Who Knew....?

[BilliardsBall]

Who says it's a "who?"

I see. You believe in Creation but not in a personal Creation. Interesting.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Euclid.

Again, you have willfully confused my word "created" with the word "discovered" or "codified".

Euclid didn't invent math or logic or the fact that these two metaphysical systems work in nature.

Repent!

 

[Deeje]

so.....the souls of Adam and Eve.....are dead?

Actually the souls that "were" Adam and Eve are dead. The word "soul" (nephesh) in Hebrew never means a disembodied spirit....it only ever meant a living breathing creature, both man and animal.

The Bible does not teach that man "has" a soul...only that he "is" a soul. Adam "became" a soul when God started him breathing. (Genesis 2:7)

When the breath (spirit) leaves the body, all thought processes cease. (Psalm 146:4; Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10) Death is a sleep. Those in their graves await a resurrection. (John 5:28-29)

Souls die. (Ezekiel 18:4) They do not live on somewhere else.

Belief in an immortal soul is from Platonic Greek teachings that infiltrated both Judaism and Christianity.....it does not come from the Bible.

 

[siti]

Euclid didn't invent math or logic or the fact that these two metaphysical systems work in nature.

No he didn't he invented geometry. And metaphysical systems don't work in nature they work in minds. That's really the point - and what Mandelbrot "discovered" was the fact that Euclid's precise geometry was a hopelessly imprecise imaginary representation of nature as she really is - which cannot be replicated in minds for the precise reason that it is so hopelessly and complicatedly imprecise no matter how miniscule a scale we probe. Anyway, Mandelbrot definitely created fractal geometry just as Euclid created geometry both are elegant, but imprecise approximations of reality - God, if there is one, and if she created anything at all, "created" a real world that is way beyond encapsulating in either geometry or metaphysics. You do err, not knowing the math, nor the power of "God"! (to paraphrase Matthew 22:29)

 

[Thief]

Actually the souls that "were" Adam and Eve are dead. The word "soul" (nephesh) in Hebrew never means a disembodied spirit....it only ever meant a living breathing creature, both man and animal.

The Bible does not teach that man "has" a soul...only that he "is" a soul. Adam "became" a soul when God started him breathing. (Genesis 2:7)

When the breath (spirit) leaves the body, all thought processes cease. (Psalm 146:4; Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10) Death is a sleep. Those in their graves await a resurrection. (John 5:28-29)

Souls die. (Ezekiel 18:4) They do not live on somewhere else.

Belief in an immortal soul is from Platonic Greek teachings that infiltrated both Judaism and Christianity.....it does not come from the Bible.

"........and they are as angels........"
the Carpenter

someone was asking the Carpenter.....whose wife would she be having been passes from one brother to the next
each brother having died and leaving the widow to his sibling
( apparently a Jewish custom of the time)

".....and neither taken or given in marriage but are as angels....."

the Carpenter believed in life beyond the last breath
many say He resurrected and ascended

I say....He lives
He lives in the kingdom of heaven

I say we should follow
in spirit

for the Lord God is spirit
and the sons of God are spirit
and the grave has no hold

 

[Deeje]

"........and they are as angels........"
the Carpenter

someone was asking the Carpenter.....whose wife would she be having been passes from one brother to the next
each brother having died and leaving the widow to his sibling
( apparently a Jewish custom of the time)

".....and neither taken or given in marriage but are as angels....."

He was speaking about those who are resurrected. "In the resurrection, they will neither marry or be given in marriage".

This is not talking about life after death as you may understand it.
There are two completely different resurrections spoken about in the Bible. One to life in heaven for the "chosen ones" and one to life on earth for their subjects.

The Bible says that death ends the marriage bond....so the ones who tried to trick Jesus with that question, were Sadducees, who had no belief in the resurrection. Jesus set them straight, stating that they did not know scripture or the God they purported to worship.

the Carpenter believed in life beyond the last breath
many say He resurrected and ascended

I say....He lives
He lives in the kingdom of heaven

I agree. Jesus returned to his Father in heaven. He lives now, just as he lived before he took up his earthly mission.
He lived and died in the flesh, but was "made alive in the spirit" according to Peter. (1 Peter 3:18) Jesus is called the "firstborn from the dead" yet he was not the first person to be resurrected. Jesus and his apostles performed resurrections. So it means that Jesus was the first human to attain spirit life in heaven. His anointed disciples were to follow, but not until his return. (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17)

I say we should follow
in spirit

for the Lord God is spirit
and the sons of God are spirit
and the grave has no hold

Those whom God has chosen to rule with Christ will attain to life in the spirit, but as with all rulers, they need subjects. Those who experience the "first resurrection" will be both "kings and priests". (Revelation 20:6) It is obvious that kings do not rule over other kings and priests need sinners for whom to perform their priestly duties. Those who attain to heavenly life are sinless, having left their sinful flesh and being resurrected in a new incorruptible spirit body.

