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Who says Christ did away with the Law??

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by compvett, Aug 9, 2010.

  1. compvett

    compvett Member

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    It is amazing to me that people want to find reasons NOT to apply the commands of God to their lives! What is wrong with that picture. Christ was the Perfect sacrifice and he did not break not even 1 command. We say we want to be Christ-like.....so what did Christ do.... he never broke a command of God. Can we do that?? I don't believe so...should we try and live a life according to scripture?? YES! I just give it my best and try to study the Bible and as I see commands that I am falling short on, then I REPENT and try not to fall short again in that area.

    If you are going to talk the talk then you better at least TRY to walk the walk! And I don't judge anyone who may not be at the level that I am at..Because GUESS WHAT...just because I may obey a few more commands then the next guy, I don't think that makes me any better, but in my view it shows God that I really do care about what he says in his Holy Scriptures.

    And by the way all you out there that think these commands were for Jews only and now Christians have some other Religion of some sort....Who do you think Christ was?? He was Hebrew and lived according to the very commands you say he does away with. Open your eyes people!! Read the scriptures and see for yourself.
     
  2. compvett

    compvett Member

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    He died so we won't have to in the end. He took our sins upon him so we wouldn't be subject to the punishment of the law. You know the death penalty that some sins required if you broke them. See that is the curse of the law, that is the burden, you broke certain commandments and it required death. He did away with that ultimate death penalty that we would have had to endure had he not come and give his life for us....and yes he was the PERFECT sacrifice. So why do away with something that guides us and shows us what sin is??? That is crazy! So he comes to get rid of what keeps us out of trouble???
     
  3. Terrywoodenpic

    Terrywoodenpic Oldest Heretic

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    Jesus was very sparing with commandments.

    To love God and to love others was the one he reinforced, and the source of all the others.
    He also said we should be Baptised.
    And that we should observe communion when we come together in memory of him. ( the last supper)

    he never thought it appropriate to make the same demands about the Jewish Law.

    Works for me.....
     
  4. compvett

    compvett Member

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    Jewish law?? So I guess the 10 commandments are just for Jews?? Cmom....How about Matthew 5 where Christ specifically speaks of the law. He says he did not come to abolish these laws he came to fullfill them. He then goes on to say WHOEVER (not just jews) does not follow these laws and does not teach them to others will be called least in the Kingdom, but WHOEVER teaches these commands and does these commands will be call great in the Kingdom.

    How about when Paul says that there is only one God..not one for Jews and not one for Gentiles. Should we then nullify this law?? No rather we uphold the law! See unless you search out scripture for yourself and not depend on what the majority says (which in most cases is not correct) then you are subject to false teaching. May not be intentional but it happens.
     
  5. Terrywoodenpic

    Terrywoodenpic Oldest Heretic

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    I am happy to go along with the ten commandments however Jesus did reduce them to two as having special importance for his listeners, and said that the others would follow from those. This at the same time did not limit them to just ten.

    I never supposed for one minute that Jesus taught that Jews should abandon the law. However neither did he ever extend them to the gentiles.

    in one important way gentiles differ from Jews, in that they never made Bargains or contracts with God. Jews did, and are bound by the resulting laws of Moses. These never were universal Laws of God.
     
  6. compvett

    compvett Member

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    I can agree with you that there is not a limit to just 10 Commands and I do agree he put emphasis on 2 about loving God and loving your neighbor. But you haven't addressed Matthew 5 when Christ specifically talked about the law and why all should obey it.
    And what bargain are you talking about that the Jews made with God?? Also please address Paul when he says we don't abolish the law rather we uphold it. He is talking to all believers post Christ. And all this is not a salvation issue but it speaks to the level of commitment one is prepared to devote to God. In return it will result in blessings!!
     
  7. Darkness

    Darkness Psychoanalyst/Marxist

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    The one simple truth we are all forgetting is that what we call the Bible is a collection of writings by different authors. All of the books in the New Testament (for example) carry the same basic message, but have different opinions in them. Thus, a gospel such as Saint Matthew preaches that we should follow the laws of the Tanakh (Old Testament), but Saint Paul preaches that the Old Law is abolished.
     
  8. Terrywoodenpic

    Terrywoodenpic Oldest Heretic

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    Paul was the person who argued the case that Gentiles were not bound by the law.
    and got the agreement of James in Jerusalem.
    Many of his writings would appear to be contradictory. However He was an important missionary for the early church, but he did tend to blend his words to help the understanding of those he was speaking to... and said as much.
     
  9. compvett

    compvett Member

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    Until somebody addresses Matthew 5:17-19 and 3:31 I am done talking here. God Bless you all and see you in the Kingdom! And the definition of ABOLISH-TO DESTROY COMPLETELY. You all know good and well Christ did not COMPLETELY DESTROY GOD'S LAW.
     
