Who is your Savior? And saving you from what?

[TransmutingSoul]

Which one? Revealing, or Concealing?

I see both are valid.

Regards Tony

 

[stvdv]

You did not muddy things up. You actually gave some nice and inspiring examples

We consciously do wrong and we loose our innocence

Very true. Loosing our innocence is a big one. Solution is simple, if I understand you correctly, we should stop doing consciously wrong

Because God is sinless, our connection or oneness with him is lost.

A big loss. I even see it between 2 humans. Impure persons try dragging down pure persons, because seeing their own impurity hurts

 

[chinu]

Who is your Savior?

Inner Sai baba ji.

And saving you from what?

Debt. clearing my account of both good and bad deeds.

 

[stvdv]

Maybe like a divorce but God continues to pursue us individually

Whenever I read verses about marriage/divorce, my first thought is "marriage/divorce to God"

So our spirits become separated from Him, separated from real life, separated from the light of His life.

The irony. Quite a few Atheists mock Theists to get a real life. 1 second living with God I value more than 100 without

 

[stvdv]

So, does tarnished fit that description? I don't know. Maybe the best way is "separated from the life of God" as He wanted it.

I used tarnished, because you mentioned "saving us from sin". But a tarnished soul feels weird. I rather would say "lack of awareness from the truth that is already in us, ready to be seen". Also "as He wanted it" would suggest that God has a desire, which is hard to believe for me, as His thought/word materializes instantly. But I could say "as I (being aware of being separated) want it" (not to be separated anymore)

In the Christian understanding, when He knocks on the door of your heart saying "I want to restore our relationship and renew our vows with each other" and we say "yes" - we become what is called "born-again". Our spirits are rebirthed to a perfect spirit that will never experience the separation of sin again.

You mentioned before "We consciously do wrong and we loose our innocence" + "Because God is sinless, our connection or oneness with him is lost.". This gives me the feeling that our spirit is never tarnished, but due to "doing wrong" we feel just disconnected. "Rebirthed to a perfect spirit" gives me the feeling that "spirit was temporary not perfect". So kind of tarnished, hence I think you meant it figuratively. I have done rebirthing and that removed blocks after which I felt better connected. So after "spirit rebirthing" we are aware again. Because IMO spirit can't be disconnected; we are just not aware.

Does this still make sense. Seeing it from different angles, and different words/languages does give me more "feeling" about this unfathomable mystery, which is impossible to describe using words, although words seem useful, to some extend, to poke some interest to go beyond words.

Our spirits are rebirthed to a perfect spirit that will never experience the separation of sin again.

Are you saying that those Christians will never have the "feeling" again, that they have sinned. Or that those Christians never sin again?

So sin can never separate us again from God because now our spirits are remade into the original design of God and forever united with His Spirit.

Some say "yes", but later they let go of God, maybe even become Anti-theist, or even start sinning again. Does the above still apply to them?

Our spirit is that part that make us eternal beings created by God that was supposed to be made in His image and in His likeness and, when recreated, is just that. Our soul gives us our individuality of personality.

I hope I didn't muddy things up. Let me know.

I have a different view about "Soul". I see it in connection with "Awareness". Emotions in the heart muddy my awareness, hence it seems that "my soul is disconnected", whereas in my view my focus is a bit off; but it's mainly difference of definitions. I do think I have a better picture now

So, thanks for all the feedback

 

[stvdv]

I see both are valid.

Regards Tony

Thanks for helping me out here. And I agree. Coming from God, I guess both must be valid

 

[oldbadger]

Who is your Savior? And saving you from what?

Note 1: Speak for yourself, try not to generalize or speak for others - let's leave that to ***
Note 2: Use your own words, not copy/paste verses from Bible or other Scriptures
Note 3: This is not restricted to Theists only of course

Best known is Jesus whom Christians believe/know will save them from their sins
Less known are other Saviors who also claim to save them from ***
Well known is Trump I will save you from ******

Do you need a mediator?

My 'saviour' is also my 'executioner' no different from any sparrow's or squirrel's.

Fate is 'whatever will be'.

So I live... now, at this time, and I appreciate every moment.

