1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured Who was, and is the beast right now?

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by 2ndpillar, Feb 25, 2018.

  1. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2013
    Messages:
    2,692
    Ratings:
    +184
    Who was, and is the beast right now?

    The “beast” of Revelation 13:1, with “seven heads” is the same beast as Revelation 13:2, which is the beast of Daniel 7:3-8, which is representative of Babylon through to Rome. The “beast” of Revelation 13:4, is “one of his heads which had been slain” (Revelation 13:3), and was healed, and to have “authority for forty two months” (Rev 13:5), the length of the reign of Julius Caesar as a dictator. He “made war with the saints” (Rev 13:7), as one of his initial co rulers of the Roman Republic, Pompey, destroyed Jerusalem. Julius Augustus Caesar was slain by the Senate, yet was healed as the Augustus Caesars, the 6th head of the beast, who also went on to rule as gods. He made war with the saints through to the 10th horn of Augustus Caesars, Titus, who destroyed Jerusalem in 70 A.D.

    The “dragon” is the devil, Satan, and the Serpent (Revelation 20:2), who gave his authority to the beast (Rev 13:4). The dragon rules the word through the beast. (John 14:30)

    The 7th head of the beast was the “another” (king) of Daniel 7:24-26). He is the “beast with two horns like a lamb”, Constantine, who instituted the Roman Church through his convened Council of Nicaea in 325 A.D. Constantine went on to “conquer” the world through the symbol of the cross, his labarum, which was the vision given to him by Sol Invictus in 312 A.D. In effect, he conquered the world through the false gospel of the cross by way of the false prophet Paul, one of the “horns like a lamb”. The 8th head of the beast will be the one who “was, is not, is himself also an 8th” (Rev 17:11) and is the Emperor/Dictator Julius Caesar, in the form of a “demon spirit” (Rev 16:13-19).
    The 10 horns of the 8th head will hate the “harlot” who is Judah/Jews, and will persecute her and burn her with fire Rev 17:11). That would be the kingdoms which persecuted the Jews, from Germany, Russia, France, Spain, Iraq, Iran, Egypt, etc., and they will eventually be “crushed” (Daniel 2:35 & 44), and the “dragon” will be chained in the abyss (Revelation 20:1-3).
     
  2. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2014
    Messages:
    30,645
    Ratings:
    +10,156
    Religion:
    Process of Spiritual Healing
    How did you get Julius Ceaser from Revelations?

    Are you saying that the decendents of the apostles are the beast?

    Last time I read Constantine was the one who stopped the killing of christians. How did Augustus conquer the world? World did he conquer where Asians, Africans, and West Indian were in the mix of being conquered?

    Do you have specific correlations from the bible to history that, if true, should have been recorded this connection as well?
     
  3. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2012
    Messages:
    30,041
    Ratings:
    +11,022
    Religion:
    liber-scripta grim Christian
    That is a very complicated interpretation and probably overthinks the 7 heads. In the story of Joshua, the walls of Jericho fall on the 7th time around the city. Rest comes on the 7th day of creation, and the seventh year is a Jubilee year of rest. Revelation tells us it is full of symbols, and seven is a symbol, not a number of kings or of kingdoms. It refers to the continual struggle with the beast down through the ages, the beast which has always attacked the saints. At the time of writing the author is thinking of Jewish history of course and is including the Christian martyrs with all of the saints who have been killed. The beast is the entire complicated thing that causes the peaceful to be oppressed which rises up spontaneously in humanity, and so it is a very difficult enemy that sometimes dominates but which must be resisted. Its got seven heads, because the saints must keep enduring just like Joshua has to keep going around Jericho until he is told otherwise. We do not know when the beast will finally be defeated, and so it has seven heads.
     
