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Featured Who is the Son of man who will come in the clouds of heaven?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Trailblazer, Aug 23, 2020.

  1. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Mark 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

    Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

    Matthew 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

    Mark 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.


    Christians believe that Jesus is the Son of man who will come in the clouds of heaven, but did anyone ever wonder why Jesus did not say “and then shall they see me coming in the clouds of heaven?” Jesus always referred to the Son of man in the third person.

    How do you write in 3rd person?

    Third person refers to people “on the outside.” You either write about someone by name or use third person pronouns. Third person pronouns include: he, she, it; his, her, its; him, her, it; himself, herself, itself; they; them; their; themselves.
    6 Ways to Write in Third Person - wikiHow


    Look carefully at Mark 8:38. Look at how the verse is separated by a semicolon and then Jesus says “of him also” indicating that the Son of man is someone other than Himself who would come in the glory of his Father.

    Mark 8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

    Again, in Matthew 16:27, Jesus said that the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father. Jesus did not say “I will come in the glory of my Father.”

    Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

    Look carefully at Luke 9:26. Look at how Jesus separated Himself from the Son of man (ashamed of me, of him shall), and then Jesus said that the Son of man shall come in his own glory and in His Father’s glory. Jesus did not say that the Son of man will come in my glory.

    Luke 9:26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father’s, and of the holy angels.

    * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

    Moreover, not once in the entire New Testament did Jesus ever say He was coming back to earth. Rather, Jesus said His work was finished in the world and He was no more in the world.

    Why didn’t Jesus say He was going to return to earth if He had been planning to return to earth? If Jesus was planning to return to earth why did Jesus say I have finished my work, the world will see me no more, and I am no more in the world?

    John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

    John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

    John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

    John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
     
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  2. cataway

    cataway Well-Known Member

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    did you read Daniel 7:
    13 “I kept watching in the visions of the night, and look! with the clouds of the heavens, someone like a son of man was coming; and he gained access to the Ancient of Days, and they brought him up close before that One. 14 And to him there were given rulership, honor, and a kingdom, that the peoples, nations, and language groups should all serve him. His rulership is an everlasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom will not be destroyed."

    possibly by Jesus referring to him self, it does tie Daniel 7 :13 to Jesus
     
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  3. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul One Planet One People Please
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    The 'Ancient of Days' may also not be Jesus.

    Regards Tony
     
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  4. sun rise

    sun rise "This is the Hour of God"
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    The Quran says Jesus will come back.

    Beyond that, the eternal Avatar is the one that the BIble refers to.
     
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  5. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    The title ‘Son of man’ is symbolic of the perfect humanity that Jesus represented, but there is no reason to believe that it applies exclusively to Jesus. It ultimately comes from the Book of Daniel, where it refers to the Messiah.

    Please note that Daniel 7:13 says "someone like a son of man was coming;"
     
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  6. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    The Ancient of Days is God...
    If someone like a son of man was coming and he gained access to the Ancient of Days, that means that the son of man could not be God because a man cannot gain access to himself.

    That means that if Jesus was the son of man Jesus could not also be God. ;)
     
  7. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Can you quote the verse you are referring to?

    If in the NT Jesus said He is no more in the world and the Qur'an says Jesus is coming back, then one of the texts has to be wrong.
     
  8. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
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    Please kindly note in this Quranic Verse: it says that Jesus is a ‘sign ‘ for the ‘hour’. not that He personally would return. And then it goes on to explain what that sign is.

    What was the ‘sign of Jesus’?

    In the following verses It explains what is meant by the sign of Jesus, that Jesus came as a Prophet to clear up misunderstandings and call people to all worship one God. That is my understanding of what the Quran says is the ‘sign of Jesus at the hour ‘. So, the nature of the ‘hour’ in my humble opinion, is that another Prophet, similar to Jesus, will appear to, once again, clear up misunderstandings and call the people to believe in one God.

    Then it explains how this new Prophet will be rejected but that by doing so, the people will have rejected God, and what greater doom than to reject God and His Messenger, the source of all good?

    To me, in my opinion, the Quran is confirming that God continuously sends Prophets to mankind to restate eternal truths and renew religion and will, once again, do so, at the ‘hour’. The Bible also refers to the ‘hour’.

    Followers of Muhammad are warned not to allow satan or their egos? to stop them from embracing the new Prophet as the ego or satan is their own worst enemy. Satan, in my opinion, represents the ego of man. In past ages, the lower nature of man was explained in terms of mythical monsters but now, with science, we understand it refers more accurately to the lower desires of man which is often referred to as ego.

    Quran 43:61-67

    He (Jesus) is, in fact, a sign for the coming of the Hour (Day of Resurrection). Therefore, have no doubt about its coming, follow me; this is the Right Way.[61]

    Let not shaitân restrain you, for he is your open enemy.[62]

    When Isa (Jesus) came with clear signs, he stated: “I have come to you with wisdom (Prophethood), and to clarify some of those things about which you have disputes: so fear Allah and obey me.[63] Surely, it is Allah Who is my Rabb and your Rabb, so worship Him. This is the Right Way.”[64]

    In spite of these teachings, the factions disagreed among themselves; so woe to the wrongdoers from the punishment of a painful Day.[65] Are they only waiting for the Hour of Doom - that it should come upon them suddenly, while they are unaware?[66] On that Day, even friends will become enemies to one another with the exception of the righteous people.[67]
     
    #8 loverofhumanity, Aug 23, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2020
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  9. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

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    Bahai cooking. People walk on water but no one comes on clouds of heaven. Did your Iranian preacher arrive on clouds of heaven?
     
