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Who says Christ did away with the Law??

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by compvett, Aug 9, 2010.

  1. Ronald

    Ronald Well-Known Member

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    How so?
    If you immitate Paul as he imitates Messiah, how can you not walk in the footsteps of Torah? Yeshua went to Temple on the sabbath, went to the feasts. kept all the Torah commands that applied to him, never made all foods clean.
    Show me one place in the NT, Paul telling anyone to go to church on Sunday.
    Which commandment do you find immpossible to keep? :candle:
     
  2. Pegg

    Pegg Jehovah our God is One

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    according to the religious leaders, Jesus did not observe the sabbath in the same fashion as other jews:
    John 9:14 Incidentally it was Sabbath on the day that Jesus made the clay and opened his eyes. 15 This time, therefore, the Pharisees also took up asking him how he gained sight. He said to them: “He put a clay upon my eyes, and I washed and have sight.” 16 Therefore some of the Pharisees began to say: “This is not a man from God, because he does not observe the Sabbath.” Others began to say: “How can a man that is a sinner perform signs of that sort?” So there was a division among them.

    The reason they accused Jesus of failing to observe the sabbath is because they failed to grasp its spiritual significance. Jesus fully understood what the sabbath represented. It was never meant to be just one day set aside for the purpose of worshiping God . Paul came to understand what the Sabbath truly represented and he spoke about it:
    Hebrews 4:9-11 “There remains a sabbath resting for the people of God. For the man that has entered into God’s rest has also himself rested from his own works, just as God did from his own. Let us therefore do our utmost to enter into that rest

    Resting from ones 'own works' means sacrificing our own goals and purposes and ambitions in order to join ourselves to Gods goals, purposes and ambitions. Jesus had fully committed himself to Gods will....this is how he observed the sabbath...every day was a sabbath for Christ. He devoted his life to Gods purposes and this is why he could do things that other jews could not do on the sabbath. This is why the Jewish leaders accused him of disregarding the sabbath day....they didnt understand it.

    So if you believe that the sabbath is also just one day to set aside to remember God, then you might do well to consider how Jesus observed the sabbath....Jesus entered Gods rest... Paul told christians to enter Gods rest.... Gods rest began at the beginning of the 7th day - a day that is still in progress


    do you know what that means?
     
  3. Pegg

    Pegg Jehovah our God is One

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    Ronald, consider this important point....

    Jesus did not refer to any of the Ten Commandments when asked what was the greatest one, He actually said the greatest commandment was to love God with one’s whole heart, soul, mind and strength.
    Mark 12:28 Now one of the scribes that had come up and heard them disputing, knowing that he had answered them in a fine way, asked him: “Which commandment is first of all?” 29 Jesus answered: “The first is, ‘Hear, O Israel, Jehovah our God is one Jehovah, 30 and you must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind and with your whole strength.
    That was not one of the 10 commandments.

    If the Sabbath law was binding, then Jesus had the perfect opportunity to say so...but he chose to use Moses words from Deut 6:5 where the Isrealites were told to love their God. Did not Jesus say ALL the laws hang on 'love'
    Matthew 22:37 He said to him: “‘You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind.’ 38 This is the greatest and first commandment. 39 The second, like it, is this, ‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments the whole Law hangs, and the Prophets.”

    love fulfills the mosaic law
     
  4. Ronald

    Ronald Well-Known Member

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    AAAHHH! So close,
    ‘You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind.’
    The first five commands (Love God) next five (Love your neighbor) do these and you filfill the whole law.
    [If the Sabbath law was binding, then Jesus had the perfect opportunity to say so...]:yes:

    "Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them.

    :sorry1: Showing you it can be done by man..
     
  5. Ronald

    Ronald Well-Known Member

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    Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

    If you wish to be the least in the kingdom, be my guest. But I do not intend to to vie for the least, I strive to be asked to come further up, "Good and faithful servant".

    My last comment on this issue. Shabbat Shalom
     
  6. Pegg

    Pegg Jehovah our God is One

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    that is not one of the 10 words (commandments)

    Exodus 20:1 And God proceeded to speak all these words, saying:...

