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Who says Christ did away with the Law??

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by compvett, Aug 9, 2010.

  1. esmith

    esmith Veteran Member

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    One would have to believe that some of the views of Marcion found there way into the New Testament. It is becoming evident that some of these beliefs are becoming more pronounced today in some Christians (from various thoughts submitted by members of this forum).
     
    #61 esmith, Feb 16, 2011
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2011
  2. smokydot

    smokydot Well-Known Member

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    The God of the OT is the same as the God of the NT.

    Your are evidently unfamiliar with the NT letter to the Hebrews.
     
  3. esmith

    esmith Veteran Member

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    Marcion had a positive effect on the development of orthodox Christians. He led other Christians to stress monotheism and the importance of establishing a canon of Scriptures. In many ways Marcion and his teachings live on today among Christians who have never heard his name. Many Christians continue to contrast the Old Testament God of wrath and the New Testament God of mercy, many also think that the law of Moses is for the Jews, not Christians and, thus, relegate the Old Testament to a secondary class.

    Now smokey, you can not dispute the above. You may disagree with it and even to the point of saying it is heretical but facts are facts.
     
  4. Pegg

    Pegg Jehovah our God is One

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    i agree with you, but the 'all has been fulfilled' only relates to the priesthood though...not to everything yet. There are still many aspects of the Messiah's reign awaiting fulfillment,

    I can understand now why some object to this idea that Christ fulfilled the law. He did fulfilled that aspect of the priesthood, but when it is said simply as 'Christ fulfilled everything' it implies that all the Messianic prophecies must have also been fulfilled.
     
  5. james2ko

    james2ko Well-Known Member

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    I agree. But this begs the question, if the moral laws are still in effect, which btw I believe they are, why aren't the majority of christians obeying the fourth commandment?
     
  6. Pegg

    Pegg Jehovah our God is One

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    perhaps because they understand what Paul meant when he said Colossians 2:16 Therefore let no man judge YOU in eating and drinking or in respect of a festival or of an observance of the new moon or of a sabbath; 17 for those things are a shadow of the things to come, but the reality belongs to the Christ


    We know Paul had in mind the 10 commandments because he wrote: “Now we have been discharged from the Law....Really I would not have come to know sin if it had not been for the Law; and, for example, I would not have known covetousness if the Law had not said: ‘You must not covet.’” this is the 10th commandment...so it stands to reason that the 10 commandments are not binding. And this is rightly so in harmony with the 'new covenant'...for it to be written on the heart, it must stem from the heart. A person who obeys Gods laws, even though they are not binding, shows the law to be written on their heart and in this way they prove themselves to be Abraham offspring.
     
  7. james2ko

    james2ko Well-Known Member

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    This scripture is quoted by nearly everyone in an attempt to prove that Paul did away with the Sabbath keeping, Holy Day observance, clean and unclean meats. The truth of the matter is the real meaning of these verses is that Christians should not let people arbitrarily judge their conduct. Only the Church (Col. 1:18)-"the body of Christ" (2:17)-can do this. Notice that the word "is" is italicized. This means that it was not in the original Greek text. By adding it, translators blurred the true meaning of this passage.

    The phrase "in meat, or in drink" (vs. 16), translated from the Greek phrase en broosei ay en posei, meaning "in eating or in drinking." Some ascetics in Colosse were teaching that self-denial and will-worship (vs. 20-22) were God's Way. (See Galatians 4:9-10)

    Notice that the first phrase in verse 17 uses the present tense in reference to the Sabbath, Holy Days, etc. It says, in effect, "these days are [not were] a [fore]shadow of things to come." true Christians know that the Sabbath and Holy Days picture the Plan of God, which certainly involves many "things to come." Verse 18 is a final warning to Christians not to let anyone trick them about these important issues-because it is only the Church that was to judge them (vs. 17, end).

    The Colossians were Gentiles. They had never known God's Way, and had not previously kept His Sabbaths. In no way do these scriptures do away with God's Laws or Sabbaths which Paul himself kept! The truth is the Colossians were being criticized by unconverted Gentiles because they were keeping the Sabbath and Holy Days!
     
  8. Hawkins

    Hawkins Well-Known Member

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    Forget about what people said, just listen to what Jesus Christ Himself said,

    For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
     
  9. smokydot

    smokydot Well-Known Member

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    It also relates to the Sinaitic covenant.
     
  10. smokydot

    smokydot Well-Known Member

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    The only Christian you need to be concerned about is you. Do you obey it?
     
