Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Where in John?
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Who is the Son of man who will come in the clouds of heaven?
- Thread starter Trailblazer
- Start date
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Why would I bother when you keep saying it is all nonsense?
Besides, I certainly am not trying to convince you of anything.
That is why people debate....
Interesting, but sorry, I don’t think that is about the throne of Messiah.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Then whose throne was it?
Jesus is not going to return and be the Messiah, unless He lied or the NT is in error.
John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
How does that fit with the Elam prophecy?East of the Holy LandJerusalem became the centre of Christianity.
The New Jerusalem is Haifa, the centre of the Baha'i Faith.
Regards Tony
The first place for pilgrimage in the future will be Elam. The birth place of the Bab and Baha'u'llah.
I long to visit those places and people from all the world will flock to visit the birthplace of the Twin Prophets.
Regards Tony
It only seems to be God’s thrown, but I don’t know who sits on it.
Jesus has not said that he will not return.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Then how do you know it is not Baha'u'llah, who claimed to come in the station of the Father?
Jesus did say that He would not return to this world.
The world will not see Jesus again because Jesus will not be in the world again.
John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
Not only that, but Jesus never said He would return, not anywhere in the NT.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
The map also has a place called Persia in it. Are you sure the birth places of The Bab and Baha'u'llah were in Elam? Or were they cities in Persia? Oh and you don't find all this fuss over a birthplace is a little weird? What do you expect to see there? Will Baha'i make statues in their honor also? And then, will people start venerating these things kind of like how some Christians venerate statues of Jesus and Mary? And "Twin" prophets? So which one was the Messiah? One of them or both?
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
In Revelation I posted all the verses that say that the "Lamb" will return and be on the throne. The "Lamb" seems to me to be Jesus. As far as I know, they don't have any official Baha'i reference to Baha'u'llah or The Bab being the Lamb of God. One Baha'i thinks that the "Lamb that was slain" is The Bab and not Jesus, because Jesus was "crucified" not "slain" whereas The Bab was shot by a firing squad. But either way, everybody in every religion sees things the way they want to see things. And it's virtually impossible to convince them otherwise.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
In reading the NT, it sure seems to imply it is Jesus coming back. Not some guy from Persia. And especially not two guys from Persia. To make the Baha'i story work, they have to have a dead Jesus. His work is finished. He is no longer in the world. Any verse that has Jesus returning is discounted. And I posted a few, but they find ways to nullify them. Yet, the verses they take mean exactly what they say, literally. But, a Jesus that came back to life from the dead? No, they say, those verses are not to be taken literal. If I go I will come back? No, that's not literal. They have created their own version of "true" Christianity that has a dead Jesus and no Satan. And it has a symbolic Creation story and resurrection. Jesus is not the only way, but was the "way" for a while. Until Muhammad came and brought new teachings from God. And in their Christianity, Jesus has already returned. But not Jesus, but instead... the "Spirit" of Christ. They believe in Jesus, but not the Jesus you believe in.
Better to say Iran and Iraq as the modern Names is where these events took place in the past.
I do not see any of this as weird as personally it is a way of acknowledging the wrongs done to all the Messengers of God and proves to the world who are the true rulers of humanity.
I see Iraq and Iran will have glorious futures along with Israel.
Idols are no longer worshipped.
Regards Tony
It has no biblical support, that is why I don’t think so.
Sorry, those are not the same as saying “I will not return”. Jesus said he would return, for example here:
Therefore also be ready, for in an hour that you don't expect, the Son of Man will come.
Matt. 24:44
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Baha'u'llah does have biblical support, since He was the fulfillment of the Bible prophecies for the coming of the Messiah and the return of Christ. How those prophecies were fulfilled are explained in this book:
William Sears, Thief in the Night
If Jesus said He would be no more in the world and that the world would see Him no more, how could He return to the world in the same body, as Christians believe?
Jesus said that the Son of Man would come, He did not say that He would come.
The title ‘Son of man’ is symbolic of the perfect humanity that Jesus represented, but it does not apply exclusively to Jesus. It ultimately comes from the Book of Daniel, where it refers to the Messiah. It is a Baha’i teaching that the title applies to both Jesus and Baha’u’llah.
I believe that Baha’u’llah was one like the Son of man who came in the clouds of heaven.
Daniel 7:13-14 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Have you found a good explanation or interpretation that makes the "Lamb" in Revelation Baha'u'llah?
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I do not believe that it was Baha'u'llah. As I recall, Tony said it was the Bab. The Bab was slain.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Lets look at Daniel 7:13 in context. Daniel describes various animals. And there was this animal and it was this kingdm. And there was that animal and it was that kingdom. And then there was that other animal over there and it was that kingdom. So then there was one that was like a son of man... and context says taht it is a kingdom. Obviously it is referring to Israel.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
And Tony is an authoritative Baha'i spokesperson? No, I posted all the Lamb and Lamb that was slain references, it seems to be pointing to Jesus. And it is the Lamb that was worthy to open the seals, there is the Lamb's book of life, the Lamb is the one that returns, and is the one that sits with God on the throne. If not Jesus then it has to be Baha'u'llah, but no Baha'is has been able to find any "official" Baha'i writings on this. Maybe that Baha'i that wrote a book about Revelation... something about the apocalypse unsealed of something? I'll do a quick search and see what it says about the Lamb.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Rev 5... “Who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll?” “Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals.” Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing at the center of the throne... “Who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll?” I wept and wept because no one was found who was worthy to open the scroll or look inside.
