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Featured Who was, and is the beast right now?

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by 2ndpillar, Feb 25, 2018.

  1. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist My baby niece

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    You'd have to rephrase without the negativity. Its hard to follow your points while calling another christian church a beast etc. My mind doesn't work that. Probably why I'm not Christian among other reasons. :(
     
  2. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    I am sorry, but I did not call "another Christian church a beast". The "beast" spoken of were kings of kingdoms". The "beast with two horns like a lamb", was a king/emperor, of Rome. The "church" would be referred to as a "daughter of Babylon", and not a king, nor a kingdom, but the Pope, and his Vatican, comes real close to blurring the lines. But not to worry, for according to Isaiah 22:25, the Pope is destined to "fall" and those hanging on to him, will be "cut off".
     
  3. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist My baby niece

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    Youre describing how You define and interpret scripture as and is the Church. Pope. Vatian. You are calling another christian not "christian" church the daugter of babylon. Is that possitive?

    The church would be referred to the daughter of babylom?

    What does a persons involvement in the body of christ and his passion (The Church) have to do with babylon?
     
  4. JM Hardwick

    JM Hardwick SkyguyMasterDiver

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    2ndpillar, are you an atheist?
     
  5. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    "Revelation" was undoubtedly written for the people who lived several decades after Jesus was crucified, so the symbolism that is used within pretty much had to be understood by those living at that time. Most theologians that I have read tend to feel that the period of time during Nero's reign and shortly thereafter is what's being referred to, and that the "666" (variation: "626") is a reference to Nero himself, who declared himself as being a god and that would be reborn.
     
  6. Truthseeker9

    Truthseeker9 Active Member

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    The Baha'i Faith says that the beast was the Umayyad dynasty of Islam. See the following:

    Verses 3 and 4. "And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth."[1] These signs are an allusion to the dynasty of the Umayyads who dominated the Muhammadan religion. Seven heads and seven crowns mean seven countries and dominions over which the Umayyads had power: they were the Roman dominion around Damascus; and the Persian, Arabian and Egyptian dominions, together with the dominion of Africa -- that is to say, Tunis, Morocco and Algeria; the dominion of Andalusia, which is now Spain; and the dominion of the Turks of Transoxania. The Umayyads had power over these countries. The ten horns mean the names of the Umayyad rulers -- that is, without repetition, there were ten names of rulers, meaning ten names of commanders and chiefs -- the first is Abu Sufyan and the last Marvan -- but several of them bear the same name. So there are two Muaviya, three Yazid, two Valid, and two Marvan; but if the names were counted without repetition there would be ten.
    (Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 69)
     
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  7. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    Then after the 50th year there is another Jubilee in 49 more years. That is cyclical. It cycles.
     
  8. JM Hardwick

    JM Hardwick SkyguyMasterDiver

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    Revelation was written when Christians were entering a time of persecution. The two periods most often mentioned are the latter part of Nero’s reign (AD 54 – 68) and the latter part of Domitian’s reign (AD 81 – 96). Most interpreters date the book c. AD 95.
     
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  9. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    Most theologians are smarter than I am, however they can be limited by constraints placed upon them by the systems they are in. I tend to have a dreamy interpretation of this and imagine that the people writing it are very intelligent and are focused on the long-haul. I will try to remember what you have said about Nero and consider it in the future. In my experience lots of people want to peg Revelation to a particular leader, and it never seems to work. Revelation talks about 1000 years, and it uses enemies that are always with us: war, death, famine and the dragon. It constantly emphasizes the number '7', too. What I think about that 7 means "Keep going until its finished." If it were a path sign it would mean "Just keep going."
     
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  10. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    And what about verses Revelation 13:5-18)?
     
  11. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    The cycle is one of the land returning to Israel and debts being forgiven. As in 1967 after the 6 days war, Jerusalem was returned to Judah, and in 1917, after the defeat of the Ottomans and the Germans at Megiddo, the Balfour declaration introduced the Jewish Zionist into Judea. We are in the current Jubliee, starting in 2017, whereas the nations will be gathered to plan to "wipe" "Israel" "out" as a "nation" (Psalm 83:4), and they will be gathered to the "valley of judgment" (Joel 3:2), and they will be "crushed" all "at the same time" (Daniel 2:44), and then the nation of Israel will have the land to gather from the nations their brothers, the "house of Israel" (Ezekiel 36:24). The cycle is one of 50 years, and it is one of returning land to Israel to fulfill Scriptures, such as Hosea 5 -6, when after 2 days/2000 years, the judgment of Judah and Israel will be over.
     
