha had to say about us, speaking of derogatory. This is from the top, not from an adherent.

"On the other hand, many exist as human beings who are adorers end worshippers of stone and clay, that is, the mineral, which is the lowest of beings. Consider how base and low are they when their object of worship is the basest of things, such as stone, clay and mineral!"

Clearly he was no fan of Hinduism, and idol worship in particular. Not did he have nay actual understanding of it.

None of the quote can be reliably authenticated as something Abdu'l-Baha said. It is from 'pilgrim's notes' and has no authority in Baha'i writings.

Just as you can pick and choose the positive quotes, so too can others find the nasty ones. So who knows, really?

The question remains, "Why start the thread?"

To learn more about Krishna and Hinduism from talking Hindus. I've been talking with you for a while and more recently Marcion. I thought I'd take it to the next level.

 

[Drew Henefer]

Hi Drew and welcome to religious forum. I like you inclusive and universalist leanings. I haven't heard too much of that from some of the other Jews here. Would you elaborate on how it relates to your own faith and journey please (only if you're comfortable).

God - human - natural world - time-loop until enlightenment, until dissolved in on Himself into a black hole out of a black hole. This world represents His living memory, a sea of Ego in which Him and all His egos devolve into more perfect beings, playing games with each other to establish power and dissolve ignorance. I believe we are all in time loops, maybe like 21 lives which establishes our patterns to dissolve into our own God universes. I believe in a string theory in which everything is connected in established meaning (the Bible is a perfect testament that teaches this through God being God and being far greater than the perceived experience) (God can lie cheat and steal, and He's scared for you?) Think this: He thinks up Adam and Eve, starts them in a time loop after maturity, lets them have a baby, starts a time loop at conception, and so on, resetting everyone's universes at death to conception until everyone is perfect, and where ever you put a person, they'll adapt to the energy that incorporates that place. (Jesus and Mary is the best way to help a human achieve enlightenment.) Deja-vu represents impassable moments in your journey. Stories will change to help with each journey and life will become more dimensional?

 

[Drew Henefer]

What do you see are the black lines?

I am thinking lines we used ro seperate the colours.

Regards Tony

Fear

 

[Vinayaka]

None of the quote can be reliably authenticated as something Abdu'l-Baha said. It is from 'pilgrim's notes' and has no authority in Baha'i writings.

To learn more about Krishna and Hinduism from talking Hindus. I've been talking with you for a while and more recently Marcion. I thought I'd take it to the next level.

Firstly, just because something isn't authenticated by Baha'i doesn't mean it didn't happen. In fact, why would Bahais authenticate stuff like that? It certainly wouldn't look good on them. All that sort of stuff reads logically to me, but then I'm neutral, not biased. Not saying it's for sure, but certainly that it's possible. Covenent Breakers often became because they had the guts to point out the negatives. So I don't know. With the Bahai I've talked to here and elsewhere, it seems that there is an absolute defensive denial of anything negative. It's the infallibility thing I think. Not us, not us.

You still didn't answer why you want to study Krishna. Neither myself nor Marcion is a Vaishnavite. Why not just go to the ISKCON temple, and sit down and have a discussion? I'm sure someone there would be more than happy to explain it to you. They might even beseech His presence for you, and you could enjoy that. Or not, of course.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Put the rainbow separated by black lines in a white existence and that's God.

What do you see are are the black lines

Fear

You would then see fear also being part of God?

Another way to ask would be, do you see the rainbow painting, on the white canvas as God?

Regards Tony

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Well, to be fair, the anti-Abrahamic rhetoric did not exactly just fall from the sky now did it?

2. As regards your study of the Hindu religion: The origins of this and many other religions that abound in India are not quite known to us, and even the Orientalists and the students of religion are not in complete accord about the results of their investigations in that field. The Bahá'í writings also do not refer specifically to any of these forms of religion current in India. So, the Guardian feels it impossible to give you any definite and detailed information on that subject. He would urge you, however, to carry on your studies in that field, although its immensity is well-nigh bewildering, with the view of bringing the Message to the Hindus. The task of converting this section of the Indian population is a most vital obligation, although the Guardian is fully aware of the many difficulties that it presents. Nevertheless the friends should do their best to make as many converts among the Hindus as they possibly can.