  11. james2ko

    james2ko Well-Known Member

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    Lets see, I lost one job..took a significant pay cut in another..endure constant ridicule..some members of my family have disowned me for observing it. Now enough about me. Back to my question, why aren't Christians imitating the example Jesus, His disciples, and Paul set by obeying the fourth commandment ? (1 Cor 1:11)
     
  12. smokydot

    smokydot Well-Known Member

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    All Christians are sinners, just like everyone else, except they are repentant sinners.

    You aren't responsible for what other Christians do. Jesus is in charge of his church, trust him to shepherd it.
     
  13. james2ko

    james2ko Well-Known Member

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    So you admit those who insist on keeping Sunday vs the 7th day Sabbath are breaking God's law [sinning] (1 John 3:4). When a sin has been exposed, a faithful and obedient Christian should humbly take the necessary steps to repent and not repeat it. Repent means to "change one's mind". Simply asking God for forgiveness with no intention of changing will be a mistake, as evidenced by the same behavior displayed by the Israelites just before their exile.

    But I am responsible for lovingly warning my fellow brothers and sisters to do the right thing:

    Heb 3:13 You must warn each other every day, while it is still "today," so that none of you will be deceived by sin and hardened against God. NLT

    Isa 58:1 "Shout with the voice of a trumpet blast. Shout aloud! Don't be timid. Tell my people Israel of their sins! ​
     
    #73 james2ko, Feb 18, 2011
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2011
  14. Beta

    Beta Well-Known Member

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    Do traditional christians actually KNOW what to repent of ? or what repentance means ?
    Basically it means to sincerely regret doing wrong against God , of going against His Word 1Joh.3v4. You agree ? :)
    You say Jesus is in charge of his church - and so he is . But would that be a church wo breaks God's Commandments . Honestly now SD ? Do any of the trad churches keep the Com's of God ? You can tell by the 4th if they do or don't . It is a biblical requirement not a personal choice.Rev.12v17 verifies.:yes:
     
  15. smokydot

    smokydot Well-Known Member

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    Traditional Catholics think it means penance.
    Yes
    Right, it is a commandment, but what commandments others keep and do not keep is not our responsiblity, concern, or business.
     
  16. Pegg

    Pegg Jehovah our God is One

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    if you take note of the context of Pauls letter, it is with regard to new gentile christians and their relation to the mosaic laws. Paul was informing gentile christians that they had no need to adhere to those laws. 'let no man judge you' means no one including other christians. Paul repeated this counsel to the Roman congregation
    Romans 14:2 One [man] has faith to eat everything, but the [man] who is weak eats vegetables. 3 Let the one eating not look down on the one not eating, and let the one not eating not judge the one eating, for God has welcomed that one. 4 Who are you to judge the house servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls

    James, if you want to observe the sabbath then by all means you can observe it. But you cannot judge those who do not observe it as disobedient or faithless or whatever your complaint is against them. Christians need only observe the express commands as laid down by the apostles...and sabbath keeping is not one of them. Here they are as a reminder:
    Acts 15:19-20 Hence my decision is not to trouble those from the nations who are turning to God, 20 but to write them to abstain from things polluted by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood

    that is actually quite incorrect. The situation was that some jewish christians were telling the new gentile christians that they had to observe the mosaic laws. The issue was addressed by the Apostles in the Jerusalem congregation and the letters of Paul that went out to the new congregations, including colossians, were directly addressing the issue. It wasnt the people in the world who were criticizing them, it was jewish christians.

    Acts 15:1-11
    And certain men came down from Ju‧de′a and began to teach the brothers: “Unless YOU get circumcised according to the custom of Moses, YOU cannot be saved.” 2 But when there had occurred no little dissension and disputing by Paul and Bar′na‧bas with them, they arranged for Paul and Bar′na‧bas and some others of them to go up to the apostles and older men in Jerusalem regarding this dispute... 4 On arriving in Jerusalem they were kindly received by the congregation and the apostles and the older men, and they recounted the many things God had done by means of them. 5 Yet, some of those of the sect of the Pharisees that had believed rose up from their seats and said: “It is necessary to circumcise them and charge them to observe the law of Moses.” 6 And the apostles and the older men gathered together to see about this affair.

    The conclusion that was reached by the Apostles and older men in Jerusalem was that if the Gentiles were being saved by their faith, and not by their adherence to the Mosaic laws, then so could the jewish christians be saved in the same way:

    7 Peter rose and said to them: “Men, brothers, YOU well know that from early days God made the choice among YOU that through my mouth people of the nations should hear the word of the good news and believe; 8 and God, who knows the heart, bore witness by giving them the holy spirit, just as he did to us also. 9 And he made no distinction at all between us and them, but purified their hearts by faith. 10 Now, therefore, why are YOU making a test of God by imposing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke that neither our forefathers nor we were capable of bearing? 11 On the contrary, we trust to get saved through the undeserved kindness of the Lord Jesus in the same way as those people also.