  4. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2013
    Messages:
    2,692
    Ratings:
    +184

    You seem to be over thinking this thing. Simply read Daniel 2, and you will have the entire history of the Jewish people from Nebachedezzar until the time the stone cut without hands, the kingdom of God, crushes all the kingdoms which have persecuted Judah for Judah’s sins. As for the Jubilee, the Jubilee 50th year cycle of the Jews getting back their land, Jerusalem, started last year. The 70th year anniversary of Israel is this May, that puts us in the generation of the birth of Israel. We could be perilous times. If you had read your bible, you would know that the “day of the LORD” doesn’t start until Jerusalem is captured (Zechariah 14:1-3). Right now the nations are being gathered against Jerusalem. One press of a nuclear missile button, and we have the fulfilling of Zechariah 14:12. It is the Roman Church and the Holy Roman Empire, which persecuted and killed the Jews, and even forced all the Jews in Spain to either convert, leave Spain, or get burned alive. No one with the mark of the beast takes part in the resurrection (Revelation 20:4). You had better think again, and find out who the beast is, and what is the mark, for the beast is dead, and the mark is in place. I forgot to tell you, according to Zechariah 17:11, the beast actually has 8 heads.
     
  5. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2013
    Messages:
    2,692
    Ratings:
    +184

    Do I write that poorly? Maybe it would help if you read the links given. Gee wiz, how did you get the “apostles are the beast”? The two horns like a lamb, who are “Christ like leaders”, are the self professed apostle Paul (Zechariah 11:4-10), the false prophet, and the “worthless shepherd” (Zechariah 11:15-17) Peter, who Yeshua called "Satan" (Matthew 16:23). They are not the beast, these two shepherds(Zechariah 11:4-7) just help the beast "deceive" "those who dwell on the earth" (Revelation 13:14). Now as far as followers of the "two horns like a lamb", well yes, they in general have the mark of the beast, and will drink the wine of the wrath of God, unless they should take Yeshua's advice, and come out "of her" (Revelation 18:4).

    As for Augustus Caesar conquering the world, that was the known world. He conquered north Africa, Asia minor, Egypt, southern Europe, including parts of England. If you read Daniel 7:3-14 which parallels Revelation 13:2, you will be apprised of the whole history of the Jews from Babylon, to the crushing of the kingdoms, which brought God’s judgment onto Judah. That includes Babylon to Rome. Revelation simply fills in the blanks, but the outline was already in place.


    upload_2018-2-25_19-14-35.jpeg
    Roman empire
     

    Attached Files:

  6. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2014
    Messages:
    30,645
    Ratings:
    +10,156
    Religion:
    Process of Spiritual Healing
    Sounds negative and belittlement. The church is linked from the apostles. Put down the church, you put down the apostles, thus christ. Before the roman split.

    My question is if your connections are true, why wouldnt history use biblical scripture as the core of its facts?

    So far I read from history, christianity that shaped the bible didnt have a good rep. But you have to talk from a historical view not biblical.
     
    #6 Unveiled Artist, Feb 25, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2018
  7. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2014
    Messages:
    30,645
    Ratings:
    +10,156
    Religion:
    Process of Spiritual Healing
    Ima come back to this. Were studying the ephesians and romans. Would be a good topic outside the negativity
     
  8. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2013
    Messages:
    2,692
    Ratings:
    +184

    Your “christianity” has little link from the original apostles chosen by Yeshua. 2/3of the NT is from the self professed Paul and his disciples. 2 Peter 3, which refers to Paul as a brother of Peter, was written by an unknown author, which was a common practice at that time. As for history, history is written by the victors. The "dragon" is the current victor and ruler. The ruler of the world is the “dragon”/devil (Revelation 13:4), who rules through the leadership of the kingdoms, which are referred to as “heads” of the beast. One head of the beast, the 7th head, who ruled over a reunited Rome, was Constantine, and it was through him that “those who dwell on the earth” were to be “deceived” as prophesized by Yeshua in Revelation 13:14) as well as prophesized in Daniel 7:24-25.