  10. Darkness

    Darkness Psychoanalyst/Marxist

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    Christ essentially liberalised/cerebralised Judaism and Saint Paul founded a new religion. Saint Paul sought to break Christianity from it's Jewish roots, and thus abolished all of the peculiarities of the Jewish religion (such as circumcision and the food prohibitions), which allow his message to appeal to a larger audience. I know you don't want to hear this, but that is basic history. Thus, there is no need to attempt a harmonisation of the different writer's messages.
     
  11. compvett

    compvett Member

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    Where do you get this stuff from. Are you not paying attention to Scripture?? Paul absolutely did not start a new Religion. In Romans he specifically said we must NOT NULLIFY THE LAW BUT UPHOLD IT....you don't understand that?? Does that sound like he is wanting to break away from the Jewish roots?? Christ was Jewish!! You are very very confused. Read your Bible.
     
  12. Terrywoodenpic

    Terrywoodenpic Oldest Heretic

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    Paul was responsible for codifying much of the new Christian religion and founded many churches among the Gentiles.
    Had it not been for Paul and a few others like Mary Magdalene, Christianity would most likely have remained a small Jewish sect.
    When he ws speaking as a Jew he upheld the Jewish law for Jews. When he was speaking to the gentiles he did not. He clearly saw a difference between Jew and gentile. That you seem unable to do so, is not Paul's problem.
     
  13. walmul

    walmul Member

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    Hi Compvett.

    The old law or ten commandments is not done away with, the two new commandments if applied simply mean that should you love your neighbour like you love yourself, you will if you can live in that way not do any harm to any one and in succeeding will automatically live according to the ten commandments, the total law however as stated in the four canonical books is something else, and mostly adhered to by the original Jews. That is quite a feat to adhere to, you will probably not have time to go the toilet should you try to obey every single one of those laws.:)

    walmul.
     
  14. dmgdnooc

    dmgdnooc Active Member

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    Matthew 5.17-19 has been addressed, but you have not noticed (and there is no 3.31).
    Jesus was speaking to Jews about the Law under which they live.
    The Law under which Jews live is not, has never been, applicable to the Gentiles.
    Being. as it is, an expression of the covenant betwen God and Israel it is not for non-Jews.
    The Law separated Jew from Gentile, made Israel a peculiar people set apart from the rest of the nations.
     
    Paul, to the Gentile Colossians, warns them against the Judaisers (Jewish brethren who were urging them to observe the Law).
    He acknowledges that the arguments for observing the Law are enticing and beguiling, but warns them not to be spoilt by the philosophies and vain deceits of the propositions that were being made, so persuasively, to them.
    The Colossians had been circumcised (so Paul argues) with a circumcision not made with hands and were to trust in the 'works' of God that had manifested in them through the risen Jesus.
    God had erased the handwriting of ordinances (the Law) that was against them and had always been contrary to them.
    They could, therefore, no longer be judged in respect of the ordinances; which are shadows of the fullness of Christ; the wall of separation had been torn down at the cross.
     
    This was the 'mystery which had been hid', the 'mystery of His will', that without works, without the Law, God would call the Gentiles (who had been no people) to be His people and partakers, with the Jews, of the promises made to the Patriarchs.
     
    God called the Gentiles to be made perfect in Christ; not to become Jewish converts, or pseudo-Jews picking about the edges of the Law, but to be saved Gentiles; and thereby provoke the Jews to jealousy.
     
    It is the 'why' of the Law that Gentiles must come to an understanding of not the 'how'.
    It is not God's will that Gentiles keep the Law, on the contrary He wills that they do not, because pseudo-Jews inspire amusement, condescension or contempt in a Jew but not the jealousy that God requires of them.
     
    It seems to me that you are not addressing the scriptural arguments that have been made.
    So, I'll ask a few questions instead.
    Why do Jewish Christians still have to keep the Law, yet Gentile Christians are under no compulsion to do so?
    Why, when speaking to Gentiles, does Paul repeatedly and firmly warn of the seductive attraction of Law keeping?
    Why does he go to such lengths to discourage Law keeping by the Gentiles?

     
  15. no-body

    no-body Well-Known Member

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    That's some fine mental gymnastics there. You can still safely hate homosexuals while keeping your wiener from getting massacred and eating bacon and shell fish. Convenient.
     
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  16. compvett

    compvett Member

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    I meant to say Romans 3:31..I would like to hear what excuse you have for this Scripture...(respectfully). Tell me about that one and I will get back to you shortly on your last 3 questions to me. Thanks!
     
