Who Knew....?

[Jainarayan]

Our universe, most likely not, in fact most scientists believe our universe is in some way finite, because time began with a hypothetical beginning of our universe. Though are others who propose that it may in some way cyclic. The question is what about the greater cosmos outside our universe. This indeed is an open question, and this greater cosmos may be eternal, and we presently do not have enough information to draw any conclusions. Those that argue for a multiverse believe that our physical existence may be eternal. Claims of infinities or 'always existed' here does not apply outside our universe or any possible other universe.

The problem arises when some argue that our physical existence is finite based on a religious agenda, and this is primarily based on an 'argument from ignorance' that concludes since there is no evidence therefore . . . Science is no help here.

I'm of the belief it's not infinite. It has a beginning, a current life, an end. What I believe is in finite is the cycle of universes coming into and going out of existence.

 

[siti]

Who Created fractal math, do you think?

Benoit Mandelbrot.

 

[Thief]

No, the law coexists and in harmony with the substance regardless of whether God exists or not.

substance and it's behavior.........'self' creating?

 

[siti]

substance and it's behavior.........'self' creating?

Yes - that. Reality is after all, as far as we can tell, a continual objective/subjective bipolar process of what it is becoming what it is becoming what it is...etc. Everything is always in the process of creating "itself" and then re-creating "itself". God or no God that is what is happening and happening is what "it", whatever "it" is, does. If you see what mean - or even if you don't see what I mean if you see what I mean. Yep - that's clear enough I think .

 

[Thief]

Yes - that. Reality is after all, as far as we can tell, a continual objective/subjective bipolar process of what it is becoming what it is becoming what it is...etc. Everything is always in the process of creating "itself" and then re-creating "itself". God or no God that is what is happening and happening is what "it", whatever "it" is, does. If you see what mean - or even if you don't see what I mean if you see what I mean. Yep - that's clear enough I think .

so....your ancestors were created by a hot puddle of mud.....

good for you

I say....Spirit first
substance as creation

 

[siti]

so....your ancestors were created by a hot puddle of mud...

Oh yes! And I'm very proud of that puddle - no achievement since has matched what it did when it produced the first self-sustaining, self-replicating proto-life form. I am indeed a direct descendant of that very puddle - the most creatively brilliant biochemist ever to have walked - sorry - sloshed about on - the face of the earth. Water into wine - pfff! Child's play by comparison.

 

[Deeje]

Yes - that. Reality is after all, as far as we can tell, a continual objective/subjective bipolar process of what it is becoming what it is becoming what it is...etc. Everything is always in the process of creating "itself" and then re-creating "itself". God or no God that is what is happening and happening is what "it", whatever "it" is, does. If you see what mean - or even if you don't see what I mean if you see what I mean. Yep - that's clear enough I think .

 

[siti]

Reality is a process - or rather a complex interconnected network of nested and entangled processes - not a collection of static "things". Everything evolves - nothing at all remains as it is even for as long as it takes to give the simplest explanation of what it is. So when @Thief (who doesn't agree with this) wrote "substance and it's behaviour self-creating" I absolutely agreed with his description even though he doesn't agree with it. Its called process philosophy and leads (more or less logically, if you want to apply it to God) to panentheism - "all in God".

 

[osgart]

so does entropy have the final say in our universe? or is there more going on?

 

[BilliardsBall]

Benoit Mandelbrot.

Who created the underlying principles that Mandelbrot discovered in creation?

 

[BilliardsBall]

I am a theist, and of course, all of our physical existence including fractal math is Created by God, but that is a belief, and not supported by objective evidence. I believe our physical existence was Created by natural processes and Natural Law.

But what I 'think' and believe is not an argument for or against the scientific view of the nature of our physical existence, or the sciences including evolution. The objective verifiable evidence supports the sciences across the board beyond a reasonable doubt. The advantage of the sciences is willingness to change when new information becomes available through discovery, or research by scientific methods.

But science cannot handle metaphysics. Logic and math exist and are axiomatic in any science discourse. Logic and math (and Spirit) are metaphysics. We cannot use "science" to prove logic and math exist but they are accepted.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Who created the underlying principles that Mandelbrot discovered in creation?

Who says it's a "who?"

