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Who is the true church?

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by phernduke, May 16, 2005.

  1. stonestew

    stonestew Member

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    As i finished this thread ,this quote is what I was thinking.
     
  2. stonestew

    stonestew Member

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    Yes. This is what ker meant ,religious freedom. The seperation ot the church and state.
     
  3. greatcalgarian

    greatcalgarian Well-Known Member

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    But my mathemetics have been proven wrong by SOGFPP:149:
     
  4. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    so who is the true followers of Jesus christ ,it must be the one doing the will of God

    1. The true religion worships the only true God, Jehovah.—Deuteronomy 6:4, 5; Psalm 146:5-10; Matthew 22:37, 38.

    2. The true religion offers access to God by means of Christ Jesus.—John 17:3, 6-8; 1 Timothy 2:5, 6; 1 John 4:15

    3. The true religion teaches and practices unselfish love.—John 13:34, 35; 1 Corinthians 13:1-8; 1 John 3:10-12.

    4. The true religion remains untainted by worldly politics and conflicts. It is neutral in time of war.—John 18:36; James 1:27.

    5. The true religion lets God be true by accepting the Bible as God’s Word.—Romans 3:3, 4; 2 Timothy 3:16, 17; 1 Thessalonians 2:13.

    6. The true religion does not condone war or personal violence.—Micah 4:2-4; Romans 12:17-21; Colossians 3:12-14.

    7. The true religion successfully unites people of every race, language, and tribe. It does not preach nationalism or hatred, but love.—Isaiah 2:2-4; Colossians 3:10, 11; Revelation 7:9, 10.

    8. The true religion advocates serving God, not for selfish gain or a salary, but out of love. It does not glorify men. It glorifies God.—1 Peter 5:1-4; 1 Corinthians 9:18; Matthew 23:5-12.

    9. The true religion proclaims the Kingdom of God as man’s sure hope, not some political or social philosophy.—Mark 13:10; Acts 8:12; 28:23, 30, 31

    10. The true religion teaches the truth regarding God’s purpose for man and the earth. It does not teach the religious lies of immortal soul and eternal torment in hell. It teaches that God is love.—Judges 16:30; Isaiah 45:12, 18; Matthew 5:5; 1 John 4:7-11; Revelation 20:13, 14

     
  5. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Hi, May.

    I would agree with most of your ten "requirements" of the true Church -- at least with some qualifications. Specifically, I would go along fully with numbers 2, 3, 5, 7, 8 and 9.

    I would agree with number 1, except that you and I have different understandings as to who Jehovah is. I would agree with your first sentence in item number 4, but must disagree with your second sentence. The same holds true with respect to item number 6. I believe you've oversimplified this issue. Regarding item number 10, I agree with your first and third sentence but strenuously disagree with the second one.

    I'd like to add another couple of points that no one else has mentioned.

    Ephesians 4:11-14 states: And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: that we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive…

    The true Church must operate under the same authority and organization as the Church Jesus Christ himself established. He built His Church on a foundation of prophets and apostles. These men were specifically called and ordained by Him. They alone held the authority to officiate in the ordinances of His gospel after His death. From Paul's statement, we learn that this organization was intended to last until we all come in the unity of the faith. The true Church, therefore, cannot exist without prophetic guidance and apostolic authority. Apostolic authority cannot exist in the absence of apostles, and prophesy ceases to exist without a living prophet. To assume that it can is, in my opinion, ignoring one of the most basic doctrines of all.

    Kathryn
     
  6. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    In this time of the end, Christ has appointed the collective "faithful and discreet slave" over "all his belongings," or Kingdom interests on earth. (Matthew 24:45-47) jesus himself spoke of this slave class

    When Jesus’ presence began in 1914, did he find a group of anointed Christians who were faithfully dispensing food at the proper time? He certainly did. This group could be clearly identified because of the fine fruitage that it was producing. (Matthew 7:20)

     
  7. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    And just how did He "appoint" them? Did He lay His hands on their heads and ordain them, giving them the authority to act in His name?

    You are, of course, obviously aware that I see nothing of any significance as having taken place in 1914. While there were undoubtedly good Christians on the earth at that time, I certainly don't believe that they had any kind of monopoly of "fine fruitage."
     