    Then James, the brother of Jesus also rose and gave his opinion on the matter, he said that the gentile were being added from among the nations and the only mosaic law requirements for them is that they abstain from idols, fornication, strangled foods and blood:
    13 After they quit speaking, James answered, saying: “Men, brothers, hear me. 14 Sym′e‧on has related thoroughly how God for the first time turned his attention to the nations to take out of them a people for his name. 15 And with this the words of the Prophets agree, just as it is written, 16 ‘After these things I shall return and rebuild the booth of David that is fallen down; and I shall rebuild its ruins and erect it again, 17 in order that those who remain of the men may earnestly seek Jehovah, together with people of all the nations, people who are called by my name, says Jehovah, who is doing these things, 18 known from of old.’ 19 Hence my decision is not to trouble those from the nations who are turning to God, 20 but to write them to abstain from things polluted by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood.

    After this decision was reached, the apostles wrote a letter for Paul and Baranabas to take to the many new congregations and give them the direction as was unanimously decided upon. This is the contents of the letter that was delivered to the gentile congregations:

    “The apostles and the older men, brothers, to those brothers in Antioch and Syria and Ci‧li′cia who are from the nations: Greetings! 24 Since we have heard that some from among us have caused YOU trouble with speeches, trying to subvert YOUR souls, although we did not give them any instructions, 25 we have come to a unanimous accord and have favored choosing men to send to YOU together with our loved ones, Bar′na‧bas and Paul, 26 men that have delivered up their souls for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 We are therefore dispatching Judas and Silas, that they also may report the same things by word. 28 For the holy spirit and we ourselves have favored adding no further burden to YOU, except these necessary things, 29 to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication. If YOU carefully keep yourselves from these things, YOU will prosper."

    It is the Apostles who determined that sabbath keeping was not a requirement for christians. They came to this decision because they saw that God was bringing in gentiles who had never practiced the mosaic laws....yet God was granting them salvation and pouring his holy spirit on them. This proved to the Apostles that obedience to the mosaic law was not something God required of people. But like I said, if YOU want to observe the sabbath, then im sure there would be not problem with you doing that...just remember Jesus words "with what judgment you are judging, you will be judged"
     
    #76 Pegg, Feb 19, 2011
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2011
  17. james2ko

    james2ko Well-Known Member

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    Simple logic would render this premise to be false. Scripture indicates Paul himself observed the Sabbath. It would be completely illogical for him to tell the Colossians not to observe the day he himself was keeping!!!

    Second, God's spiritual laws and statues which include the Ten Commandments, were not done away with the elimination of the Old Covenant because they were never part of it. They were instituted at creation along with the Sabbath and passed down from generation to generation. They are set apart as Holy, just and good (Rom 7:12,14) and they stand forever (Psa 111:7-8).

    These are the same commandments, laws, statutes Noah kept. Why do you think God called Noah a "just man, perfect in his generations." (Gen 9:6) What was Noah doing that made him so just? Why did God say of Abraham, " because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws."? (Gen 26:5) What were the laws, statutes,and commandments Abraham was keeping if the Mosaic Law had not yet been created?

    This proves without a shadow of a doubt, the Ten Commandments and many of God's Laws existed before the Old Covenant, therefore they could not be abolished when it ceased to exist. The Old Covenant could not destroy what it did not bring into force. It was merely an agreement to keep these laws which were already in force!



    With the above said, let's examine Col 2:16-17 to extract its true meaning:

    Col 2:16-17 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the body is of Christ. ​

    In the KJV version and other versions, the verb "is" is italicized which indicates it was not in the original Greek:

    Which 3739 (Hos) oèv hos are 2076 (Esti) eiÎmið es-tee' a shadow 4639 (Skia) skia/ skee'-ah of things to come 3195 (Mello) meÑllw mel'-lo but 1161 (De) deÑ deh the body 4983 (Soma) swÜma so'-mah [is] of Christ 5547 (Christos) Xristo/v khris-tos'

    If it was correctly translated, verse 17 should read:

    "Which are a shadow of things to come but the body of Christ!"​

    If we read it in context with verse 16, the exegesis becomes very clear. Here's an accurate paraphrase: "Don't let others judge you on what you should eat, drink, and which sabbaths and festivals you should keep, which are a shadow of things to come [holy days picture God's plan of salvation] but only allow the body of Christ [church] to judge you on how to observe these things."

    It is important to examine the text for precisely what it does and does not say. Verses 1 to 4 identify the overall subject in context as vegetarianism—not Sabbath-keeping or which day one selects for rest or worship. (Also see Hebrews 4:9) Verse 5 reveals that some were apparently choosing different days to fast or not to fast.

