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Featured Who was Krishna in your tradition?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by adrian009, Sep 25, 2018.

?
  1. A Manifestation of God

    18.2%
  2. An Incarnation of Vishnu

    48.5%
  3. A mythical person

    6.1%
  4. An ordinary man

    3.0%
  5. A man who was a gifted teacher

    3.0%
  6. None of these answer reflect my thoughts

    12.1%
  7. I don't know

    9.1%
  8. Misguided human

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  9. False prophet

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    This question is mainly for Hindus but open for anyone who would like to offer some respectful thoughts or insights.

    The Baha'i faith teaches that Krishna was a 'Manifestation of God' and is ranked alongside other Great Spiritual Teachers such as Buddha, Christ and Muhammad.

    Manifestations of God | What Bahá’ís Believe

    Manifestation of God - Wikipedia

    Bahá'í Faith and Hinduism - Wikipedia

    We have a few scant references to Krishna and Hinduism in our writings or from the talks of Abdu'l-Baha. For example:

    Blessed souls whether Moses, Jesus, Zoroaster, Krishna, Buddha, Confucius, or Muhammad were the cause of the illumination of the world of humanity. How can we deny such irrefutable proof? How can we be blind to such light?"
    ('Abdu'l-Bahá from a Tablet - translated from the Persian)

    The Message of Krishna is the message of love. All God's prophets have brought the message of love....
    ("Paris Talks: Addresses given by `Abdu'l-Bahá in Paris in 1911-1912", 11th ed. (London: Bahá'í Publishing Trust, 1979), p.
    35)

    So in summary we haven't a lot to go on when it comes to Krishna.

    In regards Hinduism Shoghi Effendi has said:

    ...Hinduism, Buddhism, Zoroastrianism, Judaism, Christianity, Islám and the religion of the Sabaeans. These religions are not the only true religions that have appeared in the world, but are the only ones which are still existing. There have always been divine prophets and messengers, to many of whom the Qur'án refers. But the only ones existing are those mentioned above.

    In regards the authenticity of the sacred writings including the Bhaghavad Gita we don't have too much to go on either. In response to questions of a more detailed nature Shoghi Effendi said it would be a matter for scholars to investigate further.

    Your question concerning Brahma and Krishna: such matters, as no reference occurs to them in the Teachings, are left for students of history and religion to resolve and clarify.
    (From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi - 14 April 1941)

    We cannot be sure of the authenticity of the scriptures of Buddha and Krishna, so we certainly cannot draw any conclusions about virgin birth mentioned in them. There is no reference to this subject in our teachings, so the Guardian cannot pronounce an opinion.

    Buddha, Krishna, Zoroaster and Related Subjects


    So in regards Krishna we haven't anything specific from the Baha'i writings to say. In fact we don't have much to say about Hinduism other than it is a true religion with Divine origins.

    So who was Krishna? What do we know of Krishna from history and Hindu traditions?






     
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  2. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Can I ask.

    Please be honest. Are you asking to learn about Hindu beliefs from a Hindu perspective, Hindu practice, and Hindu culture or a reflection of these Hindu things to compare the similarites between their religion and yours?

    Are you looking for similarities between both religions?
     
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  3. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    Mainly to learn from others (particularly Hindus) about their perspective. The Baha'i perspective I've outlined. We could compare the theological differences between 'Manifestation of God' and 'Incarnation of Vishnu' and I think that would be interesting to better clarify the views of Hindus.

    Many Hindus worship Krishna and the Vedas is pivotal. That is neither where I've come from (Christianity) nor in my thoughts a great deal as a Baha'i living in the West. If I were a Baha'i who had grown up with a Hindu family and traditions in India it would be very different of course.
     
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  4. Terese

    Terese Mangalam Pundarikakshah
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    I chose the second option, but manifestation of God and incarnation of Vishnu are the same thing to me. :D

    Lord Krishna's life is detailed in the 10th Canto of the Srimad Bhagavatam and to a lesser extent the Mahabharata (which includes the Bhagavad Gita).