  12. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    Ask the founders of the Protestant church, Luther, Knox, and Calvin. They called the Roman Church, "the Whore of Babylon". I used the softer label of "daughter of Babylon", which is taken from Zechariah 2:7. The coming "awesome day of the LORD" is not about being "positive", it is about justice for the saints (Rev 6:10-11).
    Whore of Babylon - Wikipedia
     
  13. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    There are two paths, the narrow one, which "few" follow, and the "broad" "path", which the many follow to "destruction". One should be careful which path they choose. (Matthew 7:13)
     
  14. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist My baby niece

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    What does each persons relationship with christ in his body have to do with babylon?

    Can you see you are calling christ babylon?
     
  15. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    I think Revelation is a letter written about our own lives whatever time we live in and is not about predicting the future, and using it that way is a cruelty foisted upon those who ought to be left alone.
     
  16. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    To decipher Revelation 13:1 to make any since of it, first you have to know what the
    (sea) (beast) (seven heads) (ten horns)
    (ten crowns) all Represents.

    The (sea) being water, Represents people, and multitudes, Nations,
    See Revelation 17:15.

    Therefore the beast that rises up out of the sea, and seeing how the sea Represents people and Multitudes of people and Nations,
    The beast comes to establish a One World Order Government that will rise up out the Nations of the world. To form a One World Order Government that will rule the whole earth.

    This is why it is said in Revelation 13:4--
    --"And they worshipped the beast saying,
    Who is like unto the beast, who is able to make war with him"

    If the whole earth is under the control of a One World Order Government, how is anyone going to make war with a Government that controls all the military of the world ?

    Now as for the (seven heads and ten horns)

    Over in Revelation 17:1 we find the
    ( seven heads and ten horns)

    In Verse 8 we find the beast, (that shall ascend out of the bottomless pit). to find out who this beast is, go to
    Revelation 20:1-3:that here you will find Satan as being cast into the bottomless pit, therefore the beast is Satan that shall ascend out of the bottomless pit.

    Now back to Revelation Chapter 17 and Verse 9---"Here is the mind which has wisdom, The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sits.

    We found in Revelation 13:1,That Sea, Represents, people and Multitudes, and Nations in Revelation 17:15.

    Mountain's Represents kingdoms, Nations,
    As in the scriptures refers Israel as being a Mountain. As many other kingdoms in the scriptures as being mountains.
    As a Mountain Represents a mighty Nation of people.

    Now we go back to Revelation 17:10--"And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come, and when he comes, he must continue a short space"

    So who is this king, that when he comes must continue a short space?

    There's only one king that when he comes, that will rule all nations, that will become the One World Order. To rule all Nations of the world.becoming the One World Order.

    That we find in Revelation 9:11--"And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit.
    As we found out in Revelation 20:1-3 that Satan as being the only one to be cast into the bottomless pit. So the king that is to be king over them that comes up out of the bottomless pit would be Satan himself.

    Now if you Notice back above in Verse 11
    ( And they) This being People, Multitudes, and Nations of the world. That Satan will establish himself as their king over all people and Multitudes and Nations. That he will be their king over the One World Order.

    Now back to Revelation 17:10, Notice at the bottom of the Verse it said ( he must continue a short space)

    Now back in Revelation 12:12, we will find the devil, to be Satan, in Verse 9, and Notice the devil, Satan (knows he has but a short time)
    That we find in Revelation 17:10 ( he must continue a short space) ( short time) this being the Devil, Satan himself.

    Therefore the beast and king that is found in Revelation Chapter 17 that both Represents the Devil, Satan himself.

    In Revelation 17:12, you will find the ten horns, which Represents ten kings. Notice that these ten kings are not kings of the earth, Where as in Verse 2 you will find kings of the earth.

    The kings that are in Verse 12, are Satan's fallen angels that comes with Satan and will receive power as kings one hour with Satan.
    Notice where it said ( one hour ) this being the hour of temptation spoken of in Revelation 3:10. That when Satan come, he will deceive the whole world into believing by deception that he is Christ.

    This is where in Revelation 13:11--"And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and had two horns like a lamb, and he spoke as a dragon"

    (had two horns like a lamb), This being Satan impersonating Christ. But speaks as a dragon, which Satan is the dragon. Revelation 12:9.