(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi - 17 April 1936)

So what are we to think of all this busy studying of other faiths other than a way to make conversion to the Bahai faith easier?

WOW!

 

[Drew Henefer]

You would then see fear also being part of God?

Another way to ask would be, do you see the rainbow painting, on the white canvas as God?

Regards Tony

Yes

 

[SomeRandom]

Hi @SomeRandom , I see you are from Australia. I am from New Zealand. Greetings from across the ditch.

I really appreciate your perspective here as you appear a voice for moderation and fairness. History is a powerful determinant as with what has happened with the Aboriganals in Australia and the Maori in New Zealand.

Vinayaki and I have been talking to each other a great deal since about February last year and I've had enough exchanges with Aup to realise he is very knowledgeable and insightful once he stops ranting and raving about the Abrahamic Faiths being a plaque upon the earth.

I'm enjoying the conversation about Krishna and Hinduism and like Hindus too much to let any reponses here dampen my enthusiasm.

I was intrigued by your mention of the words 'Sanatana Dharma' on another thread and was considering exploring this further in another thread.

It doesn't bother me whether you are a Hindu, Christian, pagan or atheism btw. What dieties are important to you?

I'm just interested and excited to be learning more about Hinduism as we all should be. There's no trojan horse in armoury the last time I checked.

Ahh a Kiwi. I have family in Auckland. Beautiful place filled with thrill seekers.

Sanatha Dharma or Eternal Dharma is the native name for Hinduism. Hinduism is a foreign word really. One given by Christian conquerors. It's more of a colloquialism at this point.

Grudges die hard, time doesn't heal nor does it allow us to forget. No matter what conventional wisdom might say.

We preach tolerance and it is used to try to destroy us. So what other incentives are there to continue to preach such a message? An arguably naive message.

Within one generation my family's traditions were almost wiped clean until a third option was given. That is rather disconcerting. But life moves on I suppose.

I have not met you so I can't speak to your intentions. Perhaps you are sincere, perhaps you are not.
Still the way I see things, I can fight the battles of my ancestors (living and dead) for the rest of my life or live my own life my way.

Labels are problematic. I am growing more sympathetic to the idea that religions are not needed.

The deities important to me are Ma Kali and her incarnations or forms whatever.

 

[Vinayaka]

An oft quoted (by Bahais) quote of Mahatma Gandhi's on the Bahai faith is "The Baha'i faith is a solace to mankind."

What isn't mentioned is the context of the quote. Gandhi was a politician, and the quote was on the occasion of the Baha'i centenary celebration of the founding of the faith, in 1944. Gandhi was invited as a politician to the function, and as all politicians do, they praise the group that invites them. It's just normal behaviour not some exceptional recognition, as we are led to believe. I've witnessed this first hand, and it's been discussed before, here. Just the other day we went to a Tibetan Bazaar hosted by a local Buddhist Society. Both the mayor of my city and the province's Education Minister were there. They both spoke, and sang high praise about Buddhism adding to the multicultural nature of our city. Did they really mean it? Are they actually that fond of Buddhism? Maybe. maybe not.

So this one quote of Gandhi's has been taken and presented as great praise for the Baha'i faith, and totally out of context. Gandhi would have high praise for his Muslim antagonists as well. He was a politician, after all. Far more people have heard of Gandhi than have ever heard of Baha'u'llah.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Firstly, just because something isn't authenticated by Baha'i doesn't mean it didn't happen. In fact, why would Bahais authenticate stuff like that? It certainly wouldn't look good on them. All that sort of stuff reads logically to me, but then I'm neutral, not biased. Not saying it's for sure, but certainly that it's possible. Covenent Breakers often became because they had the guts to point out the negatives. So I don't know. With the Bahai I've talked to here and elsewhere, it seems that there is an absolute defensive denial of anything negative. It's the infallibility thing I think. Not us, not us.

Maybe its what Abdu'l-Baha said, maybe it isn't. Pilgrim's notes are unrelaible. Someone goes overseas and meets Abdu'l-Baha. They go back home and write what they thought he said. Some will acturately reflect what he said. Others won't at all and will add their own thoughts and impressions. So pilgrims notes are not selected on the basis of whether they look good or not. None of them are considered reliable and are rightly excluded as being part of our writings.