    It concludes by instructing Christians to decide for themselves, by themselves--instead of, as the RSV says, getting into "disputes over opinions" (vs. 1, latter part). God leaves some decisions in the hands of people—how long to pray, size of offerings, whether to have two, three or four children, etc.

    The subject of the Sabbath is entirely different, however. As I previously mentioned, God commanded the Sabbath, beginning in the book of Genesis. Ancient Israel kept it. Christ kept it. Paul kept it. The early New Testament Church kept it and true Christians observe it today. God never allows people to decide what to obey, He only gives them the freedom to choose to obey or disobey His commands (Deut. 30:19-20).

    The only one judging Christians right now is God (1 Pet 4:17). I'm merely attempting to warn as He commands. (Heb 3:13; Isa 58:1)

    Really??

    Acts 13:14-15, 42-44 contains an account of Paul and Barnabas teaching Jews on the Sabbath. Notice in vs 42 how the Gentiles besought that Paul and Barnabas teach them on the next Sabbath. What a perfect opportunity for Paul to inform them that the Sabbath is done away and he could teach them the next day--Sunday. Instead, he made the Gentiles wait until the following sabbath!! (vs 44). Clear proof the sabbath was still in effect.

    Next let's examine Acts 16:12-15, an account of Paul and Silas observing the Sabbath in Philippi. Careful reading of the account shows that it was a custom for people to meet on a river bank each Sabbath. Obviously, Paul and those with him kept the Sabbath each week. This required them to find where Sabbath assembly regularly took place locally.

    The next account, Acts 18:1-11, is remarkable. It reveals that Paul worked during the week and kept the Sabbath—"every" Sabbath. Eighteen months is equivalent to 78 weekly Sabbaths on which Paul taught God’s Word!

    Finally, notice that Acts 17:2 states that Paul, when in Thessalonica, "... as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the Scriptures." This was also a Gentile city.

    The pattern is clear. Paul kept the Sabbath, meeting with and teaching brethren everywhere he went. Now consider what he instructed the Gentile Corinthians: “Be you followers of me, even as I also am of Christ” (1 Cor. 11:1).

    So the sabbath commandment is burdensome?

    "For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. " (1 Jn 5:3) ​

    "Keep the Sabbath day holy. Don't pursue your own interests on that day, but enjoy the Sabbath and speak of it with delight as the LORD's holy day. Honor the Sabbath in everything you do on that day, and don't follow your own desires or talk idly. (Isa 58:13)



    The Law of Moses in question involved "customs". Read the bold statement above again. Notice the Jews were also falsely accusing Paul, saying that he taught Jews living abroad "not to circumcise their children or observe the customs"! (Acts 21:21). The controversy in the early Church never involved doing away with the Ten Commandments, it involved only the ceremonial additions to the original civil law of Moses!!

    The Patriarchs, Prophets, Jesus Christ, and the Apostles set the example and kept the Sabbath. All people in the future kingdom will keep the Sabbath (Isa 66:23). So God, who commanded the Sabbath be kept forever, expects New Covenant Christians to keep it today (Heb 4:4,9) and I dare say those who do not will be very disappointed at the judgment.
     
  18. Pegg

    Pegg Jehovah our God is One

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    Noah and Abraham had faith...thats why they found favor with God. We do have a God given conscience that dictates right and wrong...these men lived in harmony with their conscience according to their faith in God.

    And if you really believe that the mosaic laws were what they were obeying, then you'd be mistaken. Abraham married his half sister...something the mosaic law forbade.


    the Sabbath day under the mosaic law was a sign of the covenant between God and Isreal...even you acknowledge that a new covenant has been brought into effect, so why would you think that christians must cling to the old?

    There was no sabbath observance before Moses gave the law to the isrealites...Abraham, Noah and others had no sabbath law from God - they only had their faith and their God given conscience. An example is that of young Joseph after he was sold into Egypt. He had no laws from God yet he knew that adultery was a sin against God...when Potiphers wife tried to seduce him he said "how can i commit this badness against God?" How did he know adultery was bad? It was in his conscience.


    thats a good and noble thing to do, so long as you understand what you are preaching. Im not convinced you fully understand the sabbath, for instance, can you explain why there are two Sabbaths mentioned in the bible? The first sabbath is the mosaic law sabbath requiring the Isrealites to spend one day a week to honor God....what is the other sabbath and how do christians observe it?
     
  19. simon kole

    simon kole Member

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    what is the other sabbath?
     
  20. Pegg

    Pegg Jehovah our God is One

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    its the real one ;)

    another clue is that it was the one that God did not allow the isrealites to enter into
     
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