 

[MNoBody]

as people we are needy mortal creatures, in a world that eventually does kill us....
life may be seen as being just a series of events people do to stave this off....buy a little more time.
being saved, from necessity and extremes is a constant event we all experience.....
like the convenient bathroom that saved the day when one truly needed it.....

when we get ideas as to what life is about [which we have no one single answer to] this is where the matter gets difficult,
since humans are way too smart for their own good, overthinking everything,
or thinking wrongly [which history shows people tend to do more often than thinking correctly, as the results show].

 

[Samantha Rinne]

I was following up until the trump part. Just because?

One thing I found is I don't need a savior. There's no one I know of call to,in a spiritual sense, to help me. It's more cultivating my state of being and if I have support, cool. I'd say I have support not savior. I do believe I will die "and" nothing will be left of me but ash, energy, and memories to only those who wish to keep them alive. But save me? What does that mean? (Outside christian context?)

Well, let's use secular terms. Suppose you make a complete waste of your life. You figure if you do anything too great, you'd become attached to it. So you really strive for nothing. Ordinary job, ordinary girlfriend who ditches you for being unmotivated, ordinary everything. At the end of your life, you're like "I wish I'd spent less time working, and at least taken a vacation." Dead. That's it.
Different you. This version resolves to take all the vacations, goof off and have fun. You wind up in debt. Worse, because everyone else is at least a part-timer, you die friendless and alone. That's it. You had one life, you say, and you screwed it up.
Different you. Seeing that you believe this life is it, you resolve to live a life with no regrets. You do the bucket list thing. You attract and marry the hottest woman ever, and she stays young and beautiful (uhhhh she's half-elf). You paint some incredible artwork. You write novels. You build things of wonder and beauty. Surely with all of this you will have no regrets right? Well... I've tried each of these roads long enough to figure out where they lead. What eventually happens is that you live a meaningful enough life, each of these things you left behind become attachments. You start hanging on pathetically wishing you could be with your Mona Lisa or Oracle of Tao or 9th Symphony forever. But you can't take it with you. As you said, dead is dead. Death is final. And no matter what you did, you wasted it.

If there is only life and death, how difficult it is to live rightly. You wouldn't get it right, even if you were like the Buddhists described and had retries or rebirths. Not even with a thousand of them. Even secular people need a savior, a friend or family member to say "You know, if you keep drinking, you're gonna wreck your stomach."
And as you study spirituality, you discover you need a Saviour. You need a Saviour because each religious path, leads you part of the way, then without a spirit guide, you get stuck. Buddhism, without a bodhisatva, means you stumble about trying to understand thousands of sutras to determine the correct path. To live according to the Law in Jewish faith is usually to die condemned by it. Even the Pharisees who scrupulously tried to obey the law wound up as hypocrites. Islam? They have no hope of a Savior so they live their life trying to measure up. Did I pray enough times? Did I give enouvh alms? That's if they don't swallow the line that "good" Muslims are those like Osama, and blow themselves up. And if you're syncretic like me, you can get confused by conflicting teachings. Or you can get so caught up in theoretical knowledge that you forget to live.

A savior isn't just some supernatural concept. On the most basic level, if you had good friends on the middle one, that you were in debt and worn out from partying wouldn't matter. Same for the first one. If you had a very ordinary life but plenty of friends, your life would be okay. Let's not talk about that last one with friends. The problem there is too much attachment. There you need a good teacher for how to let go.

 

[Samantha Rinne]

Oh yeah, and there was a fourth option. Supposing you try to stay young, playing things as safe as possible. Bargaining everything on the latest fad medicine or whatever. Just a bit more time, if I wear this mask or drink this potion, or eat this supplement. You live and die like the Shadow Man.

 

[Aupmanyav]

My Deeds.

 

[Riders]

Well I believe like Baha'is do, saviors are reincarnations of each other.

 

[Riders]

Jesus, Hare Krishna, Budda,Moses etc all the same

 

[Suave]

Who is your Savior? And saving you from what?

Note 1: Speak for yourself, try not to generalize or speak for others - let's leave that to ***
Note 2: Use your own words, not copy/paste verses from Bible or other Scriptures
Note 3: This is not restricted to Theists only of course

Best known is Jesus whom Christians believe/know will save them from their sins
Less known are other Saviors who also claim to save them from ***
Well known is Trump I will save you from ******

Do you need a mediator?

