Who is the true church?

[Katzpur]

It's funny,

but I don't see where the word "sacraments" or "holy ordinances" are used. I do see that we have been freed from the written laws:

II Corinthians 3:2 You yourselves are our letter, written on our hearts, known and read by everybody. 3 You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts. 4 Such confidence as this is ours through Christ before God.

Colossians 2:13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross. 16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

The "written code" is gone. It is for freedom that I have been set free... don't try to enslave me again!

A Christian is to live by faith. Not by rules.

NetDoc,

Maybe we're just defining our terms differently. When I think of "rules," I think "commandments." The following verses, among others, are all taken from the New Testament as opposed to the Old Testament:

Matthew 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

1 Corinthians 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

1 John 2:3-4 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1 John 3:22,24 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

John 5:2-3 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

I'm not trying to minimize the importance of the two greatest commandments (loving God and loving our fellow man), but there are commandments other than these, and we as Christians are expected to keep them -- all of them. So, either you disagree, and simply gloss over such verses, or you agree but don't consider commandments to be rules. I'm curious... Which is it?

By the way, I also consider sacraments and ordinances to have been initiated by Jesus Christ. Consequently, I consider receiving them to be part of what is meant by keeping His commandments.

Kathryn
http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=DIV2&byte=5412534

 

[Scuba Pete]

I would suggest that when Jesus said "my commandments", he meant just two.

Specific commandments were part and parcel of the first covenent.

A new heart was the focus of the second.

If you get the heart right, then the commandments will also be followed. Not out of legalism, but from the desire of the heart to love God and to love others.

 

[Yami]

There is no true church...but rather those who really believe in Jesus are part of that true Church. There is no gathering together of only Catholcis or Proterstant who will be the only church...but rather i bleive that Protestants...Orthodox and Catholics(whom have really accepted Jesus) will be part of the Church. NOT A SINGLE DENOMINATION

 

[greatcalgarian]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Yami:NOT A SINGLE DENOMINATION[/font]

[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Then Unitarian is the true church [/font]
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]

There are no set forms for Unitarian services of worship. There is instead a coming together of people to acknowledge what they share together, to celebrate their differences, and to search for the elusive truth. For Unitarians ethical living is the supreme witness of their religion.

[/font]

 

[Merlin]

I have just started a thread on this subject, but in a much wider context. All the 'churches' to which you refer are 'sub-sects' of the main religion - i.e the belief in the God of Abraham.

Three of the world's main religious groups, namely the Jews, the Christians, and the Moslems, all share the same God. This is the God of Abraham as revealed in Genesis. Some later split off from the Jewish faith to follow the teachings of somebody they believe was the Messiah (the Christians), and then later a further group split off to follow the teachings of someone they believe was a divinely inspired Prophet (the Moslems).



If these three major groupings all believe in the same One True God, why do they argue so much about the messenger? Surely, whatever route people take to find their own personal communion with this same God is irrelevant. The most important thing is to get there surely!



What do you think?



Merlin

 

[glasgowchick]

The only church is described in Acts. We need only follow the guide therein.

Hi ND, You took the words right out of my mouth..

 

[sandy whitelinger]

I believe the true church would be "The Church of the Sacred Bleeding Hearts" located somewhere in Los Angeles. If you send them $10 all of your dreams will come true.

 

[Bennettresearch]

Hi everyone,

Real interesting thread. As to the true Church, it can only be Jesus. Where we have so much division is that since Jesus was taken out before He had a successful ministry, That it was those that came after who ended up defining the Church. Can we say truly say that from the first century onward that anyone really had it right? I look to the number of sects of Christianity and the answer is evidently NOT YET!

I think this is the main reason why I remain a non-sectarian. Jesus was talking about a religion that you can take with you wherever you are and doesn't require any kind of congregation or building to exist. So I am a follower of Jesus but I certainly don't have all of the answers. I look at the sects of Chrisitanity as different attempts to quantify and delineate just what Christianity really is. And so, all of the viewpoints I encounter are processed in my mind as different facets of mankind's (not leaving out women here) search for the truth.

 

[nutshell]

Wow I must say this is one of my better posts, less virtual blood shed!!

Now, yes Jesus did establish the Church, yet he didn't establish the Lutherans, or the Brethren or mormons. He established a universal church, a one church, one faith, one baptism, like you said.

