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Who is the true church?

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by phernduke, May 16, 2005.

  1. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    NetDoc,

    Maybe we're just defining our terms differently. When I think of "rules," I think "commandments." The following verses, among others, are all taken from the New Testament as opposed to the Old Testament:

    Matthew 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

    John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

    John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

    John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

    1 Corinthians 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

    1 John 2:3-4 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

    1 John 3:22,24 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

    John 5:2-3 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

    I'm not trying to minimize the importance of the two greatest commandments (loving God and loving our fellow man), but there are commandments other than these, and we as Christians are expected to keep them -- all of them. So, either you disagree, and simply gloss over such verses, or you agree but don't consider commandments to be rules. I'm curious... Which is it?

    By the way, I also consider sacraments and ordinances to have been initiated by Jesus Christ. Consequently, I consider receiving them to be part of what is meant by keeping His commandments.

    Kathryn
     
  2. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    I would suggest that when Jesus said "my commandments", he meant just two.

    Specific commandments were part and parcel of the first covenent.

    A new heart was the focus of the second.

    If you get the heart right, then the commandments will also be followed. Not out of legalism, but from the desire of the heart to love God and to love others.
     
  3. Yami

    Yami New Member

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    There is no true church...but rather those who really believe in Jesus are part of that true Church. There is no gathering together of only Catholcis or Proterstant who will be the only church...but rather i bleive that Protestants...Orthodox and Catholics(whom have really accepted Jesus) will be part of the Church. NOT A SINGLE DENOMINATION
     
  4. greatcalgarian

    greatcalgarian Well-Known Member

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    [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
    [/font]

    [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Then Unitarian is the true church:D [/font]
    [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
    [/font]
     
  5. Merlin

    Merlin Active Member

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    I have just started a thread on this subject, but in a much wider context. All the 'churches' to which you refer are 'sub-sects' of the main religion - i.e the belief in the God of Abraham.

    Three of the world's main religious groups, namely the Jews, the Christians, and the Moslems, all share the same God. This is the God of Abraham as revealed in Genesis. Some later split off from the Jewish faith to follow the teachings of somebody they believe was the Messiah (the Christians), and then later a further group split off to follow the teachings of someone they believe was a divinely inspired Prophet (the Moslems).



    If these three major groupings all believe in the same One True God, why do they argue so much about the messenger? Surely, whatever route people take to find their own personal communion with this same God is irrelevant. The most important thing is to get there surely!



    What do you think?



    Merlin
     
  6. glasgowchick

    glasgowchick Gives Glory to God !!!

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    Hi ND, You took the words right out of my mouth.. :)
     
  7. sandy whitelinger

    sandy whitelinger Veteran Member

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    I believe the true church would be "The Church of the Sacred Bleeding Hearts" located somewhere in Los Angeles. If you send them $10 all of your dreams will come true.
     
  8. Bennettresearch

    Bennettresearch Politically Incorrect

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    Hi everyone,

    Real interesting thread. As to the true Church, it can only be Jesus. Where we have so much division is that since Jesus was taken out before He had a successful ministry, That it was those that came after who ended up defining the Church. Can we say truly say that from the first century onward that anyone really had it right? I look to the number of sects of Christianity and the answer is evidently NOT YET!

    I think this is the main reason why I remain a non-sectarian. Jesus was talking about a religion that you can take with you wherever you are and doesn't require any kind of congregation or building to exist. So I am a follower of Jesus but I certainly don't have all of the answers. I look at the sects of Chrisitanity as different attempts to quantify and delineate just what Christianity really is. And so, all of the viewpoints I encounter are processed in my mind as different facets of mankind's (not leaving out women here) search for the truth.
     
  9. nutshell

    nutshell Well-Known Member

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    That's right. Jesus did establish the Church, but that Church fell away as was prophesied. However, because of a loving God, the living Christ himself has restored his Church through a modern-day prophet so that the one church, one faith, one baptism may again exist upon the earth.
     
  10. Halcyon

    Halcyon Lord of the Badgers

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    If historical evidence is anything to go by the true church died at thousands of years ago.

    The 'Jerusalem Church' led by James the Just, the brother of Jesus, was Jesus's legacy. Unfortunately, after the Jews lost their war against the Roman occupation, Pauline Christianity had become very numerous thanks to its policy of accepting Gentiles as well as Jews. The scattered members of the Jerusalem Chuch were branded heretics (a tactic employed time and again by Paul's chruch to eliminate any competition) and exterminated.

    So now we have Paul's Church rather than Jesus's church. Wherever you look, whichever denomination you try, you're never gonna find that true church its gone for good :( .

    http://http://members.tripod.com/~ebionite/mac15.htm

    (Thanks to Deut for the link, a fascinating read)
     
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  11. Merlin

    Merlin Active Member

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    How do you define 'True' anyway? Who decides and by what criteria?
     
  12. Merlin

    Merlin Active Member

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    All religions are there to 'bring people into the world of God'. So why does the intervening scripture and worship format matter. If any religion achieves that, it must be a 'true' one.
     
  13. Merlin

    Merlin Active Member

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    WE cannot agree which is the true church, unless we can agree the purpose of having any church. Why is any church there? What are its objectives. If it is 'successful', what will it have achieved.
     
  14. Kowalski

    Kowalski Active Member

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    The cosmos is the true Church of Man, and the Cosmos is mostly nothing, empty space.

    Cheers

    K
     
  15. huajiro

    huajiro Well-Known Member

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    The true Church is the one that tolerates other churches, without insecurity. The true Church realized that you will find it, because it is the "True Church", therefore it doesn't revert to having its followers kill, intimidate, or judge people from the other churches.
     
  16. Bennettresearch

    Bennettresearch Politically Incorrect

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    Hi Halcyon,

    Well, I would disagree on one point, and that is that James didn't necessarily have it right nor did he manage to keep himself from being buried into history. But I think that we agree that we don't have a true authoritative group of writings by either Jesus Himself, or any of the original apostles. I don't see Paul ever quoting Jesus in his letters exept for his "vision" on the road to Damascus.

    As to a reference to Philadelphia, this could very well have been a church that had the facts about Jesus and was doing a good job in His eyes. What happened to it?
     
  17. Snowbear

    Snowbear Nita Okhata

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    Huh? I don't get it... how was Jesus' ministry unsuccessful?
    Though He was 'taken out' as you say, His crucifiction and resurrection were the culmination of His purpose for being here as a man... to pay the penalty for all of our sins. Along the way, He ministered to thousands who 'converted' into the believers who ultimately became the 'church.'

    As for the definition of the true church, how about Jesus' definition:
     
  18. greatcalgarian

    greatcalgarian Well-Known Member

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    Jesus did not establish the current church. Paul and Cosntantine did.
     
  19. Bennettresearch

    Bennettresearch Politically Incorrect

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    Thank you greatc,

    That was very concisely my point. The true church would be Jesus and we don't have a definitive example of just what that would be.:)
     
  20. Searcher of Light

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    Ultimately, we wont be able to know what the True Church is until we all see God face to face. It is for Him to decide who is right or wrong not us with our limited and biased viewpoints. Although, I believe the simple and humble church established in Acts 2 and nurtured by the apostles is the true church.
     
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