    As for Yeshua, he chose Judas Iscariot to fulfill (Zechariah 11:13) as shown by Matthew 27:9-10, which quotes from Zechariah 11:12-13 with respect to Judas. Paul was chosen to fulfill Zechariah 11:10, and named “Favor” because of this false gospel of Grace. Someone had to fulfill Zechariah 11:16-17, and Zechariah 11:10, and that was Peter and Paul, and Yeshua had to fulfill those parts of the prophets (Matthew 5:17), because he was the “Word” made flesh, which means he has to fulfill the Law and the prophets. Judas, Peter and Paul, and the “flock doomed to slaughter” were determined by “the LORD my God”(Zechariah 11:4), and Yeshua brought it about. It is about doing the will of God, and no regard is made for the sensibilities of self righteous men or women, whose ways simply lead to destruction (Proverbs 14:12).

    As for a historical point of view, I included the historical background in my post. There is more, but I am writing a post and not a book.
     
  9. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2014
    Messages:
    30,645
    Ratings:
    +10,156
    Religion:
    Process of Spiritual Healing
    Break up the info. You dont have to prove anything just discuss.

    Its not my christianity. Its just a word that includes ones relationship with christ.
     
  10. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2013
    Messages:
    2,692
    Ratings:
    +184

    What "church" would that be? According to Paul, all the other apostles taught the Jews, and that teaching would include the Law and the prophets, inclusive of Circumcision, which came by way of Abraham. They would be teaching “repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand”. Their modus operandi, would be to heal the sick, raise the dead, and preach the kingdom of heaven is at hand. Paul supposedly raised the dead by waiting for a guy who knocked himself out falling out of a window, to wake up, and Paul declared him now alive. And for someone, to enter into the kingdom, one must be more righteous than the Pharisees. If a man simply looks at a women, it is adultery. (Matthew 5:28) You are going to get a perverse story from the Pharisee, and from his associates. It is like Obama or Hillary, if their mouths are moving, be careful were you walk. Apparently, according to Paul’s associate, Paul was told to tell the Gentiles to not eat blood, fornicate, or worship idols. He must have dropped that letter in the wrong mailbox.
     
  11. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2013
    Messages:
    2,692
    Ratings:
    +184

    What "church" would that be? According to Paul, all the other apostles taught the Jews, and that teaching would include the Law and the prophets, inclusive of Circumcision, which came by way of Abraham. They would be teaching “repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand”. Their modus operandi, would be to heal the sick, raise the dead, and preach the kingdom of heaven is at hand. Paul supposedly raised the dead by waiting for a guy who knocked himself out falling out of a window, to wake up, and Paul declared him now alive. And for someone, to enter into the kingdom, one must be more righteous than the Pharisees. If a man simply looks at a women, it is adultery. (Matthew 5:28) You are going to get a perverse story from the Pharisee, and from his associates. It is like Obama or Hillary, if their mouths are moving, be careful were you walk. Apparently, according to Paul’s associate, Paul was told to tell the Gentiles to not eat blood, fornicate, or worship idols. He must have dropped that letter in the wrong mailbox.
     
  12. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2014
    Messages:
    30,645
    Ratings:
    +10,156
    Religion:
    Process of Spiritual Healing
    It is very simple. The Church (not just Roman) is a "continuation" of the apostles teachings of christ. Everything you know about christ was not written by christ. All the books outside the Torah were put together by The Church. The source of what is inspired by god and what is not was all decided by The Church.

    Everything you are quoting and Church history are all products of The Church. The Laws jesus pointed and referred to were the laws of Moses and his god.

    Your belittlement of the Church makes it hard to understand your point without being pulled in with bias I disagree with.
     
  13. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2012
    Messages:
    30,041
    Ratings:
    +11,022
    Religion:
    liber-scripta grim Christian
    Daniel is apocrypha. Its not History or Science.
    All of the date event ideas are irrelevant and attempts to match events are the over thinking. To begin with you have called Daniel 'History' when its apocrypha. Its always been apocrypha. All I did was call you out on it.

    Jubilee happens cyclically every 7 and 49 years.