    In Revelation 17:5 here you will find ( Mystery Babylon The Great, The Mother of Harlots and Abominations of the Earth)

    To find out who this Babylon the great is, will take us back to the beginning how Babylon started. That back in the book of
    Genesis 10:8-10, that we find Nimrod, who built a tower that came to be known as ( Babel)

    Which by the time of Daniel the prophet's day, Babel, became Babylon. Where as Babylon at Daniel's time was in deceving People. So is the spirit of Babylon deceiving people to day.

    Being the Mother of Harlots, being the Nations of the world are being deceived just like in Daniel the Prophet's day people were being deceived by Babylon.

    Where as you went to other book's of the bible, to explain the things in the book of Revelation.

    Where as I didn't even leave the book of Revelation. To explain the things in the book of Revelation.

    Christ put everything in the book of Revelation, to be found in the book of Revelation.


    Where as your following the teachings of what man will say.

    Where as I am following the teachings of what Christ Jesus will say.
     
    #36 Faithofchristian, Feb 27, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2018
  17. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    I think the lessons found in Revelation can be applied to all ages, so I agree with you.

    With the "666" and "626", these numbers translate to Nero's name matched with a god. The "1000 year reign" may be a reference to Jesus' "kingdom of God", whereas "1000 years" is symbolic to eternity since "1000" was the highest number in Hebrew at that time.

    But what these symbols may all stand for is always going to be a bit dubious, and it was this confusion as well as some confusion as to whom the author(s) is/are of the book [a tradition is that even though "John on Patmos" shows up in the book as the author, apparently there's a question as to whether that was true] that was the reason why this book was heavily debated as to whether it could be included in the canon.

    The millennial reign doesn't show up in any other book, nor was it part of any oral tradition, so the scholars that felt that it should be held only symbolically.
     
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  18. fallingblood

    fallingblood Agnostic Theist

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    I think there is way too much overthinking here. The Beast, as described in Revelations, is Nero, or someone who reigned like Nero. The number, 666, or most likely, 616 (as seen in the oldest and best manuscripts), relates to Nero. I'm just going to copy and paste what I wrote in another thread: We can look at Nero Caesar in Greek. In the Hebrew alphabet, that comes out to נרון קסר, or transliterated, to NRON QSR. Those numbers are 200, 60, 100; 50, 60, 200, 50. That equals 666. We know that Nero was addressed like this because we have scrolls from that time that refer to him in that manner.

    What really solidifies this though is that it also works with 616. So taking the Latin version, we drop the second Nun in the title, and it comes out to נרו קסר in Hebrew. Transliterated, it is NRO QSR. Those numbers are 200, 60, 100; 6, 200, 50. That equals 616. Again, we know Nero was addressed in this manner because we have evidence from that time period.

    Putting this in context. We are told that the Beast has a mark (the mark of the Beast). Paul never had a mark. Tarsus didn't have a mark. Nero did. So the term used in Greek is χάραγμα. It was also used in regards for imprints on documents or coins, specifically, it is really attested to in regards to an imperial seal that was used in the Roman Empire during that time (1st and 2nd century). Again, another point for Nero. There was even rumors, or legends, that after Nero died, he would return. Or that he wasn't even dead. Nero really fits the mold here.

    The mark really takes an effect here as you couldn't buy or sell items in the Roman Empire really without using mark which was on basically every coin in the Empire. For Christians, this was a problem as it required the participation in Roman idolatry. And this really wasn't any small deal. In fact, when the Jews had revolted against Rome, one of the initial things they did was coin their own money.

    The seven hills are a clear reference to Rome. Babylon is a clear reference to Rome. Everything points to the Beast being the leader of Rome, and in particular, Nero.
     
  19. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    Nero didn't have two horns like a lamb, and he didn't "deceive" "those who dwell on the earth" (Revelation 13:14), nor did he fulfill Daniel 7:24-25, and endeavor to "make alterations in times and in law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time". Nero was nothing but a depraved megalomaniac
    .Biography of the Roman Emperor Nero (12-41)

    The beast was Constantine, and his number was 616, and his decree of 321 A.D. was you couldn't buy or sell on his god's day of the sun. Constantine’s' name and title, Caius Flavius Valerius Constantinus the Great King of Rome, add up to 616. "Let him who has understand calculate the number of the beast", which according to Daniel 12:10, would preclude the wicked.
     
  20. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    The beast of Revelation 13:1 is described in Revelation 13:2, "like a leopard, bear, lion", which is the beast of Daniel 7:3 "and the four great beast were coming up from the sea, different from one another, the first was like a lion, and had wings of an eagle (Babylon)....a bear (Persia)....leopard (Macedonia/Greece).....with large iron teeth (Rome).
     
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