    2 “I am Jehovah your God, who have brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slaves. 3 You must not have any other gods against my face

    4 “You must not make for yourself a carved image or a form like anything that is in the heavens above or that is on the earth underneath or that is in the waters under the earth. 5 You must not bow down to them nor be induced to serve them...

    7 “You must not take up the name of Jehovah your God in a worthless way, for Jehovah will not leave the one unpunished who takes up his name in a worthless way.

    8 “Remembering the sabbath day to hold it sacred, 9 you are to render service and you must do all your work six days....

    12 “Honor your father and your mother in order that your days may prove long upon the ground that Jehovah your God is giving you.

    13 “You must not murder.

    14 “You must not commit adultery.

    15 “You must not steal.

    16 “You must not testify falsely as a witness against your fellowman.

    17 “You must not desire your fellowman’s house. You must not desire your fellowman’s wife, nor his slave man nor his slave girl nor his bull nor his *** nor anything that belongs to your fellowman.”



    Where is the command to love God and your neighbour as yourself?
     
  7. james2ko

    james2ko Well-Known Member

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    That is not the way God intended the Sabbath to be kept. These burdensome requirements were handed down to the Pharisees by the progenitors of the oral law which is still practiced today by certain sects of Judaism.

    On several occasions we find the Pharisees accusing Jesus of breaking the Sabbath and transgressing the "tradition of the elders" (Mat 15:1-3; Mat 12:1-3; Mar 7:7-8) and each time Jesus rebuked them. Christ set the example on how to make the sabbath a delight not a burden. Although we use the preparation day (Friday) to prepare our meals for Saturday, we do not consider light cooking or meal preparation as transgressing the commandment.
     
  8. james2ko

    james2ko Well-Known Member

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    Let's reason together, Pegg. Jesus was addressing one of the Scribes, which were strict keepers of the law. Do you think if this scribe perceived Jesus was implying something other than the law [ten commandments], he would have complimented Jesus on His correct answer?

    Furthermore, in your verses' parallel account in Mat 19, Jesus emphasized the keeping of the 10 commandments to the rich young ruler who asked how he can inherit eternal life. Notice what Jesus mentioned in conjuction with the commandments: 'HONOR YOUR FATHER AND YOUR MOTHER,' and, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.' " (vs 19). Leaving no doubt this command was a summary statement of the last six commandments and by association the first four, according to contextual analysis (Mat 5:19;Jas 2:10-11)

    And Jesus defined love as:

    Joh 14:15 "If you love Me, keep My commandments.

    Joh 15:10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.

    John wrote: 1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. ​

    John used the same Greek word for "commandments" (entole) Jesus used when expounding on the Ten commandments, in the Sermon on the Mount, starting in Mat 5:19.



    We see that the law and the prophets were based upon love toward God (first four commandments) and love toward neighbor (the last six)—summary principles from the Ten Commandments. The principle of love toward neighbor repeated in the New Testament, points directly to the Ten Commandments.

    There's no way around it Pegg. It is the keeping of the 10 commandments (not the nine commandments) that will get us a one way ticket to the kingdom. James (the worthy one :D) tells us you break one, you break them all (Jas 2:10-11) Don't be like the rich young ruler who seemed to have kept all the commandments but one and get left behind.
     
  9. james2ko

    james2ko Well-Known Member

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    1. You're right they didn't understand it. Over the centuries, Israel had lost the knowledge and understanding on how to keep the sabbath , as originally commanded by God at Sinai (see post 107). Christ came and set the example on how to properly observe it which the religious leaders rejected.

    2. Then why did Paul make the Gentiles wait until the following sabbath to preach to them the gospel which they most desperately wanted to hear? (Acts 13:14-15, 42-44) or why did Paul work during the week and preach in the synagogue every Sabbath [not everyday] for 18 months in Corinth?? (Acts 18:1-11)

    Additionally, the sabbath command was for a specific period of time which was to be kept holy--set apart for sacred use and here's why



    3. There is plenty of scriptural evidence supporting the fact Paul kept the sabbath and in this verse he places the nail on the coffin, sort of speak, confirming its observance by Christians today. Could it be any more obvious??