-Chris

That's right. Jesus did establish the Church, but that Church fell away as was prophesied. However, because of a loving God, the living Christ himself has restored his Church through a modern-day prophet so that the one church, one faith, one baptism may again exist upon the earth.

 

[Halcyon]

If historical evidence is anything to go by the true church died at thousands of years ago.

The 'Jerusalem Church' led by James the Just, the brother of Jesus, was Jesus's legacy. Unfortunately, after the Jews lost their war against the Roman occupation, Pauline Christianity had become very numerous thanks to its policy of accepting Gentiles as well as Jews. The scattered members of the Jerusalem Chuch were branded heretics (a tactic employed time and again by Paul's chruch to eliminate any competition) and exterminated.

So now we have Paul's Church rather than Jesus's church. Wherever you look, whichever denomination you try, you're never gonna find that true church its gone for good .

http://http://members.tripod.com/~ebionite/mac15.htm

(Thanks to Deut for the link, a fascinating read)

 

[Merlin]

How do you define 'True' anyway? Who decides and by what criteria?

 

[Merlin]

All religions are there to 'bring people into the world of God'. So why does the intervening scripture and worship format matter. If any religion achieves that, it must be a 'true' one.

 

[Merlin]

WE cannot agree which is the true church, unless we can agree the purpose of having any church. Why is any church there? What are its objectives. If it is 'successful', what will it have achieved.

 

[Kowalski]

The cosmos is the true Church of Man, and the Cosmos is mostly nothing, empty space.

Cheers

K

 

[huajiro]

Many different religions claim to be the true Church, under Armstrong teachings and fellow founder Gerald Flurry, he believes the Phildelphia Church of God is the true church, and being saved is null, unless you are a member of his church, mormons, and jehovah witness are also in the same boat.

What are your views of which is the true church and why?

What is the true religion and why?

or is religion a sin, for Paul wrote some say they are of Apollos or of Cephas, but they were not crucified for them, but Christ, so why all the diversity, should then, there be not just one church?

A kilikos, as in Greek meaning universal church?

The true Church is the one that tolerates other churches, without insecurity. The true Church realized that you will find it, because it is the "True Church", therefore it doesn't revert to having its followers kill, intimidate, or judge people from the other churches.

 

[Bennettresearch]

Hi Halcyon,

Well, I would disagree on one point, and that is that James didn't necessarily have it right nor did he manage to keep himself from being buried into history. But I think that we agree that we don't have a true authoritative group of writings by either Jesus Himself, or any of the original apostles. I don't see Paul ever quoting Jesus in his letters exept for his "vision" on the road to Damascus.

As to a reference to Philadelphia, this could very well have been a church that had the facts about Jesus and was doing a good job in His eyes. What happened to it?

 

[Snowbear]

...Where we have so much division is that since Jesus was taken out before He had a successful ministry....

Huh? I don't get it... how was Jesus' ministry unsuccessful?
Though He was 'taken out' as you say, His crucifiction and resurrection were the culmination of His purpose for being here as a man... to pay the penalty for all of our sins. Along the way, He ministered to thousands who 'converted' into the believers who ultimately became the 'church.'

As for the definition of the true church, how about Jesus' definition:

19 “Again I say to you that if two of you agree on earth concerning anything that they ask, it will be done for them by My Father in heaven. 20 For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.”

 

[greatcalgarian]

Huh? I don't get it... how was Jesus' ministry unsuccessful?
Though He was 'taken out' as you say, His crucifiction and resurrection were the culmination of His purpose for being here as a man... to pay the penalty for all of our sins. Along the way, He ministered to thousands who 'converted' into the believers who ultimately became the 'church.'

As for the definition of the true church, how about Jesus' definition:

Jesus did not establish the current church. Paul and Cosntantine did.

 

[Bennettresearch]

Jesus did not establish the current church. Paul and Cosntantine did.

Thank you greatc,

That was very concisely my point. The true church would be Jesus and we don't have a definitive example of just what that would be.

 

[Searcher of Light]

Ultimately, we wont be able to know what the True Church is until we all see God face to face. It is for Him to decide who is right or wrong not us with our limited and biased viewpoints. Although, I believe the simple and humble church established in Acts 2 and nurtured by the apostles is the true church.