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Who says Christ did away with the Law??

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by compvett, Aug 9, 2010.

  1. compvett

    compvett Member

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    I have been studying the Bible for about 5 years now and can't seem to get away from the argument that some people say according to Scipture, Christ did away with the Old Testament Laws completely. I just can't agree with that 100%.

    That is where you find the 10 commandments, as well as many other laws that Christians today would not want to break. Examples are having sexual intercourse with close family members, participating in homosexuality, murder, rape, etc.... How could you say Christ did away with these things? And if you tell me about the 2 greatest commands in the New Testament about Loving the Lord God with all your heart, soul and understanding and Loving your Neighbor as yourself....(what about the second statement about "THE REST OF THE COMMANDS HANG ON THESE TWO". If Christ did indeed do away with the law then there should be no "rest of the commands hang on these two" reference. If what some say is true then there would be no other commands.

    So here is what I believe Scripture is saying, in Matthew 5 Christ addresses the Old Testament Law. He says WHOEVER (not just Jews or Isrealites) does not obey and teach these commands will be least in the Kingdom of Heaven, but whoever teaches these and does these commands will be great in the Kingdom of Heaven. So obeying them don't get you into the Kingdom, only the acceptance of Christ can do that, but God obviously wants us to follow the commands as closely as possible. Does that not make sense, versus saying the whole Old Testament is not for Christians??
     
  2. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Riboflavin
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    Romans 7 and Colossians 2 certainly suggest to me that the "Old Law" (whatever you consider the "Old Law" to be) has been done away with for those who have "died with Christ".

    While not going into a long dispute about what you consider to be "right" behaviour, one explanation I've heard is that those in whom the Holy Spirit dwells will not be judged according to the Old Law, but at the same time, one way that the indwelling Holy Spirit expresses itself is by producing "right behaviour".

    Maybe you should have another look at Romans. It doesn't say that the Old Law no longer exists; it says that the Old Law is for the living, and that by "dying with Christ", believers have passed beyond the range of applicability of the Old Law.

    IOW, when Jesus talks to the rabbis about how the "Old Law" works, this doesn't necessarily imply that this law applies to all people in the same way.

    The message I get (admittedly as a non-Christian) is that the big issue is allowing God to work in you or not... and once God is working in you, any behavioural issues will just work themselves out.
     
  3. compvett

    compvett Member

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    I think the Acts reference you gave me is referring to man made traditions vs God's actual commands. Romans seems to give a better understanding though. The bottom line is that the law does not save you, only Christ does, but it is a guidline on how we are to live.
    I do believe the Holy Spirit will guide us and teach us in our own minds what is right for us individually. But I just wish people wouldn't teach that Christ did away with the law. If that is the case then anything goes and THAT IS WHAT IS WRONG WITH THIS COUNTRY TODAY!! People don't pay attention to God's word and just do there own thing.
     
  4. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Riboflavin
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    I gave you an Acts reference? :confused:

    I'm not sure how you get that out of it. In the Epistles, Paul admonishes the reader(s) over and over not to be troubled when they're judged harshly for not keeping the "Old Law" or the "written code". In fact, it seems to me that he says using the law as a guideline is something for people whose "faith is weak".

    I don't think so. As an analogy, I think it's like having an untrained pet vs. a trained one. You might keep the untrained pet in a fenced yard and only let him out on a leash, because you know that if you don't provide direct guidance, he'll do something wrong. OTOH, the trained pet can sit on the front porch with you with no leash, no fence, and still behave properly without any command from you.

    Or, if you look at it another way, Christ tells his followers to be motivated by love. If they follow that advice, then there's no need to tell them not to do unloving things.
     
  5. compvett

    compvett Member

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    Sorry, I meant Colossians. And I am not saying Romans gives us that conclusion, I am just saying that is my conclusion.
    How would you know what is pleasing to God unless you studied the Bible?? That is where you find out what his intentions are for us. The commands are there to guide us and if we accept Christ, then we don't do the commands because we HAVE TO, we do them because we want to please the Father. At least that is why I attempt to follow them. Out of obedience not for the intention of Salvation.
     
  6. Reptillian

    Reptillian Hamburgler Extraordinaire

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    In the Bible, Jesus himself says that he didn't come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it...seems pretty straightforward to me. I don't take much stock in what his followers (especially Paul) think anyway...he tells them to "beware the yeast of the pharisees" and they think he's talking about bread because he is hungry.
     
  7. dmgdnooc

    dmgdnooc Active Member

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    I think that the confusion arises from not understanding that keeping the Law has never been applicable to Gentiles.
    The Law is an expression of the Covenant between God and the children of Israel.
    Paul discusses this at length in epistles such as Galatians and Colossians, and it was made clear at the Jerusalem Conference as recorded in Acts 15 that the Law exerted no compulsion on non-Jews.
     
    As regards the Law, Acts 15.19 '.... we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God.'
    Rom 2.14, 15 ' For when the Gentiles, which have not the Law, do by nature the things contained in the Law, these, having not the Law, are a law unto themselves: which shew the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another ....'
    .26 '..... Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the Law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?'
    .29 '.... and circumcision is in the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter ....'
     
