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Who says Christ did away with the Law??

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by compvett, Aug 9, 2010.

  1. james2ko

    james2ko Well-Known Member

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    I never said the Law of Moses was in full effect since creation. It was the Ten commandments and other laws. When Adam was created, he did not instinctively have knowledge of these laws and statutes. That knowledge had to be revealed to him. He had to be taught the difference between right and wrong--sin and righteousness. Similar to a father revealing right from wrong to his child: Paul confirms this concept:

    Rom 4:15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.

    Adam sinned. Sin is not imputed--does not apply--where there is no law. Death was initiated by Adam. (Remember, death is the penalty for sin, which is defined as the transgression of the law.) The only way Adam and his descendants could sin-break God’s spiritual law-is if God’s great spiritual law had been revealed to them!!

    Sorry Pegg, but that is not what the bible teaches. Notice what God said to the Israelites when they went out to gather manna on the sabbath. This was "before" the law was given at Sinai:

    Exo 16:28 "How long refuse you [Israel] to keep My commandments and My laws?”

    The Israelites were in Egyptian bondage for so long they had lost knowledge of God's law. At Sinai, God was merely reminding them of the laws which were already in force since creation. This is why God specifically stated in the fourth commandment, "remember the Sabbath..." what was there to remember if that was the first time they'd been given the law? This proves without a shadow of a doubt the fourth commandment was in effect before it was given at Sinai.

    No direct command from God about the Sabbath for these individuals but there is evidence it was in effect since creation. Notice how in Exo 31:17, God directly correlates the keeping of the weekly Sabbath for the Israelites to His rest in Gen 2:2-3.

    A human being's conscience is developed and influenced by outside stimuli. Such was the case with Adam who was taught the 10 commandments by God which in turn Adam taught his children and so on. Cain knew murder was wrong because Adam conveyed to him God's laws and not because Cain instinctively knew it was wrong.

    There is only one Seventh Day Sabbath per weekly cycle as indicated by the command. The term "Sabbaths" in various scriptures refers to not only the weekly Sabbath but the annual Sabbaths [Holy Days] as well (Lev 23). At times, the plural form of "sabbath" refers to the 52 weekly sabbaths that occur throughout the year. (Exo 31:13)



    If you think you can understand the Sabbath command better than those Christians who are actually keeping it, you are only deceiving yourself (Jas 1:22)

    You are under the false impression the sabbath commandment died with the OC and is no longer binding in the New. This is simply not true. In Exodus 31:12-17, God made a special covenant with Israel regarding His Sabbath. God explains that His purpose is that the Sabbath "sanctifies" those who keep it. They are set apart as belonging to--being owned by--God. Christians are told, "You are bought with a price; be not you the servants of men" (1 Cor. 7:23) and "You are bought with a price: therefore glorify God" (1 Cor. 6:20).

    Those who observe the Sabbath are signified as God’s people--and that He owns them. They are also publicly identified as people who keep the Commandments. Civil laws require people to keep several of the other Commandments (against stealing, murder, lying [perjury], etc.). Therefore, obedience to most or all of the other Commandments, which the world at least generally acknowledges in one form or another, does not identify one as a commandment-keeper! The Sabbath does! It is a sign that people are of God, since no human would ever think or choose to keep this law without it having been revealed by God.

    The sabbath was a perpetual covenant (Ex 31:16) to be obeyed for all time by physical Israel and by extension spiritual Israel [NT church] based on Gal 3:29 and the example of Christ and His disciples. The Ten commandments were considered and treated as separate and distinct from the "Law of Moses". It was not done away by the establishment of the NC and there is no passage in the NT commanding its abolishment. But there is every indication it is still binding! Christ irrefutably confirms this by disclosing to us His true NT church will be keeping the Sabbath at the end time--which is right now!!!!! (Matthew 24:20)
     
    #81 james2ko, Feb 20, 2011
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2011
  2. Hawkins

    Hawkins Well-Known Member

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    God's Law is perhaps as thick as 5 meters to record the Law details for the judgment of freewill (both angels and humans) on the Judgment Day.

    The point is, how many of you have ever read the laws of your country of state in order to be judged. Alternatively speaking, how many criminals have ever read any laws in detail before being judged?

    Basically, you don't need to read the law details 1) to understand law, 2) to be judged by law.

    Similarly, God's Law has 2 reflections, namely, the law in mind and the law in heart. Moses wrote the "in mind" reflection to the Jews. The "in heart" reflection is everyone's heart and soul.

    That said, "to love God and to love men" commandments are of the part of God's Law in both reflections (in mind and in heart). So people need to obey no matter they are Jews or Gentiles.

    As for Sabbath, it is argueably part of the Mosaic Law for the Jews. If however it is a Law for also the Gentiles, then it only means that the Gentiles can never keep this Law. Actually, it is because humans can no longer keep the Law set forth for them that Jesus Christ is needed. As a result, it is almost meaningless to debate if Sabbath is the part for Gentiles or not, as Gentiles can hardly keep it to God's sactisfaction.