  17. compvett

    compvett Member

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    So if the laws outside of the 10 commandments don't apply...can we have sexual relations with our close relatives, partake in homosexual activity, have sexual relations with animals, eat dogs, cats, or whatever we feel like eating?? How about sacrificing our children, it says not to do that..I am not saying that we are BOUND to keep the entire law. What I am saying is that it is there for us for a reason. I only study the Bible, including the Old Testament and attempt to adhere to what it says because I want to please God. What is wrong with that?? There are lots of things in the law that do apply to us that are outside of the 10 commandments and there are many things that don't apply to us. To say Christ completely destroyed the Old Testament laws is just ridiculous. That would mean even the 10 commandments don't apply in some people's eyes. GOD SAID IF YOU LOVE ME YOU WILL KEEP MY COMMMANDS. That's all I am trying to do and so should others. Read Matthew 5:17-19 and Romans 3:31.
     
  18. dmgdnooc

    dmgdnooc Active Member

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    You're kidding me, right?
    This, from Romans, is addressed to Jewish members of the Roman church.
    2.17 '.... thou art called a Jew, and restest in the Law, and makest thy boast of God'
    And Paul specifically denies your proposition.
    3.19 '.... we know that what things soever the Law saith, it saith to them who are under the Law ....'
    And, I dealt, in part, with this passage in my first post, and others have mentioned it also.
     
    Jewish converts to Christianity are obliged to continue in their observance of the Law, as the Apostles (including Paul) did. See Acts 21.18-26
     
    Romans 3.31 is not an island, it is part of a long discourse (he is still addressing 'them that know the Law' in 7.1) and the discourse, though it shifts emphasis, does not appear to be concluded until the 'amen' of 11.36.
     
    In the discourse Paul addresses the states of Jewish Christians, Jews, Gentile Christians and Gentiles; and a reader needs to discern who (or what combination of whos) is the subject at any particular point in the discourse.
     
    Often, in the Bible, a Gentile must just shut his/her mouth and listen to what is being said to other people.
    You have yet to understand that; you still think it is all addressed to you personally, I hope that you get over that notion soon.
    I admit that it took some time for that fact to sink into my reading.
     
    Do you read alone or do you have a mentor or study group that you can discuss the scriptures with?
    I ask only out of a concern for someone who appears to have a genuine desire to honour God, but is clearly confused as to how that should be achieved.

     
  19. compvett

    compvett Member

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    Romans was written specifically to Christians in Rome and ALL BELIEVERS EVERYWHERE! That my friend is a fact. The Roman church did consist of many Jews but there were also a GREAT number of Gentiles as well. But I think you are missing my point here. Paul himself lived in obedience to the law, Christ lived in obedience to the law. The problem they were having was that "some" Jews were not putting their faith in Christ. Some rejected him completely. Some were teaching the law was more important to follow versus accepting Christ.
    The law without Christ is useless!! What good is it to follow the law and then reject Christ??? Now, scripture tells us through Christ, Jew and Gentile are now 1 new man. There are no separate laws for Jews who accept Christ and for Gentiles who accept Christ. What sense would that make?? What if you were part Jewish and part whatever else (Italian, Spanish, French, etc...). So what you are saying makes no sense. Verses 27-31 in Romans Clears that up for anyone who wants to try and understand it. 1GOD ONLY of Jews and Gentiles....we are all justified by faith, YES!! But does that mean ABOLISH (completely destroy) the law???? By Paul's own words..."Not at all! Rather we uphold the law"

    Now you seem very zealous for the Lord too. I am sure just because our viewpoints on the law differ, that doesn't disqualify either of us for the reward of the Kingdom when Christ returns. That being said, what do you find wrong with trying to obey as many commands as possible?? Again according to God's own words, IF YOU LOVE ME YOU WILL OBEY MY COMMANDS. And I would NEVER tell anyone they were OBLIGATED to obey the law. You are saved by the blood of Christ and now obey the law because you WANT to, not because you HAVE to. And like I said, if Christ COMPLETETLY DESTROYED THE LAW....then you can have sex with your children, eat dogs and cats or whatever else God considers detestable to eat, partake in homosexual activity, etc, etc, etc.....So I guess God doesn't mind Gentiles partaking in these acts he only wants the JEWS to obey them....Hhmmm that makes no sense!!
     
    #39 compvett, Aug 11, 2010
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2010
  20. Terrywoodenpic

    Terrywoodenpic Oldest Heretic

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    I fear you have the whole concept wrong

    The Jewish Law and covenants are Easy, in comparison to the lot of the Christian.

    The Jew has all his laws spelt out by the letter, he only needs to follow them.

    A Christian has to Think and act for himself based on the teachings of Christ.
    Some of these things may well coincide with Jewish law, and that is no surprise.
    But it is not a complete list nor indeed is it all obligatory. Jesus teachings extend the law in a new way to cover every situation in a personal way. It is not a one size fits all.

    This is a problem that a fundamentalist faces.. they like their faith to be spieled out in detail... unfortunately Christ never did that. Our Lives and faith are our own, we must come to terms with our own sins. Listed or not.
     
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