    The OT is for Christians, but it is incumbent on a Gentile Christian to discern the righteousness that is in the Law and seek to fulfill that by cultivating a conscience that is sensitive to the Law's precepts as epitomised by Jesus.
    Love God and love your neighbour as yourself.
     
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  8. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Riboflavin
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    NP.

    Is reading the Bible a prerequisite for having the Holy Spirit dwell within you?

    But here's the thing: why do you need to follow them at all?

    Christ tells you to guide your actions by love, right? If you're actually doing that, wouldn't a commandment like "you shall not murder" be completely redundant? Hopefully, your motivation toward love will keep you on the right path long before you divert so far that whether or not you should kill a person even becomes a relevant question.

    Or... another way to look at it is that in the Old Testament, the general message of the 600-odd commandments was "here are the limits - do not stray from the 'right path' any more than this". Now, in the New Testament, the message becomes more simply "stay on the right path".

    When you were a child, your parents might have given you a rule like "don't eat marshmallows for dinner". Now that you're an adult, do your parents still have this rule for you? Probably not. Do you eat marshmallows for dinner every night? Again, probably not. Lack of rules doesn't necessarily mean anarchy; it can also mean maturity.

    IMO, the Old Law effectively laid out how badly a person could misbehave (at least according to the ancient Hebrews' ideas of morality) and still get away with it. Under the New Law, a person does not (or should not) be looking to get away with anything in the first place.
     
  9. compvett

    compvett Member

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    Ok but what about when it says ANYONE, sojourner, stranger, alien who wants to join Isreal, (non isrealite, Gentile) will follow what is written!! Remember there is only one God, not one for Jews and one for Gentiles....right??
    Scripture also talks about Jew and Gentile being one and being grafted in. And in Acts when they talk about not putting too much on the Gentiles but a few requirements.... it then goes on to say that Moses is preached in the synagogues every Sabbath....meaning that they will learn along the way. Just as we should.
    And I am not saying that these laws are binding, but like I said earlier, I do them the best I can to obey the Father. I don't think God will be mad at us if we are TOO obedient, do you???
     
  10. compvett

    compvett Member

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    Well for me I would not be where I am today had I not learned about God, Christ and the Holy Spirit from reading the Bible. So I guess it is not a prerequisite but in my case that is what opened my eyes. At the end of the day it is God ultimately that guides you to him whether it be by the Bible or maybe something else.
     
  11. dmgdnooc

    dmgdnooc Active Member

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    Prior to Peter's vision in Acts 10 and the pouring out of the Spirit on the Gentiles (vs 45) salvation was strictly for Jews only. Gentiles could not be saved unless they converted and became circumcised, Law keeping Jews.
    With the events of Acts 10 though it was clear that God had extended salvation to all peoples, God made the Gentiles clean and no one was to call them unclean from hence forth.
     
    There is one God of the Jews and of the Gentiles, the same God but two different peoples made one in Christ.
    In Rom 11 you will find that the Gentiles have been grafted in, the Jews are natural branches of the olive tree (a tree often associated with Israel, its oil with the Spirit).
     
    The 'few requirements' put on the Gentiles in Acts 15 appear more to be for the sake of fellowship between the Jewish and Gentile Christians (the two peoples were mixed in the churches and contact with the Gentiles would make the Jews unclean if those 'few requirements' were not met).
    Moses was preached in the synagogues, but not necessarily in the Christian churches that the Jewish and Gentile Christians belonged to.
     
    We should learn the Law, you are perfectly correct in that regard, but not with the view of keeping the Law.
    A Gentile Christian should read the Law with the view of learning the righteousness that is the 'why' of the Law, the love that motivated and pervades it.
     
    The problem with a Gentile keeping the Law, or this and that part of it, is the risk that s/he will glory in the keeping, be puffed up with a pride that says to God 'I have done this for you, I have denied myself that for you'.
    The risk is that one can come to rely on one's own righteousness and not the righteousness that comes from God by Jesus Christ.
    Only the Gentile and God can know if that is the case or not, however, that artificial self-righteousness does seem to saturate the public face of Christianity.
     
    God gave the Law to the children of Israel as a sign of their 'wisdom and understanding in the sight of the nations' so that the nations would know that God was near to Israel. Deut 4.6,7. And it was a 'yoke upon the neck' of Israel that they could not bear. Acts 15.10.
    But the Gentiles He 'called unto liberty', to be 'led of the Spirit'. Gal 5.13+18.
    I see no advantage, to myself, in assuming a burden that I know I cannot bear.
     
    It should be noted that one can't be TOO obedient, one either is obedient or is not, there is no TOO.
     
    Now, with all that said, if what you practice in regards the Law is helpful to your understanding of the 'why' of the Law then all is well and good; that is, if you can avoid the self-righteousness that lurks in the shadow of all 'works'. Eph 2.9.
     