Revelation 21:2-4 tells us that Jesus and his bride will bring their rulership to mankind, resulting in untold blessings to them. This is the purpose of the Kingdom...to bring the redeemed human race back to the same conditions that Adam and his wife once enjoyed in the garden of Eden. Humans were designed to live on earth forever and God provided the means to do so.....he will do so again.

 

[Mister Silver]

Who knew?

I certainly know who didn't have any claim in man discovering the whale fact; his name begins with a g and ends with a d with an o in the middle.

If man hadn't discovered that whales could change climate, how could the ever so clueless OP have found the evidence to post about it?

Methinks one doth protest too much when it comes to referring to everything as accidental.

 

[Deeje]

Who knew?

I certainly know who didn't have any claim in man discovering the whale fact; his name begins with a g and ends with a d with an o in the middle.

If man hadn't discovered that whales could change climate, how could the ever so clueless OP have found the evidence to post about it?

Methinks one doth protest too much when it comes to referring to everything as accidental.

It would be good if any of that made sense.....

The OP was about humans assuming one thing but being proven wrong, like so many things in science. They assumed that the less whales there were, the more food there would be for a diminished population, hence justification for killing them. They were proven wrong because the opposite is actually true. The more whales there are, the more food there is because they are designed to increase their food production and actually take carbon out of the atmosphere.

Science is not as smart as you assume.

 

[Mister Silver]

Science is not as smart as you assume.

Science is smart enough for it to be true despite assumptions to the contrary.

 

[BilliardsBall]

No he didn't he invented geometry. And metaphysical systems don't work in nature they work in minds. That's really the point - and what Mandelbrot "discovered" was the fact that Euclid's precise geometry was a hopelessly imprecise imaginary representation of nature as she really is - which cannot be replicated in minds for the precise reason that it is so hopelessly and complicatedly imprecise no matter how miniscule a scale we probe. Anyway, Mandelbrot definitely created fractal geometry just as Euclid created geometry both are elegant, but imprecise approximations of reality - God, if there is one, and if she created anything at all, "created" a real world that is way beyond encapsulating in either geometry or metaphysics. You do err, not knowing the math, nor the power of "God"! (to paraphrase Matthew 22:29)

I see. God created a world not possibly encapsulated by systems like geometry, yet geometry provides excellent results when employed in the physical 3D world. Interesting.

It must be helpful to suspend belief in a practical God who is concerned with our knowledge and well-being to use general statements like "If God exists, we cannot understand her." While I admire your biblical perspective since the world that is coming will be beyond our present imagining (!) we have a God who cares for us so personally, He became a person to be relatable to us.

 

[Thief]

He was speaking about those who are resurrected. "In the resurrection, they will neither marry or be given in marriage".

This is not talking about life after death as you may understand it.
There are two completely different resurrections spoken about in the Bible. One to life in heaven for the "chosen ones" and one to life on earth for their subjects.

The Bible says that death ends the marriage bond....so the ones who tried to trick Jesus with that question, were Sadducees, who had no belief in the resurrection. Jesus set them straight, stating that they did not know scripture or the God they purported to worship.



I agree. Jesus returned to his Father in heaven. He lives now, just as he lived before he took up his earthly mission.
He lived and died in the flesh, but was "made alive in the spirit" according to Peter. (1 Peter 3:18) Jesus is called the "firstborn from the dead" yet he was not the first person to be resurrected. Jesus and his apostles performed resurrections. So it means that Jesus was the first human to attain spirit life in heaven. His anointed disciples were to follow, but not until his return. (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17)



Those whom God has chosen to rule with Christ will attain to life in the spirit, but as with all rulers, they need subjects. Those who experience the "first resurrection" will be both "kings and priests". (Revelation 20:6) It is obvious that kings do not rule over other kings and priests need sinners for whom to perform their priestly duties. Those who attain to heavenly life are sinless, having left their sinful flesh and being resurrected in a new incorruptible spirit body.

Revelation 21:2-4 tells us that Jesus and his bride will bring their rulership to mankind, resulting in untold blessings to them. This is the purpose of the Kingdom...to bring the redeemed human race back to the same conditions that Adam and his wife once enjoyed in the garden of Eden. Humans were designed to live on earth forever and God provided the means to do so.....he will do so again.

well posted....thank you....

but i noticed, whenever the mention of a crown was made....the Carpenter would leave
and of Himself He did say.......brother and fellow servant

I suspect ....if there be a return to this existence in the flesh
it will be to deal unto the risen as they dealt unto others

I would prefer to walk among the angelic
I am not worthy or course
I will need to be retrained
to the language, the territory and the scheme of things

I seek a higher level of grace

 

[SkepticThinker]

Who says it isn't? It all boils down to what you want to believe.....that is what we all have...beliefs...