    4. That's quite the twist, Pegg :) But the real reason Jesus observed the Sabbath differently than the Jews was because He was actually doing it the way God originally intended. Whereas the Jews were not. Furthermore, if every day was a Sabbath for Christ, then by definition, He broke the commandment by not laboring the other six days! (Exo 20:9).

    5. Let's take a look at what God really said:

    Gen 2:2. "He [God] rested on the seventh day from all is work." Not "is resting" from all His work.

    Exodus 20:11: "The Lord....rested the seventh day." Again Gen 2:3. "In it [the seventh day] He had rested." He blessed the sabbath AFTER He had rested on it.

    Heb 4:4. "God did rest the seventh day from all His works." Not "is resting"!
    Did you notice they are all past and not present tense? Furthermore, If the seventh day has not ended, God should still be resting. Yet scripture indicates He is busy at work: Joh 5:17 But Jesus answered them, "My Father has been working until now, and I have been working." See also Jer 50:25; Exo 32:16; Jos 24:31. Scripture leaves no doubt on the status of the seventh day of creation--it has long been over!!

    6. The length human imagination will stretch to explain away and refrain from obeying the fourth commandment is truly amazing :(
     
  10. Beta

    Beta Well-Known Member

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    Amazing - yes
    surprising - no.
    Luke 6v46 says it all ! :yes: :sad4:
     
  11. Terrywoodenpic

    Terrywoodenpic Oldest Heretic

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    The Jews are still bound in their covenant with God.
    Even they do not see that covenant extending to Christians.
     
  12. Ronald

    Ronald Well-Known Member

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    All I can say is Amen.
    Sure is strange comming from a Christian.

    Shema v'shamar

    Shalom
     
  13. Beta

    Beta Well-Known Member

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    How do you mean 'strange ' ?
    You are aware there are true and false Christians ? :confused:
     
  14. Pegg

    Pegg Jehovah our God is One

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    has it not occurred to you that Paul also had to work to support himself? And has it also not crossed your mind that the synagogue on a Sabbath was where all the jews would come without fail so that the best time for preaching the word was on the Sabbath?


    Read Hebrews 4 in its full context. Paul clearly is explaining that the observance of a sabbath day has nothing to do with Gods sabbath day:

    For we have had the good news declared to us also, even as they (Isrealites) also had; but the word which was heard did not benefit them, because they were not united by faith with those who did hear. 3 For we who have exercised faith do enter into the rest, just as he has said: “So I swore in my anger, ‘They shall not enter into my rest,’”
    How can it be that some did not enter into Gods rest? Were not all the Jews observing the sabbath? Did they not all go to the synagogue on the sabbath and refrain from work? They were so hung up on observing the sabbath that they wouldnt even ease the pain of their toothaches because they felt that it was 'work'

    The sabbath Paul spoke of was clearly something different to what the Jews had been practicing:
    although his works were finished from the founding of the world. 4 For in one place he has said of the seventh day as follows: “And God rested on the seventh day from all his works,” 5 and again in this place: “They shall not enter into my rest.” 6 Since, therefore, it remains for some to enter into it, and those to whom the good news was first declared did not enter in because of disobedience, 7 he again marks off a certain day by saying after so long a time in David’s [psalm] “Today”; just as it has been said above: “Today if YOU people listen to his own voice, do not harden YOUR hearts.” 8 For if Joshua had led them into a place of rest, [God] would not afterward have spoken of another day. 9 So there remains a sabbath resting for the people of God

    I would say that Jesus had entered into Gods rest...the sabbath Paul explained above.
    Think about this... how many days a week did Jesus work in his trade as a carpenter?

    If you really believe that Jesus observed the sabbath in the way you are saying we should observe the sabbath, then why didn't he work?

    Im sure if you think about it you would realise that Jesus was working every day... as a minister, preacher and teacher of Gods word. That is the sabbath that Paul was speaking about. 'Enter into Gods Rest' If you have entered into Gods rest, you dont step out for the majority of the time...you enter in and stay in. God did not permit the unfaithful Isrealites to enter into his rest, sure they were observing the sabbath, but the sabbath was only a very small glimps of what 'Gods Rest' really signified. God rested on the 7th day to allow his creation to take shape and for his purpose and will to become a reality...to enter into his rest really means to become a part of his purpose, will and reality.