If you want something authentic from our writings check this out from a tablet written by Baha'u'llah in response to a Zoroastrian scholar:

The Tabernacle of Unity | Bahá’í Reference Library

Yet another question: “According to the teachings of the Mahábád and Hindu religions, should a person of whatever faith or nation, of whatever colour, appearance, character or condition, be disposed to associate with you, ye should show forth kindness and treat him as a brother. But in other religions this is not so: their followers ill-treat and oppress the adherents of other faiths, consider their persecution as an act of worship, and regard their kindred and their possessions as lawful unto themselves. Which approach is acceptable in the sight of God?”

2.34 The former statement hath ever been and will continue to be true. It is not permissible to contend with anyone, nor is it acceptable in the sight of God to ill-treat or oppress any soul. Time and again have these sublime words streamed from the Pen of the Most High, blessed and exalted be He: “O ye children of men! The fundamental purpose animating the Faith of God and His Religion is to safeguard the interests and promote the unity of the human race, and to foster the spirit of love and fellowship amongst men. Suffer it not to become a source of dissension and discord, of hate and enmity”. This subject hath already been set forth and explained in various Tablets.

There are another 10 - 15 paragraphs in the tablet that relate to Hinduism either directly.

You still didn't answer why you want to study Krishna. Neither myself nor Marcion is a Vaishnavite. Why not just go to the ISKCON temple, and sit down and have a discussion? I'm sure someone there would be more than happy to explain it to you. They might even beseech His presence for you, and you could enjoy that. Or not, of course.

I've been to the ISKCON centre recently and talked to my friend. I'll probably see him again on the street soon and he'll give me another bag of nuts!

You and Marcion are not Vaishnavite of course and seem to either know little about Krishna or don't want to discuss Him openly. What's the problem with talking to other Hindus who do want to discuss Him?

 

[Vinayaka]

@ Adrian
The Bahai library preamble speaks highly of Pilgrim's notes.

I do hope more Vaishnavas join the discourse with you. I'm not particularly optimistic though.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

You and Marcion are not Vaishnavite of course and seem to either know little about Krishna or don't want to discuss Him openly. What's the problem with talking to other Hindus who do want to discuss Him?

Adrian, I do have more respect in your openness; and, I also think youre shortsighted on cultural sensitivity and direct empathy of other cultural views. If you cant worship idols, jump up and down with Hindus, and worship with the rest of them, regardless the questions and interaction, unless you have another approach,you. wont. get it.

Im part Cherokee on my mothers side, blackfoot, fathers side, and african american both sides.

My mother has always loved native americans and weve gone to many POW WOWs, some hoasted on holidays like Forth of July in the States. We went up the mountains to a all day event where all the Native American recognized tribes spoke with tourists about their culture. They never discused their practice just part of their culture and stuff you can pick up onine or in books.

Everyone is saying they are X% native american these days. They feel since they are 1. have the same blood-as so they say-2. are all human 3. same country and 4-have native american friends (etc) they wonder, too, why wont NA talk about their religion with them. WE AER NATIVE AMERIACN TO they say. My mother said the same thing. I almost got caught up in it, until this is what I was told by one chief paraphrased:

I dont know why you all want to live as a native american in our reservations. (Are culture is sacred to us) and we dont give out our practices to anyone unless they were raised here.

(He went on to say), in order to "qualify" as a native american (which the word isnt appropriate.) is to get an geneology test. If the person has X% of native blood from the mothers side, they are (techniaclly) native american. But I dont know why you all want to be like us. We live in rundown housing.

.....We're only outhere because we need to to make money for our family and tribe. The government only gives us X money but unless we say we want to be recognized, we have to fend for the rest- we arent americans.

Heres a short link: Seeking Native American Spirituality and Traditional Religion: Read This First!

A lot of people dont share their culture and their beliefs (even with me!) because they feel their personal practices will be taken advantage of. When you ask questions to compare them to Bahai faith and conclude (and even talk for Hindu on what they should know and believe) it becomes an insult. So, like native americans, they may give you things here and there but even visiting a temple, there is a sense of boundary you must have when wanting information to learn not to compare with your faith.

It doesnt read as if you want to learn something new. It reads as if what you learn wil confirm and maybe support what you already believe. Its like trying to learn a new language by first translating it in your own language then reproducing it in the target language. Going to multicultural meetings to "translate" Krishna beliefs into yours by using your criteria is counteracting the intent of wanting t learn.