    Law will not change as it will be used for the final judgment. That's actually why Jesus Christ and the New Covenant is needed. If Law can be changed, we don't need Jesus Christ, all we need to do is just to obey the changing law adaptive to us. However, God's Law is never compromised for men, men need to subject themselves to the Law instead of asking for the Law to be adaptive to them. The only alternative given is to take the Second Covenant as gift to believe in Jesus Christ, such that Law (no longer) has no effect on us.
     
  3. Beta

    Beta Well-Known Member

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    Hawkins ,
    friend , NO ONE can keep God's Law to HIS satisfaction whether Jew or Gentile , whether written in the human mind or human heart. Man has become wholly corrupt and needs to be renewed in mind and body. There are scriptures to tell us so Eph.4v22-24; Phil.3v21.
    And any 're-newing' is done only by the Spirit of God given to man humble and obedient enough to receive it Acts 5v32. :yes:
    There are pointers in scripture for us to meet God halfway to what he requires of man but in their simplicity are generally overlooked as we feel the need to wrestle with more advanced scriptures that tickle human intellect.
    Yet God is big on FOUNDATION (simple basics) without which we will not get off the ground.:)
     
  4. Ronald

    Ronald Well-Known Member

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    :confused: God presents the law to mankind, says for them to keep the law.:shrug:
    De 4:40"You shall therefore keep His statutes and His commandments which I command you today, that it may go well with you and with your children after you, and that you may prolong your days in the land which the LORD your God is giving you for all time."

    Yet, Christianity says only God can keep the law.:shrug:
    The Jews struggle to keep the law with no way to ever complete it.:yes:
    Is this God the same God that Christians have?:bow:

    God is a just God ! There is something wrong with Christian theology.:facepalm:

    Yeshua the second man Adam, created in the image of God, did keep the commandments.:)
    He died to restore man to the original state, holy, upright before God.
    He did not do this to allow man to become "Lawless".
    A lawless Christian will not enter the city by its gates. Keep the commandments.:angel2:
     
  5. Beta

    Beta Well-Known Member

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    I quite agree with you Ronald .
    Man is to keep the law of God which in the NT amounts to the 10 Commandments. But on the whole this is easier said than done as we can deduce from general christian ways.
    Let us just take the 4th Commandment for example because it is simple to understand = Remember the Sabbath (God's Sabbath is 7th day) and keep it holy. One would think that nobody from a young age would have a problem with that. And yet.........??? :facepalm:
     
  6. Pegg

    Pegg Jehovah our God is One

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    the basic point is that Gods laws are perfect standards which he does expect humans to keep. However, we are not perfect so he provides us with a concession. He knows we cannot keep his laws perfectly and he gave the laws to Isreal to show us that we cannot keep the laws perfectly....Paul says that the law was put in place to lead us to Christ because Christ was a perfect reflection of how the mosaic law should be applied. If we imitate Christ, we are living by all that God requires.

    Galatians 3:19 Why, then, the Law? It was added to make transgressions manifest, until the seed should arrive to whom the promise had been made; ...if a law had been given that was able to give life, righteousness would actually have been by means of law. 22 But the Scripture delivered up all things together to the custody of sin, that the promise resulting from faith toward Jesus Christ might be given to those exercising faith.
    23 However, before the faith arrived, we were being guarded under law...24 Consequently the Law has become our tutor leading to Christ, that we might be declared righteous due to faith. 25 But now that the faith has arrived, we are no longer under a tutor
    "

    our faith and adherence to Christ and his teachings will cause us to walk in Gods laws naturally. When we put on the 'mind of Christ' and apply his counsel in our life, we will be obeying Gods laws from the heart...this is why we should not need the mosaic law code to define our conduct....if the love of Christ defines our conduct, then we are fullfilling all that God requires of us. This is why we should not need the mosiac law....but if any christians feel they need it, then perhaps they need to ask if they are trully following Christ.
     
  7. Ronald

    Ronald Well-Known Member

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    Increddible! Surely you can't believe what you just typed! You sound like a man who fell out of a well into a tree.
    I believe in Jesus so I can do whatever I want to.
    Remember that 4,000 years passed before Jesus! what happens to those myriads of folks who could not claim Jesus died for my sins?
    Remember God is a Just God. Those folks striving to do the will of God under your theology are lost souls.:shrug:
     
  8. Pegg

    Pegg Jehovah our God is One

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    the many faithful people who lived before Jesus were acceptable to God without the mosaic law code, so why should we think that only those who follow the mosaic law are doing the right thing?


    the reason why the Apostles came to believe the law code was no longer needed was because they saw that God was pouring holy spirit on gentiles who had never practiced the mosaic law. Why would God do that if it was imperative to follow the mosaic law to have Gods approval?
    Cornelius, the first gentile believer to be baptized, received holy spirit in the Apostle Peters presence....Peter realized then that the mosiac law was not what God required. It was 'faith' that God was looking for....you dont need faith to follow the mosaic law.