Then one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals.”
Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing at the center of the throne...
“You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain.. “Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain..."
Rev 7 “Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.”
Rev 13 The beast was given ... authority for forty-two months... All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the Lamb’s book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.
Rev 14 I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads.
Rev 21 The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp. Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.
Rev 22 “Look, I am coming soon! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End... “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”
Then one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals.”
Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing at the center of the throne...
“You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain.. “Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain..."
Rev 7 “Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.”
Rev 13 The beast was given ... authority for forty-two months... All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the Lamb’s book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.
Rev 14 I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads.
Rev 21 The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp. Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.
Rev 22 “Look, I am coming soon! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End... “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”
The "Apocalypse Unsealed" says...
The Lion of the tribe of Judah is Baha'u'llah...
(Rev 6) I saw a Lamb
standing, as though it had been slain, with seven
horns and with seven eyes, which are the seven
spirits of God sent out into all the earth
The constellation Aries, the Ram or Lamb, was
originally the first to appear at the Vernal equinox. But
because of the Precession of the Equinoxes, the Lamb is always
"slain" for a new constellation at each new zodiacal age. And so
it is at a new spiritual Age, which is always accompanied by a
Sacrificial Figure, a "Lamb of God," a "leader of the flock," the
Sacrifice of the Covenant (Exodus 24:4-8).
In the last Chapter we discovered that the greatness of
Baha'u'llah's Dispensation requires an invisible zodiac of
twenty-four elders. Thus there are two of every type of elder
(Holy Figure), and, in particular, there are two Lambs in this
new Age. The two Lambs are the Bab and 'Abdu'l-Baha.
In verse 6 the Lamb stands (seemingly) as though it had been
slain. In verse 9 we learn that the Lamb has actually been
slain. The possible contradiction is resolved, of course, by the
fact that there are two Lambs in Baha'u'llah's Dispensation. The
first Lamb, the Bab, was literally slain in the public square of
Tabriz. The second Lamb, 'Abdu'l-Baha, was not slain in a
literal sense, and remains alive and well, to reappear as the Lamb of the new
Jerusalem in a later Chapter.
(Rev 6) I saw a Lamb
standing, as though it had been slain, with seven
horns and with seven eyes, which are the seven
spirits of God sent out into all the earth
The constellation Aries, the Ram or Lamb, was
originally the first to appear at the Vernal equinox. But
because of the Precession of the Equinoxes, the Lamb is always
"slain" for a new constellation at each new zodiacal age. And so
it is at a new spiritual Age, which is always accompanied by a
Sacrificial Figure, a "Lamb of God," a "leader of the flock," the
Sacrifice of the Covenant (Exodus 24:4-8).
In the last Chapter we discovered that the greatness of
Baha'u'llah's Dispensation requires an invisible zodiac of
twenty-four elders. Thus there are two of every type of elder
(Holy Figure), and, in particular, there are two Lambs in this
new Age. The two Lambs are the Bab and 'Abdu'l-Baha.
In verse 6 the Lamb stands (seemingly) as though it had been
slain. In verse 9 we learn that the Lamb has actually been
slain. The possible contradiction is resolved, of course, by the
fact that there are two Lambs in Baha'u'llah's Dispensation. The
first Lamb, the Bab, was literally slain in the public square of
Tabriz. The second Lamb, 'Abdu'l-Baha, was not slain in a
literal sense, and remains alive and well, to reappear as the Lamb of the new
Jerusalem in a later Chapter.
The author gets into a bunch of zodiac and constellation stuff. Is that something Baha'is are supposed to take seriously? But anyway, at least he tries to explain who the Lamb and the Lamb that was slain is. What do you think about what he says?
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Maybe the Lamb is Jesus, I do not know, but that does not mean that Jesus is going to be the one returning to earth.
That is never going to happen unless Jesus lied or unless the New Testament is in error; and if Jesus never said these things below, there is no reason to trust any of the New Testament, is there?
John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
If you are really interested in this topic I suggest you purchase the following book:
Apocalypse Secrets: Baha'i Interpretation of the Book of Revelation Paperback – January 23, 2011
https://www.amazon.com/Apocalypse-Secrets-Bahai-Interpretation-Revelation/dp/1456443623
"This lovely book is an illustrated interpretation of the Book of Revelation based on Baha'i sources revealing the Apocalypse as the story of seven Faiths and Empires whose materialism and militarism have caused the mess the world is in, specifically the apocalyptic war now waging between the Muslim Militarism of the Middle East and the Malignant Materialism of the Christian West. Its strikingly lively translation sticks to the intention of the Greek original. The original, rationally consistent, remarkably holistic, and comprehensively profound interpretation bridges religious faiths, transcends religious dogma, and explains nineteen centuries of troubled events in Christianity and Islam with clear insight. It supplies a template of understanding and global peace that will influence many future works. This book is must reading for anybody striving to penetrate the hidden secrets of the Apocalypse. Its readers will never look at the Apocalypse the same again."