    I certainly want to be a part of Gods purpose, I want to see its fulfillment and for that reason im not going to set aside one day a week to take note of all that God has planned...im going to take note of it every day. :)
     
  15. Duck

    Duck Well-Known Member

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    Truthfully, the only time I hear folks claim that part of the Mosaic laws were fulfilled, done away with, or repealed (or whatever) is usually after being questioned about their treatment of LGBT folks. When folks protest against equal treatment under civil law for LGBT folks (marriage equality, hate crimes protections, employment non-discrimination) by selectively quoting parts of Mosaic Law (various lines from Leviticus, Deuteronomy and others) proclaiming how icky gays are in the eyes of YHWH, it is inevitable that when questioned about why those same folks aren't out beating people for eating at Red Lobster, those laws (Mosaic laws regarding what is and isn't permissible to eat) are proclaimed to have been "fulfilled" or "done away with" by Christ's sacrifice. The laws dealing with executing the gays, those were part of the "moral" law instead of "purity" laws like eating kosher and segregating menstruating women. Lots of silence when you call folks on the fact that divorce is spoken poorly of (or outright outlawed with the same execution requirement cause of adultery) by a factor of at least 10, and probably closer to 100.
     
  16. Ronald

    Ronald Well-Known Member

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    To me Christians, who do not walk in the footsteps of Sha'ul as he Imitates Messiah, are all workers of iniquity/law-less-ness. (Christian followers of Christ)
    So this admonition to keep the commandments is so blatantly unchristian.
    Maybe a Messianic Gentile trying to fit in?:run:
    lol

    Shalom v'vrachot
     
  17. james2ko

    james2ko Well-Known Member

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    1. Sorry Pegg but that excuse doesn't fly. Paul worked by choice not necessity. He made it very clear he could have certainly asked for financial support from the congregants which would have given him more time to preach during the week. He simply chose not to so he could set a good example by preaching on the sabbath day and to not be a financial burden on the new church. (1Th 2:9; 2Th 3:8-9)

    2. Come on Pegg, that's like me saying the only time for your minister to preach at Kingdom Hall is on Sunday because that's where the JW's are that day. Not a very rational statement is it? Paul understood as a child and from his training as a Pharisee, one aspect of keeping the sabbath holy was to attend the synagogue which Christ also did. Paul and Christ didn't go to the synagogue because that's where the Jews simply gathered on the sabbath. They went because it was their custom (Act 17:2) to do so in order to keep the fourth commandment and for us to have an example to do the same!! (1 Jn 2:6)



    3. In these verses, the author of Hebrews was warning the Jews of his day not to harden their hearts like the Hebrews of Moses day. The context for Heb 4 actually begins in chapter 3. In Heb 3:8, the author recounts how God's anger toward the Hebrews prevented them from entering the "rest" of the promised land (vs 11).

    The Hebrews spent centuries in hard labor so naturally the promised land would have been a type of "rest". The generation led out of Egypt was disobedient and as a result, died in the wilderness (vs 17-18). Their children were the ones who entered the promised land under Joshua. So indeed some did not enter God's rest! (vs 19).

    4. Do you realize there are two different Greek words used for "rest" in those verses? The Greek word for "rest" in the verses 3-8 is "katapausis" simply means a 1) a putting to rest. 2) A resting place. In verse 9, the Greek word used is "sabbatismos" which literally means "a keeping of the sabbath".

    Paul's point to the Hebrews is that the children of Israel did not enter into God's rest due to their disobedience. The illustration is the Sabbath, for the breaking of which both Israel and Judah (as Ezekiel and Jeremiah show) went into captivity. What is so interesting here is that this is written to the first-century church, and it is introduced as an illustration of what they are to do with their lives.