  8. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    The appointed time for the nations to rule without interruption by God came to an end in 1914. (Luke 21:24) Then, right on time, the woman bears her child: "And she gave birth to a son, a male, who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod. And her child was caught away to God and to his throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and sixty days." (Revelation 12:5, 6) this is the birth of Gods kingdom in the heavens with Jesus being made king of it . the male child is not jesus but it is the kingdom itself, it was caught away to God because now it has Jehovahs protection

     
  9. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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  10. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    (Psalm 37:29) The righteous themselves will possess the earth, And they will reside forever upon it

    Furthermore, the world is passing away and so is its desire, but he that does the will of God remains forever(1john 2;17) so again the bible tells us that it is those doing the will of God that have his favour
    By this all will know that YOU are my disciples, if YOU have love among yourselves(john 13;35)


     
  11. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    I'm sorry...

    The church is not NEARLY as complicated as many would have you believe.

    There are really only two laws that it follows: Love God & Love everyone else.

    There is only one way to figure it out: Love for one another.

    Any church that is centered around rules, and NOT Love has completely missed the point.
     
  12. Prima

    Prima Well-Known Member

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    As a matter of interest, one of the qualifications for a group to be considered a 'cult' is that they call themselves the 'true' church and denounce all other religions as false.

    Not saying that anyone saying that is in a cult, just that it's one of the criteria. I find that interesting.
     
  13. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Hi, NetDoc.

    I'm not sure why you see the presence of "rules" as making the Church "complicated." Jesus definitely established His Church according to a specific organization. There is always order to anything God does, and the way His Church was designed to function is no exception. He gave certain individuals the authority to preside and to officiate in the holy ordinances (i.e. sacraments) of the Church. He also taught numerous doctrines which (while maybe not as basic as those which tell us to love God and our neighbor) are also important. If they weren't, Jesus wouldn't have wasted His time teaching them.

    To say that any Church that has rules, structure, a heirarchy, etc. is "missing the point," is, in my opinion, ignoring some very important issues. Essentially, every one of the 30,000+ Christian denominations in the world today (plus a great many non-Christian religions) teach a gospel of love (at least in theory). But many of them differ on numerous other basic doctrines -- from the necessity for baptism to how one is saved to the nature of God himself. All of these Churches can't be said to be "true" when they agree on only one item of doctrine.

    I understand what you're saying, Prima, but in my opinion, the word "cult" has such a vague, nondescript meaning that I pretty much try to avoid it at all costs. For instance, Christianity as a whole -- even though it is the single largest Church in the world today -- was, at its inception, considered to be a cult. Why? Because it called itself the "true" Church and said all others were false.

    I have found the following definitions of the word "cult" particulary accurate:

    "A cult is the church down the street from yours."

    "If you believe in it, it is a religion or perhaps 'the' religion; and if you do not care one way or another about it, it is a sect; but if you fear and hate it, it is a cult."

    "A cult is a religion (usually smaller and new than mine) that I don't like.

    In my experience, when someone uses the word "cult" is usually says more about them than the group. I find that the word has little use outside of religious mudslinging. (Please don't think I'm accusing you of that, because I'm not. :162: )

    Kathryn
     
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  14. DeepShadow

    DeepShadow White Crow

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    I'm confused. I don't see why rules and love are contradictory, but I'm not sure that's what NetDoc was saying....

    Can't you have a church that is centered on love but still has rules?
     
  15. DeepShadow

    DeepShadow White Crow

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    That is interesting. What are some of the other criteria?
     
  16. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    It's funny,

    but I don't see where the word "sacraments" or "holy ordinances" are used. I do see that we have been freed from the written laws:

    II Corinthians 3:2 You yourselves are our letter, written on our hearts, known and read by everybody. 3 You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts. 4 Such confidence as this is ours through Christ before God.

    Colossians 2:13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross. 16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

    The "written code" is gone. It is for freedom that I have been set free... don't try to enslave me again!

    A Christian is to live by faith. Not by rules.
     
  17. Truth101

    Truth101 Member

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    This forum is really messed up. Ive tried to sending a post numerous times and it keep timing out if you will and all my hardwork of writing and providing scripture disapears and nothing. ive been on hear for 2 hours and havent been able to post a thing. So thatnks anyway administrator but this is anoying.
     
  18. Truth101

    Truth101 Member

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    Ok good luck everyone im out.:eek:
     
  19. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    Your posting seems to work fine... at least your complaining makes it through!
     
  20. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    Truth, if you are being 'timed out' as you seem to think (though that has never happened to me, as far as I know), why don't you prepare your post on notepad ?- when you are ready to post, just paste and copy.:)
     
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