    There are many written works made by Vaishnava acharyas that are about Lord Krishna and his opulence. All of these written works propound that Lord Krishna is the Supreme Lord and Brahman that manifested himself for the benefit of his devotees and to destroy adharma. While Lord Krishna has an infinite amount of transcendental qualities, Srila Rupa Goswami has written down 64 qualities of Lord Krishna that are in accordance with scriptures: https://nitaaiveda.com/Compiled_and...solute_Truth/64_Qualities_of_Lord_Krishna.htm
     
    #4 Terese, Sep 25, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2018
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  5. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

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    Terese, kindly ask Bahais if Bahaullah was an incarnation of Allah? An incarnation and a manifestation are different things.

    I know, Bahais asking questions to be able to influence Hindus. But we are poles apart. You are going to fail. Bahaullah did not mention 'Dharmic religions'. What Abdul Baha says for Krishna is wrong. In BhagawadGita, Krishna talks about duty and not love. He instructs Arjuna to take up his righteous fight against his kin. He was not fooling people citing universal love. And Shoghi Effendi was wrong to mention virgin birth in case of Krishna and Buddha. They were normal human births by sex between Vasudeva, Chief of the Vrishni tribe and his wife Devaki; and Shuddhodhana, Chief of the Shakya tribe and his wife, Maya. There is some mention of divine birth (but not a virgin birth - Devaki already had seven sons before Krishna who were killed by Kamsa, their maternal uncle), but those are later embellishments. Actually, none of the Bahai trio knew anything about 'Dharmic religions'.

    Krishna, like Rama, Buddha and six others, was and incarnation of Lord Vishnu, one of the three major deities of Hinduism (Shiva and Durga being the other two - Brahma is a lessor God, though being the creator acting on behalf of one of the three, and the writer of human fate. Brahma is not immortal though he has a life span of some 317 trillion years. Each new creation of the universe comes with its own Brahma - as per Hindu theology/mythology).
     
    #5 Aupmanyav, Sep 25, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2018
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  6. stvdv

    stvdv Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the clear information.

    It is funny the wife was named "Maya". Makes me wonder.
     
  7. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

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    I am an advaitist Hindu pagan and a strong atheist.
    Hah, it is all 'Maya' as Krishna and Buddha said. A veil in front of the truth, ignorance, anicca (temporary), anatta (non-substantiative). :D

    "Maya, bari thagini hum Jani" (Maya, I know is a great deceiver) - Saint Kabir Das

    Maya bari thagini hum jani; tirgun phans liye kar dole bole madhure bani
    Keshav ke Kamla vai baithi, shiva ke bhavan bhavani,
    panda ke murat vai baithi, tirath mein bhai pani.
    Yogi ke yogin vai baithi, raja ke ghar rani,
    kahu ke heera vai baithi, kahu ke cowri kani.
    bhagat ki bhagatin vai baithi, Brahma ke Brahmani,
    kahe Kabir suno bhai sadho, yah sab akath kahani.


    Maya is a great deciever, I know; it moves speaking sweet words to entice all three gunas with the bait in hand.
    In Vishnu's house, she is Laxmi; in Shiva's house she is Parvati;
    She is the idol with the priest, she is water at the place of pilgrimage.
    She is the female counterpart of a Yogi, she is the queen of a king in the palace;
    She exists as a diamond in one place, in another as a broken cowri shell.
    She is the female counterpart of a devotee, in Brahma's house, she is Brahmani;
    Listen, O Nice People, what Kabir is saying; this all is a story which cannot be explained.

    [​IMG] Saint Kabir Das (1398–1448 or 1440–1518)
     
    #7 Aupmanyav, Sep 25, 2018
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  8. stvdv

    stvdv Well-Known Member

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    "Who Am I" question comes to mind: The one you think you are, the one others think you are, the one you really are.

    I was told:
    Krishna is a Poorna (16 divine attributes) Avatar. I do not believe Bahaullah, Jesus, Muhammad, Buddha were Poorna Avatars
    Rama was not a Poorna Avatar (He had 12 divine attributes; His wife Seeta had all 16 divine attributes)
     
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  9. Kirran

    Kirran
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    Poll won't let me pick multiple options!
     