  10. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Those verses were never intended to be interpreted literally, but Christians interpreted them literally so they believe that Jesus will actually come floating down on the physical clouds in the sky.

    To explain in brief, Baha'is believe that ‘Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven’ means that the return of the Christ Spirit promised in the Bible will be made manifest from the heaven of the will of God, and will appear in the form of a human being. The term “heaven” means loftiness and exaltation. Although Jesus was delivered from the womb of His mother, in reality He descended from the heaven of the will of God. Though dwelling on this earth, His true habitation was the realms above. While walking among mortals on earth, Jesus soared in the heaven of the divine presence.

    Baha’u’llah explained the meaning of clouds in The Kitáb-i-Íqán. The term “clouds” as used in the Bible means those things that cloud our judgment and prevent us from seeing what is really there. Just like the physical clouds prevent the eyes of men from beholding the sun, the desires of men hindered men from recognizing the return of Christ.

    To further explain the teaming of clouds, Baha’is believe that the term “clouds” as used in the Bible means those things that are contrary to the ways and desires of men. They signify, in one sense, the annulment of laws, the abrogation of former Dispensations, the repeal of rituals and customs current among men. In another sense, they mean the appearance of a Manifestation of God in the image of mortal man, with such human limitations as eating and drinking, poverty and riches, sleeping and waking, and such other things as cast doubt in the minds of men, and cause them to turn away. These “veils” to recognition of a Manifestation of God are symbolically referred to as “clouds.” Just like the physical clouds prevent the eyes of men from beholding the sun, these things hinder the souls of men from recognizing the light of the Manifestation of God.

    So to answer your question, Bahaullah did arrive on the clouds but the meaning of clouds is symbolic, not literal. Their judgment was clouded because Christians were looking for the same man Jesus in the same body that resurrected and ascended to appear in the actual physical clouds in the sky with power and great glory, trumpets and angels, but when that did not happen that way they rejected Baha’u’llah.

    Incidentally, I just realized that I posted what Baha’u’llah wrote about the Son of man in the clouds on my forum almost six years ago.
     
    #10 Trailblazer, Aug 23, 2020
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 29, 2020
  11. Jimmy

    Jimmy Well-Known Member

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    Could be the Nobody
     
  12. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

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    Son of man, son of a woman, what is all this brahua? Every one is a son or daughter of man or woman. What is so special about it? There is no God sending men or women to be born in the world. They are born because of hormones and cells. I suppose you studied that in your school. I can understand the meaning of clouds without the help of an uneducated 19th Century preacher from Iranian hinterland.
     
  13. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Who is that?
     
  14. sun rise

    sun rise "This is the Hour of God"
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    I don't know how Muslims in general view this but I note these:

    43:61 is translated differently by different people. One of them is:

    The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Translation

    Mohsin Khan: And he ['Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)] shall be a known sign for (the coming of) the Hour (Day of Resurrection) [i.e. 'Iesa's (Jesus) descent on the earth] . Therefore have no doubt concerning it (i.e. the Day of Resurrection). And follow Me (Allah) (i.e. be obedient to Allah and do what He orders you to do, O mankind)! This is the Straight Path (of Islamic Monotheism, leading to Allah and to His Paradise).

    https://www.files.ethz.ch/isn/46623/MESV6-3.pdf also speaks of this.

    And this https://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Return-Messiah-Second-Coming-ebook/dp/B07T8K1NT4
     
  15. rational experiences

    rational experiences Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]

    One of many multi male son of man images in cloud formation, and you can see a spirit next to it also in image.

    Reasoning for life sacrificed. Due to radiation machine converting of God stone mass....cold clear gas history to be stone...set alight. Holding a converting machine controlled model, to convert nuclear radiation x mass, owns holding the UFO by design longer x mass inside of the Earth atmosphere.

    You should not see radiation, as natural light gases burning own natural light.

    Science of the occult designed by human man/males therefore ANTI self on the ground x mass water evaporation x mass split off the ground. Oxygen/water and natural microbes on the ground use get evaporated to contradict radiation burning gas mass....so images are then produced by burning our microbial mass use.

    How IMAGE was caused....and how we lost the use of the oxygenated/microbial water mass for our bio life. Exactly how it was explained...science causes ANTI of life existing. Always had been taught of relativity against self bio survival.
     
  16. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

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    Photoshop? Or Gimp?
     
  17. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    John 14:1-3....

    “Do not let your hearts be troubled. Exercise faith in God; exercise faith also in me. 2 In the house of my Father are many dwelling places. Otherwise, I would have told you, for I am going my way to prepare a place for you. 3 Also, if I go my way and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will receive you home to myself, so that where I am you also may be."

    Jesus said that the world would behold him no longer as a human.....he would never have to come in human form again.
     
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  18. LightofTruth

    LightofTruth Well-Known Member

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    Here is another occasion when Jesus seems to be speaking in the third person:

    Joh 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
    Joh 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
    Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
    Joh 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

    Most translations have Jesus saying "he" or "him" instead of "me" when referring to himself. He also refers to himself as "your son" And in verse three(3), instead of saying "and ME whom you have sent" he says "and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent"
    This passage seems to have Jesus speaking in the third person.
     
    #18 LightofTruth, Aug 24, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2020
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  19. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    Jesus is not the Ancient of Days as in Dan 7 but is Baha'u'llah the "Ancient of Days" or the "one like a son of man"?
    He seems to be both in the teachings of Baha'u'llah because one of his titles is the Ancient of Days and he also seems to want to be the one like the son of man who is given the Kingdom.
     
  20. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    I don't remember anywhere Jesus says the world would behold him no longer as a human.
     
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