 

[Thief]

Reality is a process - or rather a complex interconnected network of nested and entangled processes - not a collection of static "things". Everything evolves - nothing at all remains as it is even for as long as it takes to give the simplest explanation of what it is. So when @Thief (who doesn't agree with this) wrote "substance and it's behaviour self-creating" I absolutely agreed with his description even though he doesn't agree with it. Its called process philosophy and leads (more or less logically, if you want to apply it to God) to panentheism - "all in God".

processes have a beginning

go back to the beginning and choose
Spirit first or substance

if substance first .....then all of intelligent life is a chemical reaction
and terminal

and the evolution of spirit has no purpose
Man is a mystery
with no resolve

 

[Deeje]

Who says it's a "who?"

Who says it isn't? It all boils down to what you want to believe.....that is what we all have...beliefs.....you believe that life happened for no apparent reason....it just 'poofed' itself into existence one day out of the blue and kept dividing and multiplying and modifying itself for millions of years until it became various species of dinosaurs....
And you think what we believe is far fetched...?

At least we have some intelligence directing the process.

 

[siti]

Who created the underlying principles that Mandelbrot discovered in creation?

Euclid.

 

[siti]

processes have a beginning

go back to the beginning and choose
Spirit first or substance

if substance first .....then all of intelligent life is a chemical reaction
and terminal

and the evolution of spirit has no purpose
Man is a mystery
with no resolve

Well we don't know that process (per se, and as opposed to 'processes') had a beginning. The rest of your post is entirely correct as far as I can see.

 

[osgart]

the concept that all living creatures are born under the curse of death is intriguing. and that we must reconcile back to truth God in order to live forever. that this existence has no spirit, and we must cease to exist, or turn from our sinful nature that we are born under. but is it real?

 

[Thief]

Well we don't know that process (per se, and as opposed to 'processes') had a beginning. The rest of your post is entirely correct as far as I can see.

what we can be sure of.....something happened
and it resulted in structure and motion

with all the tell tale appearances of design

 

[Deeje]

the concept that all living creatures are born under the curse of death is intriguing. and that we must reconcile back to truth God in order to live forever.

It is true, according to the Bible. Humans were created to live forever in paradise conditions here on earth. The only way to keep living in their mortal state was to obey one reasonable command of the Creator. It was not a difficult request.

There was also the "tree of life" in the garden, (Genesis 2:9) which indicates that it had certain properties that would impart everlasting life to those partaking of it. (Genesis 3:22) Had the humans continued to obey, they would have had free access to the fruit or leaves of this tree. But once they disobeyed, access to this tree was denied. The penalty of death was unavoidable. Not just physical death, but spiritual death as well, which resulted in alienation from God. A reconciliation was needed and God made the way for Adam's children to get back what Adam lost for them.

that this existence has no spirit, and we must cease to exist, or turn from our sinful nature that we are born under. but is it real?

We are mortal beings just like the animals, but God made us quite different in that he created us in his own image. It is a natural cycle of life and death for the animals, but death was not programmed into humans. We alone were given the capacity and the will to live forever. We also have a moral capacity, not seen in animals.

When Adam brought sin and death on the human race, he made us just like the animals, as Solomon wrote....."I also said in my heart about the sons of men that the true God will test them and show them that they are like animals, 19 for there is an outcome for humans and an outcome for animals; they all have the same outcome. As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit. So man has no superiority over animals, for everything is futile. 20 All are going to the same place. They all come from the dust, and they all are returning to the dust." (Ecclesiastes 3:18-20)

There is no immortal part of man that departs from the body at death. The soul dies (Ezekiel 18:4) When we die, we sleep in death, and return to the dust like Adam. But our life can be returned to us by means of a resurrection, just like Jesus' raised his friend Lazarus.

We are designed a certain way and the other creatures on this earth were designed in a specific way as well.....All were intended to live in harmony with their environment, created especially for them. Nothing is the product of blind chance.
Life is not a fortunate accident.

 

[Thief]

It is true, according to the Bible. Humans were created to live forever in paradise conditions here on earth. The only way to keep living in their mortal state was to obey one reasonable command of the Creator. It was not a difficult request.

There was also the "tree of life" in the garden, (Genesis 2:9) which indicates that it had certain properties that would impart everlasting life to those partaking of it. (Genesis 3:22) Had the humans continued to obey, they would have had free access to the fruit or leaves of this tree. But once they disobeyed, access to this tree was denied. The penalty of death was unavoidable. Not just physical death, but spiritual death as well, which resulted in alienation from God. A reconciliation was needed and God made the way for Adam's children to get back what Adam lost for them..

so.....the souls of Adam and Eve.....are dead?