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  10. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    Put in your preferred option and you explain your thoughts please. Althought I have placed this thread in the religious debates section it is to enable participants to post freely. I'm here to learn and have a friendly chat. I have no desire to argue religion.
     
  11. ajay0

    ajay0 Well-Known Member

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    Sikhism, Arya Samaj , the Prajapita Brahmakumaris are dharmic sects which consider Krishna as a great soul who worshipped the Supreme Lord in the name of Om or Shiva respectively. This is very similar to the Bahai version of Krishna.
    The Ahmediya sect of Islam also consider Krishna as a prophet and have the same perspective.

    Hindu sects associated with the Vishistadvaita and Dvaita philosophies however consider Krishna as God in a similar manner to Christianity seeing Jesus as God.
     
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  12. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    Your words are like flashes of light confirming in my inner most being the transcendant nature of Lord Krishna and the mystery that inseperably binds His exalted Being with the Supreme. Thank you Terese.
     
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  13. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    The question is a profound one that none of us can truly answer. If we are lovers of the Divine then its a mystery to be enjoyed rather than a problem to be solved.

    Would you elaborate on the distinguishing qualities of a Poorna Avatar please?

    The very purpose of the Lord’s incarnations is to protect the good and destroy the evil and establish righteousness. Of course, He can achieve this end easily with His mere Sankalpa. But out of compassion for His devotees who are steeped in His glory, He incarnates to grace them in person and makes Himself accessible to them. Since the created universe held by His Maya is bound by limitations of many kinds, the Lord restrains His infinite Paratva when He incarnates. Suka points out this subtle truth when Krishna is born, said Sri B. Sundarkumar in a discourse.

    Poorna Avatar
     
  14. ajay0

    ajay0 Well-Known Member

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    I would like to mention here that Krishna describes himself as Brahman or Self or pure consciousness or Awareness in the Bhagavad Gita.

    This is very similar to Jehovah's 'I am that I am ' in the Old Testament.

    The 'I am' is given a lot of importance in Hinduism and especially the advaitan/nondualist traditions.

    As the enlightened master Nisargadatta Maharaj stated," Be content with what you are sure of . And the only thing you can be sure of is 'I am'. Stay with it, and reject everything else. This is yoga. "


    The nondualist teacher Joan Tollifson also states thus, " The first light of consciousness, the "I am" as it is often called, is prior to name and form. It is the impersonal sense of bare presence, of being here now.

    Before the thought-story-memory that "I am Joan" arises, there is the knowingness of being present and aware. "
     
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  15. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    You could ask me yourself of course.

    So Krishna did not speak of love?

     
  16. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    Thank you Ajay. I must say that your words resonate with me. You seem insightful and non judgemental.

    Thats really helpful to know there are traditions within Hunduism similar to my own.

    You may be interested to know that Baha'is chant Allah'u'abha 95 times per day with is considered the greatest name of God.

    Alláh-u-Abhá - Wikipedia

    Bahá'í symbols - Wikipedia

    Ahmadiyya Islam and the Baha'i Faith certainly have many similarities and both claim fulfilment of the Qa'im prophecy in Islam.

    List of Mahdi claimants - Wikipedia

    Paar as been rather busy recently explaining to the Baha'is why his faith is the true one lol.

    That's really interesting too as we have have both Krishna and Jesus as literal physical incarnations of God. Rather than trying to argue which narrative is more correct, its enough for now to reflect on the diversity of belief surrounding the Divinity of Krishna. What you have told me enables more research into the origins of those differing perspectives.
     
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  17. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    'I am' has always mystified me and your explanation in regards the God-head or Braham makes sense.

    The Bab when interrogated by outraged leaders in Persia spoke these words in response to questions about the claims He was making:

    "I am, I am, I am the Promised One! I am the One whose name you have for a thousand years invoked, at whose mention you have risen, whose advent you have longed to witness, and the hour of whose Revelation you have prayed to God to hasten." - The Báb

    Bahá'í Reference Library - The Dawn-Breakers: Nabíl’s Narrative of the Early Days of the Bahá’í Revelation, Pages 309-324

    Once again, your knowledge of Hindu traditions in relation to the nuances of Abrahamic and Baha'i belief is very helpful.
     