    1Corinthians 7:19 Circumcision does not mean a thing, and uncircumcision means not a thing, but observance of God’s commandments [does]. 20 In whatever state each one was called, let him remain in it

    I think Pauls words above show that we do not 'need' to follow mosaic law. It is clear that those who have never practiced the law were not required to make a start of practicing it and it would be a mistake to believe that the mosaic laws are a way to gain Gods favor. If God calls you in, you are permitted in and its not because you were following the mosaic law.
     
    #88 Pegg, Feb 25, 2011
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2011
  9. james2ko

    james2ko Well-Known Member

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    Let's take a closer look, Pegg. The true context of Galatians 3 points to the "works of the law" in contrast to the faith of Christ. This is established in Galatians 2:16 and in Galatians 3:2, 5 and 10. The word translated "works" is derived from the Greek term ergon, meaning the law of works or sacrificial rituals, while "law" is derived from nomos, which can mean the Law of Moses or a principle of law. This term for "law" is established by the context.

    The apostle Paul's letter to the Galatians addressed the matter of false Jewish converts trying to impose physical rituals upon the Gentile converts in Galatia. The context of "law" in Galatians 3:19 and 3:24 points to the "law of works" ("nomos ergon"). The Ten Commandments were never part of the law of rituals

    The next part of verse 19 shows that "It [the law of works] was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made…" The sacrificial law was not added until months after the Ten Commandments had been given!

    Notice Jeremiah 7:22-23: "For I did not speak to your fathers, or command them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices. 23 But this is what I commanded them, saying, 'Obey My voice, and I will be your God, and you shall be My people. And walk in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well with you.'

    Then, in verse 24: "Yet they did not obey or incline their ear, but followed the counsels and the dictates of their evil hearts, and went backward and not forward."

    This verse shows that the law of works--the "schoolmaster" (Gal. 3:24)--was added because of transgressions. These sacrifices impressed upon Israel the consequences of sin. Sacrifices taught the habit of obedience and pointed forward to the ultimate sacrifice of Christ. In no way do these verses do away with the 4th commandment, which we've discussed earlier was never part of the sacrificial laws!
     
  10. Ronald

    Ronald Well-Known Member

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    So you are free to eat foods sacrificed to idols.?
    An idol is nothing.
     
  11. Pegg

    Pegg Jehovah our God is One

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    have you ever lit a match on a sabbath? When you cook your dinner, is it not on a gas stove? And do you refrain from picking up sticks to collect for firewood on a sabbath?


    Do you honestly believe that God is offended by any of the above?
     
  12. Pegg

    Pegg Jehovah our God is One

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    can you define what you consider to be a food sacrificed to an idol?
     
  13. Ronald

    Ronald Well-Known Member

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    Food offering to an idol.
     
  14. Pegg

    Pegg Jehovah our God is One

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    I can imagine what it was back in the first century, but what would be the equivalent in todays terms?
     
  15. Ronald

    Ronald Well-Known Member

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    So you do not believe God made those rulings?
    But that was before Christ, the MEAN OLD GOD!
    Jesus is the God of LOVE.

    What about the 4,000 years without a Messiah?
    God fooling with man kind?

    It's always been keep the commandments.
     
  16. Ronald

    Ronald Well-Known Member

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    Okay, your in the outback, your first inhabitants is sitting down to dinner, he asks you to join him, you accept his offer. He calls upon a god and offers up the food to this god. Do you eat it?:shrug:
     
  17. Pegg

    Pegg Jehovah our God is One

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    i personally woudnt because the food has become a religious offering to a foreign god


    But that situation isn't likely to occur...so can you think of other foods that are more readily available that might be considered as foods sacrificed to idols? I can think of a few.
     
  18. Pegg

    Pegg Jehovah our God is One

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    Abraham wasnt given those laws, nor were those laws given to Job, Enoch, Joseph, Isaac, Jacob, Noah....

    If God was so concerned about keeping sabbath laws as set out in the mosaic law, why did he not give them to these faithful men?
     
  19. Ronald

    Ronald Well-Known Member

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    Welcome to Pauls Deli. :thud:

    Are you unaware of the book of Genesis. Wherein God blessed the sevewnth day and made it holy.
    Cain and Abel bringing offerings to God.
    The seventh day being observed from earliest times til it was outlawed by Rome.
    I seem to recall a priest , the King of Salem, I suppose he didn't know he was the blueprint for Jesus.
    "Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments."
    Oh! I recall JW say the law was in effect untill his death. :sleep:

    Jesus said the law and the prophets will remain until all is accomplished.
    Til every man Knows the Lord. That is not today. :)
     
  20. Pegg

    Pegg Jehovah our God is One

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    well, we may not agree on the detail, but I can assure you that there is a sabbath for Christians...its just different to the mosaic law sabbath
     
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