You must drop bahai at the door, relax, have tea, and literally converse in a matter that youre not saying "I know what you know lets talk" but more, accept and say, "I do not know nor believe what you do, and I accept whatever information you give me I will not press for more." Letting the host direct the conversation that youre asking information for.

But the reason of the thread literally does not seem like you want to learn Hinduism. Theyve told you that to know it, you have to practice, drop bahai, and basically act like a child because you dont know anything. (Bluntly paraprhasing)

Maybe it will make sense if you dont use bahai as criteria of understanding another persons language and cultural nusances.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

You would then see fear also being part of God?

Another way to ask would be, do you see the rainbow painting, on the white canvas as God?

Regards Tony

Yes

Thank you, that is interesting.

Regards Tony

 

[Dawnofhope]

Ahh a Kiwi. I have family in Auckland. Beautiful place filled with thrill seekers.

Sanatha Dharma or Eternal Dharma is the native name for Hinduism. Hinduism is a foreign word really. One given by Christian conquerors. It's more of a colloquialism at this point.

Grudges die hard, time doesn't heal nor does it allow us to forget. No matter what conventional wisdom might say.

We preach tolerance and it is used to try to destroy us. So what other incentives are there to continue to preach such a message? An arguably naive message.

Within one generation my family's traditions were almost wiped clean until a third option was given. That is rather disconcerting. But life moves on I suppose.

I have not met you so I can't speak to your intentions. Perhaps you are sincere, perhaps you are not.
Still the way I see things, I can fight the battles of my ancestors (living and dead) for the rest of my life or live my own life my way.

Labels are problematic. I am growing more sympathetic to the idea that religions are not needed.

The deities important to me are Ma Kali and her incarnations or forms whatever.

I'm from Otago, the deep south. I have made it up to Auckland a couple of times this year.

I have seen people defined by their past in ways that are not helpful and ways that can enable better living. In some ways we can choose to be a victim of a troubled past or find a way to transcend it. If our faith enables us to reflect the nobility of the human spirit then it does not matter how people feel about us.

If religion becomes a negative force in life that leads to estrangement and hatred between people then better to be without it. In both our countries there is growing disillusionment with organised religion and many peoples are leaving traditional religions and choosing no religion or faith at all. It is not hard to understand why.

OTOH if we are essentially spiritual beings and not just part this material realm then finding a path becomes important.

We do not know each other, that is true. You don't know my motive as I don't know yours. The problem is when we assign malice and alterior motive when none is intended.

This thread is about Krishna and who He is. Its not about the purity of my heart, my motive and imperfections. If we start looking at each other in a negative way and assume the worst its just as bad as niavely trusting everyone we have contact with.

I'm presuming your avatar is Maa Kali?

Is this wikipedia article any good?

Kali - Wikipedia

 

[Dawnofhope]

@ Adrian
The Bahai library preamble speaks highly of Pilgrim's notes.

I do hope more Vaishnavas join the discourse with you. I'm not particularly optimistic though.

Its been mostly positive so far. It is much more satisfying to be studying the main religions on RF than to start threads about the Baha'i Faith.

I like it when those who are not Baha'is start threads about the Baha'i Faith. It enables much better and more meaningful conversations.

In regards pilgrims notes Abdu'l-Baha in a tablet wrote:

"Thou has written concerning the pilgrims and pilgrims' notes. Any narrative that is not authenticated by a Text should not be trusted. Narratives, even if true, cause confusion. For the people of Bahá, the Text, and only the Text, is authentic."

Pilgrims' Notes

 

[Vinayaka]

Its been mostly positive so far. It is much more satisfying to be studying the main religions on RF than to start threads about the Baha'i Faith.
I like it when those who are not Baha'is start threads about the Baha'i Faith. It enables much better and more meaningful conversations.

Have any non-Baha'i started threads on Baha'i?

Many threads get derailed into Baha'i threads soon enough.

 

[paarsurrey]

Maybe its what Abdu'l-Baha said, maybe it isn't. Pilgrim's notes are unrelaible. Someone goes overseas and meets Abdu'l-Baha. They go back home and write what they thought he said. Some will acturately reflect what he said. Others won't at all and will add their own thoughts and impressions. So pilgrims notes are not selected on the basis of whether they look good or not. None of them are considered reliable and are rightly excluded as being part of our writings.