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  18. Marcion

    Marcion Tantra-Yoga Universalist

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    Are there any online texts written or spoken by this Bahai trio about the Hindu gods?

    Found this:
    Buddha, Krishna, Zoroaster and Related Subjects

    7. The Message of Krishna is the message of love. All God's prophets have brought the message of love....

    ("Paris Talks: Addresses given by `Abdu'l-Bahá in Paris in 1911-1912", 11th ed. (London: Bahá'í Publishing Trust, 1979), p. 35)

    8. A star has the same radiance if it shines from the East or from the West. Be free from prejudice, so will you love the Sun of Truth from whatsoever point in the horizon it may arise! You will realize that if the Divine light of truth shone in Jesus Christ it also shone in Moses and in Buddha. The earnest seeker will arrive at this truth....

    ("Paris Talks: Addresses given by `Abdu'l-Bahá in Paris in 1911-1912", p. 137)

    9. To Israel He was neither more nor less than the incarnation of the "Everlasting Father," the "Lord of Hosts" come down "with ten thousands of saints"; to Christendom Christ returned "in the glory of the Father," to Shí'ah Islám the return of the Imám Husayn; to Sunní Islám the descent of the "Spirit of God" (Jesus Christ); to the Zoroastrians the promised Sháh-Bahrám; to the Hindus the reincarnation of Krishna; to the Buddhists the fifth Buddha...To His Dispensation the sacred books of the followers of Zoroaster had referred as that in which the sun must needs be brought to a standstill for no less than one whole month. To Him Zoroaster must have alluded when, according to tradition, He foretold that a period of three thousand years of conflict and contention must needs precede the advent of the World-Savior Sháh-Bahrám, Who would triumph over Ahriman and usher in an era of blessedness and peace.

    10. He alone is meant by the prophecy attributed to Gautama Buddha Himself, that "a Buddha named Maitreye, the Buddha of universal fellowship" should, in the fullness of time, arise and reveal "His boundless glory." To Him the Bhagavad-Gita of the Hindus had referred as the "Most Great Spirit," the "Tenth Avatar," the "Immaculate Manifestation of Krishna."

    (Shoghi Effendi, "God Passes By", rev. ed. (Wilmette: Bahá'í Publishing Trust, 1987), pp. 94-95)

    12. As regards your study of the Hindu religion: The origins of this and many other religions that abound in India are not quite known to us, and even the Orientalists and the students of religion are not in complete accord about the results of their investigations in that field. The Bahá'í writings also do not refer specifically to any of these forms of religion current in India. So, the Guardian feels it impossible to give you any definite and detailed information on that subject. He would urge you, however, to carry on your studies in that field, although its immensity is well-nigh bewildering, with the view of bringing the Message to the Hindus. The task of converting this section of the Indian population is a most vital obligation, although the Guardian is fully aware of the many difficulties that it presents. Nevertheless the friends should do their best to make as many converts among the Hindus as they possibly can.

    (From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi - 17 April 1936)

    This looks to me comparatively superficial and makes me want to stop reading any further.
    It is interesting though to see how the Bahai want to press everything into their own created ideological mould. There are other ideologies that try to do this on a much smaller scale such as the Mormons and also different Hindu ideologies do it. It also happens in yet a different manner in my own tradition.

    But with the Bahai, just like the Islam they seem to see their own ideology as the latest "revealed truth" come to replace all the others and therefore as superior!
     
    #18 Marcion, Sep 25, 2018
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  19. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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  20. Vinayaka

    Vinayaka devotee
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    As you know, I'm not a Vaishnavite, so I answered 'I don't know'. Can I presume that when the Baha'i talk about 'Hinduism', they're not actually talking about the umbrella of faiths termed Hinduism, but just Gaudiya Vaishnavism?

    In Hinduism itself, many folks make the same error, thinking their own particular sect is representative of all of Hinduism, when in fact, there may be quite the variety. It's only because they haven't gotten around much, which may well be the case with Baha'i.

    Even here, with several different POVs being represented, you run the risk of cherry picking (and have already) the view that is the most compatible with the Baha'i faith.
     
    #20 Vinayaka, Sep 25, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2018
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