    Think about this. If the Sabbath had been done away, the illustration was useless. This is one of the strongest proofs in the entire New Testament that the first-century church, the church of the apostles, were still keeping the Sabbath--and reinforcing its keeping by using it as an illustration of the very, Kingdom of God, the rest or "promised land" into which we will enter (Heb 4:1). Far be it from the apostles to say that it was done away! That is patently ridiculous. May God open your eyes to see!!

    5. He entered it after His resurrection. As we will, if we are obedient.(Heb 4:1)

    6. A minister's busiest day is on the Sabbath. As long as they are doing God's work (setting up the hall, feeding the sheep, counseling, annointing, etc) they are not breaking the commandment. Now if they decide to do some yard work on their neighbors home to earn a few extra bucks or even work on their own, during the sabbath, than they are breaking the command. Upon the start of Jesus ministry, His days as a carpenter ceased and His work as a minister began. Yet He still, as His custom was, (Luk 4:16) went to the synagogue every sabbath. Therefore setting an example for us to follow in his steps.

    7. God views a minister's work much different than the work of the average person.

    8. How can you possibly think this interpretation is correct when you misunderstood its context in point #3???

    9. Yes you are correct. We should take note of God everyday. As a matter of fact, we can go to church, pray and sing songs and worship Him all day long. But even God is aware of the fact this is not practical and we would be breaking the same Sabbath commandment by not working (at a job, running errands, chores, etc) the other six days as He also commands.

    At the very minimum, God wants us to keep holy or set apart at least one day a week and He was very specific as to which day. He did not leave it to chance or speculation or leave it up to us to decide. Holy means set apart for sacred use. We, as human beings, should not change, question, or manipulate any person, place, thing, or space of time God has made holy. Those who did in the past, paid a heavy price.

    In Exodus 3:5 God told Moses to remove his shoes for the place where he stood was holy ground. Moses did not question God. He simply took off his shoes. Moses understood it was God's presence which made the area holy. Similar to the ground around the burning bush, we are commanded, figuratively, to take our shoes off God's holy time--the seventh day--the time that points to Him and has His holy presence in it.
     
    #117 james2ko, Feb 28, 2011
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2011
  18. tripleog2010

    tripleog2010 Member

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    The problem with modern Christianity--if you can call it that--is the stupid teaching that the law is not for Christians. The problem is that whatever law God instituted is still applicable today and should be obeyed. People get these errant teachings from the alleged writings of Paul the Apostle who speaks partly as a Christian and partially as an apostate. His statement of being saved by faith only is completely impossible. How much faith does a man have without his good works. His good works is obedience to the commandments.
    I really struggled to get out of the mind control of false Christianity. I trust God, but I take the written word with a grain of salt. After writing a book, I realized just how easy it would be to twist it into my own agenda.
    As far as the Pauline Epistles go, either Paul was a heretic and a liar, or someone forged his letters to conform to the pagan version of "Christianity."

    Walter
     
  19. Ronald

    Ronald Well-Known Member

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    Much of the Pauline writings are forged, anyway some words. Like "And Agrippa said to Paul, "In a short time you think to make me a Christian!"
    This was before,
    and when he had found him, he brought him to Antioch. For a whole year they met with the church, and taught a large company of people; and in Antioch the disciples were for the first time called Christians.
    Copywriters had an agenda. Why do you think Paul has so much of the NT?
    Led Peter to write;
    And count the forbearance of our Lord as salvation. So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him,
    16 speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures.
    Filter all writings through the Torah/first five books of the bible, if it doesn't jive it is false.
    Paul was "Zealous for the Law.":yes:
     
  20. opuntia

    opuntia Religion is Law

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    If you mean all of the law, we would study the Ten Commandments. But if you mean the Mosaic Law, then we would study how the law applied to Temple worship. You failed to mention the Temple that existed in Jerusalem and the movable Tabernacle which the Levites took care of.

    The Law of Moses contained a lot of strictures about the Tabernacle and how the Israelites were to approach His holy edifice. Also, another aspect you need to address is that the Old Testament and the New Testament should be read as the Old Covenant and the New Covenant. Jesus brought forth a new covenant which Christians may enter into(Hebrews 8:1-13; Jeremiah 31:31-34). So which is the better covenant to enter into?
     
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