If you want something authentic from our writings check this out from a tablet written by Baha'u'llah in response to a Zoroastrian scholar:

The Tabernacle of Unity | Bahá’í Reference Library

Yet another question: “According to the teachings of the Mahábád and Hindu religions, should a person of whatever faith or nation, of whatever colour, appearance, character or condition, be disposed to associate with you, ye should show forth kindness and treat him as a brother. But in other religions this is not so: their followers ill-treat and oppress the adherents of other faiths, consider their persecution as an act of worship, and regard their kindred and their possessions as lawful unto themselves. Which approach is acceptable in the sight of God?”

2.34 The former statement hath ever been and will continue to be true. It is not permissible to contend with anyone, nor is it acceptable in the sight of God to ill-treat or oppress any soul. Time and again have these sublime words streamed from the Pen of the Most High, blessed and exalted be He: “O ye children of men! The fundamental purpose animating the Faith of God and His Religion is to safeguard the interests and promote the unity of the human race, and to foster the spirit of love and fellowship amongst men. Suffer it not to become a source of dissension and discord, of hate and enmity”. This subject hath already been set forth and explained in various Tablets.

There are another 10 - 15 paragraphs in the tablet that relate to Hinduism either directly.



I've been to the ISKCON centre recently and talked to my friend. I'll probably see him again on the street soon and he'll give me another bag of nuts!

You and Marcion are not Vaishnavite of course and seem to either know little about Krishna or don't want to discuss Him openly. What's the problem with talking to other Hindus who do want to discuss Him?

"Pilgrim's notes are unrelaible. Someone goes overseas and meets Abdu'l-Baha. They go back home and write what they thought he said. Some will acturately reflect what he said. Others won't at all and will add their own thoughts and impressions. So pilgrims notes are not selected on the basis of whether they look good or not. None of them are considered reliable and are rightly excluded as being part of our writings." Unquote.

It is for this reason that I will start study of Bahaullah from Kitab-i-Aqdas, "The Most Holy Book" of him, for both claims and reasons given by him.

Regards

 

[ameyAtmA]

So who IS Krishna?
Correction: IS , not WAS. Who IS KRshNa ?

Namaste Adrian
Jai Shri KrshNa ! ~ ~


KRshNa KRshNa what do you see?
I see sheer transcendence looking back at me....

Thus began the first lines of my first silly poem on KRshNa

Short Answer: Shri KRshNa is pUrNa Bramhan' , pUrNA NArAyaN (VishNu).
pUrNa = Complete. 100%

*Another thing. The poll says God and VishNu,,,, but VishNu IS God. Shiv is God. It is none but God who is VishNu

Others have given good introductions and pointers to scripture. I will bring a small selection of verses from Bhagavad Geeta and Shrimad BhAgvat PurAN. In the meanwhile, you are invited to Walk With Mukunda

Without writing anything further , this is what I listed for Unveiled Artist on another thread yesterday

• An Ocean of Love
• Most Compassionate
• Blissful
• Extremely tranquil - demonstrates pure existence. Sheer existence.
• Most Beautiful
• Very very real, simple, direct and an embodiment of Truth
  
• Friend of all living beings. Remember a good Father is a friend to His children. Wants what is best for them. (Someone may ask - why Father? why not Mother? He is Father, Mother, Friend, like a sibling, Most precious jewel, highest knowledge. Has no gender, and yet, is complete with both genders, i.e. is 100% masculine and 100% feminine at once).

• Lets you be. Gives you freedom within limits. On the other hand, not a blade of grass , not a bat of an eyelid, can happen without His sanction.
• Most humble and Egoless
• Selfless - has no agenda for Himself,
• Has nowhere to go, has nothing to achieve and nothing unknown/ left to know for Himself, is completely full and fulfilled in Himself.
• Only an authentic emotion, a true sentiment, a real feeling of Love will attract Him
• He knows us intricately and accurately. No one can fool Him.
• The fact that He understands us more than we do, is a gift.
• He is very sincere about the promises He makes. No one is standing there to judge Him, but He will not fail His own standards
• He is very very gentle
• Whatever He undertakes - He goes out full all the way 100%.... be it protect, love, guide, teach, mentor, nurture, support, just be there, ...

|| Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||