     
    #11 dmgdnooc, Aug 9, 2010
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2010
  12. Terrywoodenpic

    Terrywoodenpic Oldest Heretic

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    Give the man a prize:bow:

    Exactly so....

    Paul and James came to an agreement on the subject in Jerusalem.
     
  13. compvett

    compvett Member

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    The bottom line is this....EVERYTHING Christ did, and EVERYTHING the Apostles taught, came directly from the Old Testament Law. The Law was never set up to save you, God never said do this law and you will be saved. HE DID SAY YOU WILL LIVE A LONG BLESSED LIFE, AND THAT IF YOU LOVE ME YOU WILL OBEY MY COMMANDS!! The law shows us what sin is.... it did then and it does today.

    The Bible has always taught that WHOEVER calls on the name of the Lord will be saved!! Don't ignore the law, learn it and obey it for one reason and one reason only, BECAUSE YOU LOVE THE FATHER!!
     
  14. idea

    idea Well-Known Member

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    Much of the ceremonial law was fulfilled at the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, ie, no more animal sacrifices, lots more stuff to eat - like pigs, etc. etc. Those who lived before Jesus were being taught what to expect, there is no more need to be taught what to expect after it already happened... just like you prepare for a storm before the storm hits - after the fact, you are no longer in preparation mode, you are in work mode...


    now that we have Jesus' life as an example to follow, there is a higher law - instead of "don't kill" it's "love your enemy" - we are now expected to do more, not less... the new law is a higher law, because we have Jesus as an example, those in the OT did not.
     
  15. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Riboflavin
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    It has? :confused:

     
  16. compvett

    compvett Member

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    Joel 2:32 And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.

    Psalm 21:5 They cried out to you (LORD) and were saved.

    Acts 2:21 And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.

    Romans 10:13 for Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.

    Seems pretty clear to me. Wonder why in Matthew Christ says only those who do the will of my Father will enter the Kingdom. It is all about faith and works together. I wonder why he says get away from me, I never knew you. What you do in conjucture with the law is the sign that God knows you.

    James 2:18 But someone will say, You have faith I have deeds. Show me your faith without deeds and I will show you my faith by what I do.

    I'll say it one last time. Part of your relationship with God is walking in his ways. What are his ways. They are his commands. Remember what Matthew 5 says. Christ tells us to obey the OT commands of God. Not for salvation but for blessings and our place in the Kingdom. That is my conviction and I am sticking to it.

    And I am not talking about sacrifices, stonings, etc....that is what Christ did away with. That is the curse of the law, which were the punishments and the death sentence that would have been required. Christ took that death sentence for us. He did away with the consequences of breaking the law not the total law itself. And there are parts of the law that I would agree don't necessarily apply to us today. But to say Christ just did away with the whole law is absurd.
     
  17. idea

    idea Well-Known Member

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    Christ overcame death for everyone but.... there are some consequences which remain intact...

    such as:
    (New Testament | 1 Corinthians 15:41 - 42)
    41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
    42 So also is the resurrection of the dead.

    different degrees of glory...
     
  18. budha3

    budha3 Member

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    When you realize that in the old testament God was viewed as a jealous God, and a God who sactioned stoning, it's easy to see that there are some problems with the Old testament. Al qaeda believes that God sanctions murder also, and we know that this is not true. The God of true Muslim believers is view as worthy of praise, and this is why they practice the "shallot." To a true Muslim 'there is no God but God." Christ didn't do away with the law, he clarified it.
     
  19. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Riboflavin
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    Why did you leave out the "in the last days" bit at the beginning of the passage?

    :confused: Or...

    5His glory is great through Your salvation,
    Splendor and majesty You place upon him.


    ... quoting Joel. The same question applies.

    Okay... I'll give you that one.

    To me, too: the Bible contradicts itself. Simple.

    Then what do you think Christ died for, in your estimation? Was his sacrifice perfect?
     
  20. dmgdnooc

    dmgdnooc Active Member

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    '.... thou shalt not eat of it ....' (Gen 2.17) is enough law to show what sin is;
    while 'love God and love your neighbour as yourself' is enough law to live by.
    Sin will manifest itself regardless of how many or varied are the laws by which a life is governed.
     
    'WHOEVER calls on the name of the Lord will be saved' is from Joel (and he is speaking of the time after Christ).
    Paul quotes it in Rom 10 with his emphasis being on hearing and believing the words of the preacher (the words of the gospel of peace that he was preaching).
    There is no suggestion that he was advocating the keeping of the Law, quite the opposite.
    Salvation extended to the Gentiles in Christ, without the requirement of Law keeping, is meant to provoke Israel to jealousy.
     
    You should note that a Gentile Christian who keeps the Law is acting contrary to God's design in extending salvation without the Law.
    God requires Israel to recognise (in the Gentile) that salvation is by grace, not by the works of the Law.
    The Gentile will fail of provoking Israel to jealousy by doing the Law and puts himself in the way of sin's more subtle aspects.
     
    When a father has two sons and he says to one do this and to the other do that, how is He obeyed if both do the same thing?

     
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