I couldn't disagree more. What we want to believe is irrelevant to what is actually true.

So I ask again, who says it's a who?

..you believe that life happened for no apparent reason....it just 'poofed' itself into existence one day out of the blue and kept dividing and multiplying and modifying itself for millions of years until it became various species of dinosaurs....

You're projecting your beliefs onto me. I don't think anything "poofed" anywhere.

And you think what we believe is far fetched...?

Yes, because many of the beliefs you have espoused on this forum fly in the face of the available evidence.

At least we have some intelligence directing the process.

What you want to believe is irrelevant to what is actually true.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I see. You believe in Creation but not in a personal Creation. Interesting.

Sorry, what?

 

[Deeje]

but i noticed, whenever the mention of a crown was made....the Carpenter would leave
and of Himself He did say.......brother and fellow servant

That is true....Jesus resisted a couple of times with efforts to make him a human king. Once was when the devil tempted him by offering world rulership in exchange for one act of worship. The kingship over mankind that Jesus receives is from his Father, not from any human or spirit creature. It is given only at the time that God has scheduled for it to commence.
Jesus did treat his disciples as brothers and friends, not as inferior humans (even though they were sinful and he was not)
His humility and patience was a reflection of his Father's personality......The Creator continues to hear our prayers through a mediator he appointed for us....otherwise our sinful state would separate us from God altogether.

I suspect ....if there be a return to this existence in the flesh
it will be to deal unto the risen as they dealt unto others

Jesus' return will not be in the flesh. His bringing the kingdom rule to the earth does not require his physical presence, just as Israel's rulership initially did not require a physical human king. Only after they complained and demanded a human king, did God appoint one for them. He also warned them about what it would mean.....but they didn't listen. They wanted to have a visible ruler like all the other nations. Unfortunately, as we all know, power corrupts humans and Israel had a succession of wicked kings who led the whole nation astray. Again teaching a valuable lesson in obedience and demonstrating how abusing free will (following the dictates of our own will) can lead to disaster. They could not be told, so they had to be shown. Experience is the greatest teacher. God is a great teacher who uses experience to educate us.

I would prefer to walk among the angelic
I am not worthy or course
I will need to be retrained
to the language, the territory and the scheme of things

The hope of a heavenly life is not ours to choose. Rulership as 'kings and priests' is reserved for a chosen few. God chooses them and anoints them for a very different existence. They do not need training as they have been programmed already by holy spirit. It produced in the first Christians (who were all of that group) an inordinate desire to shed their mortal bodies and to be with their "Lord" in heaven as spirit beings. This is not natural for humans designed for an earthly life, so it required God's spirit to completely change their expectations and their destiny. It wasn't just a hope, it was a certainty.

This is not to be confused with our natural desire to live in paradise. As Jesus promised the evildoer hung alongside him, when he said...."you will be with me in paradise"......he wasn't promising him life in heaven, but as a subject of the kingdom on earth when Jesus resurrects "both the righteous and the unrighteous". (John 5:28-29)

We humans are designed to live in paradise, not heaven. The first paradise was here on earth.....this is where God put us and he designed the earth to be our permanent home. He gave humans the ability to live forever in mortal flesh....all they had to do was obey God's instructions. It was not difficult, in fact it caused them no hardship whatsoever. There was no excuse to disobey.

I seek a higher level of grace

We are all sinners who need Christ's sacrifice to cover our imperfections. The only kind of sin that is not forgiven is the one where we fail to repent. Genuine repentance is the only basis for forgiveness. Christ died for all, but not all will qualify for that forgiveness. It is conditional......like life itself.

 

[siti]

I see.

Apparently you don't - not a terribly auspicious start but nevertheless...

God created a world not possibly encapsulated by systems like geometry, yet geometry provides excellent results when employed in the physical 3D world.

Providing excellent results is not the same as a providing perfect descriptions. Geometry is elegant - it reduces the world to a set of relatively simple rules, but you could never make a real world like ours in all its glorious and chaotic complexity starting from geometry

Interesting.

Isn't it just!

It must be helpful to suspend belief in a practical God who is concerned with our knowledge and well-being...

Indeed it is - you should try it some time.

I prefer to reserve comment on the rest of your post.

 

[Deeje]

I couldn't disagree more. What we want to believe is irrelevant to what is actually true.

Absolutely! And that applies to you as much as it does to me.

So I ask again, who says it's a who?

Who says it isn't?

You're projecting your beliefs onto me. I don't think anything "poofed" anywhere.