American revolutionary socialism is my lord and savior, saving us from social injustices and economic disparities.

 

[Kenny]

LOL - let's go from the easiest to the hardest.

Deuteronomy/6:5: You shall love your God, with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your might.
matthew/22-37: Jesus declared, “ ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’

Of course, there are varying views because no one knows best what the writer was thinking than the writer himself/herself!

Deut is very specific and has the heart (spirit) soul (mind, will and emotions) -

strength in the Hebrew means exceedingly, up to abundance, to a great degree, exceedingly, with muchness, muchness

Jesus makes a separation of soul and mind - which makes sense with the definition of Hebrew. Not just with the mind, soul and emotions but in the degree of exceedingly with muchness!

So your comment below about the mind would be right! WOOHOO!

*) Jesus says that I should love God with "all my heart" + "all my soul" + all my mind" (makes more sense than with all your might")
3) "all my mind" is the easiest one. Mind = bundle of thoughts, so I should "think lovingly of God 24/7" (simple, though not easy)
2) "all my heart" gets tougher. Heart = seat of feelings/emotions, so I should "desire Love towards God 24/7" (simple, still not easy)
1) "all my soul" the hardest. Soul = individual realization, so I should "merge in God (His Love) 24/7" (quite a few obstacles to remove)

The spirit - the center of all physical and spiritual life - also includes feeling and emotions as you say. Every part (whether spirit, soul or body) has feelings and emotions.

And, as you said "quite a few obstacles to remove" - a lifelong journey of experiencing His transformational capacity working in our lives. Love covers our shortcomings and gives us a helping had to move forward.

I love your 3 points! As a matter of fact, it gives me pause to meditate on. (Maybe a perspective I that has much merit that I haven't seen)

IMO: Soul is the toughest one:
*) The Bible talks about "7 Spirits of God" and the "Spirit of God" and about "Holy Spirit" (how we might communicate)
*) People talk about "twin soul" sometimes, so that can't be anything close to God (see 2+3), unless God is your twin soul
*) Jesus might be a good example. First He said "I am a messenger of God", later "I am a son of God", finally "I and My Father are One"

As you said, defining correctly the soul vs spirit can be complicated. I liken it to trying to define the whole body of man in the 1400's - limited knowledge and information.

Although in Revelation it does mention it, it doesn't really define it and so we have varying interpretations. Revelation is full of pictures and many times cannot be taken literally as they can be metaphorical.

Some say the number 7 is the number of completion and perfectness representing the Holy Spirit.

Some tie it to Isaiah 11 where they synthesize it to being the Holy Spirit's complete capacity as the Spirit of the Lord, the Spirit of Wisdom, the Spirit of Understanding, the Spirit of Counsel, the Spirit of Might, the Spirit of Knowledge, and the Spirit of the Fear of the Lord. - but that isn't quite clear either.

"As I understand it", soul is the connector between the spirit and the body of man. When God speaks, He actually speaks to our spirit - Spirit to spirit - and the soul derives the understanding.

 

[Kenny]

You did not muddy things up. You actually gave some nice and inspiring examples

Very true. Loosing our innocence is a big one. Solution is simple, if I understand you correctly, we should stop doing consciously do wrong

A big loss. I even see it between 2 humans. Impure persons try dragging down pure persons, because seeing their own impurity hurts

Just a caveat for Christian believers... we will still miss the mark anyone, but now that we are joined by His Spirit, our relationship remains. Fellowship can be hindered, but relationship never changes. That is why "When you sin, confess your fault and he is faithful and just to forgive you and cleanse you from all unrighteousness" restoring fellowship though relationship remains intact.

 

[SalixIncendium]

I do not have or need a savior.

I have nothing from which to be saved.

 

[Kenny]

I used tarnished, because you mentioned "saving us from sin". But a tarnished soul feels weird. I rather would say "lack of awareness from the truth that is already in us, ready to be seen". Also "as He wanted it" would suggest that God has a desire, which is hard to believe for me, as His thought/word materializes instantly. But I could say "as I (being aware of being separated) want it" (not to be separated anymore)

Love the way you express it. Jesus said he was anointed to "open blind eyes" - so that we can be "aware of our need to be united with God?"