    Of course you are not asking me, but its not the way to use Zeke. One fellow came on the forum and was trying to prove that Ezekiel was talking about nukes and a nuclear war, and this reminds me of that incident. Zechariah is timeless. Things happen over and over, year after year and century after century; and the prophets words are personal not for military strategy or news rooms.
    They have been gathered against Jerusalem for the last 4000 years. The name of the city is "City of Peace," so until they lay down their weapons they are against it.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  14. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2013
    Messages:
    2,692
    Ratings:
    +184
    Ask your mother when her "Jubilee" anniversary happens. The "Jubilee" follows 7 sets of weeks.

    New American Standard Bible Lev 25:11
    You shall have the fiftieth year as a jubilee; you shall not sow, nor reap its aftergrowth, nor gather in from its untrimmed vines.
     
  15. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2013
    Messages:
    2,692
    Ratings:
    +184
    The "apocrypha" of Daniel is not found in most Protestant bibles, and I have not quoted from those 3 chapters. You seem to write, but you don't seem to check your facts.

    The Additions to Daniel comprise three chapters not found in the Hebrew and Aramaic text of Daniel. The text of these chapters is found in the Koine Greek Septuagint, the earliest Old Greek translation. They are accepted as canonical and translated as such in Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, and Syriac Bibles. They are listed in Article VI of the Thirty-Nine Articles of the Church of England.[1] However, most Protestant Bibles exclude these passages as Biblical apocrypha, retaining only the text available today in the Hebrew/Aramaic manuscripts.

    The additions are:

     
  16. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2013
    Messages:
    2,692
    Ratings:
    +184
    A quote from Zechariah 14:12 is almost word for word of a quote taken from the book "Hiroshema"
    (Zechariah 14:12).

    New American Standard Bible Zechariah 14:12
    Now this will be the plague with which the LORD will strike all the peoples who have gone to war against Jerusalem; their flesh will rot while they stand on their feet, and their eyes will rot in their sockets, and their tongue will rot in their mouth.
     
    #16 2ndpillar, Feb 26, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2018
  17. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2013
    Messages:
    2,692
    Ratings:
    +184

    The canon of the Protestant church, came from the Roman church’s bishop of Alexandria, in the year 367 A.D. It is a compilation but together by a “daughter of Babylon” (Zechariah 2;7) & (Matthew 13) in which the “good seed” the “word of the kingdom” (Mt 13:19) is mixed with the “tare seed” (Mt 13:25) the message of the “evil one”(Mt 13:38), in the same “field” (Mt 13:25-29). Now we are at the end of the age (Mt 13:30 & 40), and it is time to start gathering up the tares, and throwing them into the fire (Mt 13:30). Your Protestant church has its beginning stemming from a Catholic cleric by the name of Luther in the 16th century, and is based on Roman church dogma, creed, and canon.
     
  18. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2014
    Messages:
    30,645
    Ratings:
    +10,156
    Religion:
    Process of Spiritual Healing
    Is this a negative thing?

    Christianity morphed from The Church. Jesus was a Jew not a roman. I dont see the church coming from babylon. Why do you keep mention Roman?

    Oh. So far Im reading scriptures that "supposedly" connect the church. Dont know why you patterned it that way.

    Your Protestant church has its beginning stemming from a Catholic cleric by the name of Luther in the 16th century, and isbased on Roman church dogma, creed, and canon.

    Which makes it interesting why you quote the bible. Its a compilation by the catholics not protestants.
     
  19. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2013
    Messages:
    2,692
    Ratings:
    +184
    It was not until 1967 that Jerusalem and Judah have been "restored" together (Joel 3:1), and the first opportunity to "capture" "Jerusalem" from "Judah" (Zech 14:1-3) has existed in the last 2000 years. I think you are in for a big surprise when all the "nations where I have scattered you" "I will completely destroy" (Jeremiah 30:11)
     
  20. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2013
    Messages:
    2,692
    Ratings:
    +184

    The “beast with two horns like a lamb”, Constantine, is a Roman Emperor. Your false prophet Paul, is an avowed Roman. The beast of Revelation 13:3-4, is Roman. The Roman church, based on the idolatry of the gods of Babylon, in the form of the sun god Bel/Sol Invictus, the “dragon”/devil, gave his authority to the beasts, which includes Rome.
     
Loading...