You think that life sprang into existence all by itself somehow with no intelligent direction at all......so you do believe it "poofed" itself into existence. How is your idea better than what the Bible says? Science has no idea how life began......so it cannot eliminate a Creator. It knows for a fact that "life springs from pre-existing life".....so the existence of an Intelligent Creator is more in keeping with that fact rather than a chance chemical accident somewhere in the dim dark past.

Yes, because many of the beliefs you have espoused on this forum fly in the face of the available evidence.

All of the beliefs you have espoused also lack substantive evidence. There is no evidence for macro-evolution except in the fertile imagination of science. If there was conclusive proof, it would have been provided by now.....there have only been unsubstantiated suggestions to date.

What you want to believe is irrelevant to what is actually true.

You do understand that this also applies equally to yourself?

 

[Thief]

That is true....Jesus resisted a couple of times with efforts to make him a human king. Once was when the devil tempted him by offering world rulership in exchange for one act of worship. The kingship over mankind that Jesus receives is from his Father, not from any human or spirit creature. It is given only at the time that God has scheduled for it to commence.
Jesus did treat his disciples as brothers and friends, not as inferior humans (even though they were sinful and he was not)
His humility and patience was a reflection of his Father's personality......The Creator continues to hear our prayers through a mediator he appointed for us....otherwise our sinful state would separate us from God altogether.



Jesus' return will not be in the flesh. His bringing the kingdom rule to the earth does not require his physical presence, just as Israel's rulership initially did not require a physical human king. Only after they complained and demanded a human king, did God appoint one for them. He also warned them about what it would mean.....but they didn't listen. They wanted to have a visible ruler like all the other nations. Unfortunately, as we all know, power corrupts humans and Israel had a succession of wicked kings who led the whole nation astray. Again teaching a valuable lesson in obedience and demonstrating how abusing free will (following the dictates of our own will) can lead to disaster. They could not be told, so they had to be shown. Experience is the greatest teacher. God is a great teacher who uses experience to educate us.



The hope of a heavenly life is not ours to choose. Rulership as 'kings and priests' is reserved for a chosen few. God chooses them and anoints them for a very different existence. They do not need training as they have been programmed already by holy spirit. It produced in the first Christians (who were all of that group) an inordinate desire to shed their mortal bodies and to be with their "Lord" in heaven as spirit beings. This is not natural for humans designed for an earthly life, so it required God's spirit to completely change their expectations and their destiny. It wasn't just a hope, it was a certainty.

This is not to be confused with our natural desire to live in paradise. As Jesus promised the evildoer hung alongside him, when he said...."you will be with me in paradise"......he wasn't promising him life in heaven, but as a subject of the kingdom on earth when Jesus resurrects "both the righteous and the unrighteous". (John 5:28-29)

We humans are designed to live in paradise, not heaven. The first paradise was here on earth.....this is where God put us and he designed the earth to be our permanent home. He gave humans the ability to live forever in mortal flesh....all they had to do was obey God's instructions. It was not difficult, in fact it caused them no hardship whatsoever. There was no excuse to disobey.



We are all sinners who need Christ's sacrifice to cover our imperfections. The only kind of sin that is not forgiven is the one where we fail to repent. Genuine repentance is the only basis for forgiveness. Christ died for all, but not all will qualify for that forgiveness. It is conditional......like life itself.

nice sermon....but I cannot nod my head to all you have said

experience is a random thing in this life

how you respond displays your spirit

heaven is not seeking your humanity
it is seeking a reflection of itself

 

[Guy Threepwood]

This was amazing too....the sound of crickets slowed down sounds like a choir.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1810889285894025

Something very interesting I learned recently; counting the chirps a cricket makes in 14 seconds, gives you the temperature- I tried it a few times and it's extremely accurate- seems to stop working at about freezing though!

 

[Sapiens]

Something very interesting I learned recently; counting the chirps a cricket makes in 14 seconds, gives you the temperature- I tried it a few times and it's extremely accurate- seems to stop working at about freezing though!

That is know as Dolbear's law and your numbers are wrong. The formula which provides a way to estimate the temperature TF in degrees Fahrenheit given the number of chirps per minute N60 is:

TF=50+(N60-40)/4

 

[BilliardsBall]

Apparently you don't - not a terribly auspicious start but nevertheless...

Providing excellent results is not the same as a providing perfect descriptions. Geometry is elegant - it reduces the world to a set of relatively simple rules, but you could never make a real world like ours in all its glorious and chaotic complexity starting from geometry Isn't it just!

Indeed it is - you should try it some time.

I prefer to reserve comment on the rest of your post.

I often do gedanken as you suggest, pretending there is no God as a hypothesis then following through. Of note, atheists continue to act as the Bible says they shall.