Yes, the love of God for His creation is so great it is hard to grasp. It is a beautiful to "to come home to His family" and be part of that family.

You mentioned before "We consciously do wrong and we loose our innocence" + "Because God is sinless, our connection or oneness with him is lost.". This gives me the feeling that our spirit is never tarnished, but due to "doing wrong" we feel just disconnected. "Rebirthed to a perfect spirit" gives me the feeling that "spirit was temporary not perfect". So kind of tarnished, hence I think you meant it figuratively. I have done rebirthing and that removed blocks after which I felt better connected. So after "spirit rebirthing" we are aware again. Because IMO spirit can't be disconnected; we are just not aware.

Does this still make sense. Seeing it from different angles, and different words/languages does give me more "feeling" about this unfathomable mystery, which is impossible to describe using words, although words seem useful, to some extend, to poke some interest to go beyond words.

I would differ on this one as a Christian. (tarnishing is just fine - just never heard that way before). I would say we were disconnected spiritually and, as Jesus would say it, a rebirth is necessary. Physically, we carry the traits of our parents, being born-again - or rebirthed - is where we now have the traits of God.

Could it be that what you are talking about is about renewing the spirit of our mind or our thought process? Rebirthing our thinking so that it better reflects God?

Are you saying that those Christians will never have the "feeling" again, that they have sinned. Or that those Christians never sin again?

No. Certainly Christians sin (that is self evident). But the part that sins is not the spirit but rather the soul and body. The spirit remains sinless - because it is united with God who continually forgives and continually applies the washing that the shed blood of Jesus provides

Condemnation would be the "feeling" that we can feel when we sin. But we always reach back to the realities of what has been given and reach for the place of "There is now, therefore, no condemnation to those which are in Jesus Christ..."

Some say "yes", but later they let go of God, maybe even become Anti-theist, or even start sinning again. Does the above still apply to them?

For us, there is a place where one can decide to divorce God again. Many times they become the most ardent ANTI-theist. Not all atheists qualify--but some may be just that. But it takes a lot to reach that place IMO

I have a different view about "Soul". I see it in connection with "Awareness". Emotions in the heart muddy my awareness, hence it seems that "my soul is disconnected", whereas in my view my focus is a bit off; but it's mainly difference of definitions. I do think I have a better picture now

So, thanks for all the feedback

I have truly enjoyed the sharing. Appreciate your openness and the quality of your individuality.

 

[stvdv]

So your comment below about the mind would be right! WOOHOO!

Some say the number 7 is the number of completion and perfectness representing the Holy Spirit.

Some tie it to Isaiah 11 where they synthesize it to being the Holy Spirit's complete capacity as the Spirit of the Lord, the Spirit of Wisdom, the Spirit of Understanding, the Spirit of Counsel, the Spirit of Might, the Spirit of Knowledge, and the Spirit of the Fear of the Lord. - but that isn't quite clear either.

"As I understand it", soul is the connector between the spirit and the body of man. When God speaks, He actually speaks to our spirit - Spirit to spirit - and the soul derives the understanding.

Thank you. This makes sense to me, coming from Hindu wisdom. I saw it myself when googling, but now rereading the coin fell.

As a little boy Sampson fascinated me, I did not want my hair cut. Especially the number 7, and losing power when hair was cut

Hearing in India about the 7 chakras I saw a connection

Now you give Biblical verses (East meets West):
1) Spirit of the Lord (Crown Chakra)
2) Spirit of Wisdom (Third Eye Chakra)
3) Spirit of Understanding (Throat Chakra)
4) Spirit of Counsel (Heart Chakra)
5) Spirit of Might (Solar Plexus Chakra)
6) Spirit of Knowledge (Sacral Chakra)
7) Spirit of the Fear of the Lord (Root Chakra)

 

[stvdv]

Just a caveat for Christian believers... we will still miss the mark anyone, but now that we are joined by His Spirit, our relationship remains. Fellowship can be hindered, but relationship never changes. That is why "When you sin, confess your fault and he is faithful and just to forgive you and cleanse you from all unrighteousness" restoring fellowship though relationship remains intact.

When you sin and hurt others, I guess you first should ask forgiveness from the person your have hurt; not just from God, correct?