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Featured Who is the real Imam Mahdi? Is he still to come?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by soulsurvivor, Jan 20, 2017.

  1. soulsurvivor

    soulsurvivor Active Member
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    I don't question the good intentions and good work of Bahaullaha and the Bahai Organization in promoting world peace etc. There are lots people and organizations who have done similar work, given similar advice and written similar letters. I would not give Bahaullah or the Bahai Organization more credit than (or even as much credit as) Woodrow Wilson or FDR or other world leaders in establishing any of these international organizations. Of course all that has definitely not achieved justice and equity in the world yet - that is what the real Mahdi will accomplish (if the hadiths are to be believed).
     
  2. arthra

    arthra Baha'i

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    Let me suggest to you three things:
    (1) You may not appreciate though that it is the spirit of the age and time we live in that calls for these efforts in the first place and again the warnings and admonitions have been given!

    (2) You also may be looking for a "magical" miracle when it takes work and commitment. We are much closer today to building a world community than we were say a hundred years ago.

    (3) The third element which you may be unaware of is that people can deny and turn their backs on the Messenger of God and deny Him.. People have been turning their backs on the former Messengers from the beginning.
     
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  3. soulsurvivor

    soulsurvivor Active Member
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    1. Sure, the age calls for these efforts, but the Bahai's role is minor
    2. We are closer, but again Bahai's role has been minor.
    3. God never fails - true Messengers of God are eventually accepted and then get massive following - in hundreds of millions. Bahauallah in this equation is a minor figure and will always remain so.

    We still await the Mahdi and I believe he will be here soon.
     
  4. arthra

    arthra Baha'i

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    I leave you in the care of the Almighty... Have a good day.
     
  5. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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  6. soulsurvivor

    soulsurvivor Active Member
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    Very strange interpretations of the Dajjal/Anti-Christ (powerful Christian Nations, if I understand correctly? - they would probably point at Muslim nations). I guess you have to be a believer to buy into this, so we will let it go.

    What about the hadiths about the Mahdi leading the prayer with Jesus behind him? Do you have a strange explanation for that?
     
  7. DawudTalut

    DawudTalut Peace be upon you.

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    Peace be on you.
    There are more aspects too about dajjal:

    Quotes:
    The word Dajjal has two connotations: First, it signifies a group which supports falsehood and works with cunning and deceit. Secondly, it is the name of the Satan who is the father of all falsehood and corruption.
    --
    Dajjal is not the name of one man. According to the Arabic lexicon, Dajjal signifies a group of people who present themselves as trustworthy and pious, but are neither trustworthy nor pious. Rather, everything they say is full of dishonesty and deceit. This characteristic is to be found in the class of Christians known as the clergy. Another group is that of the philosophers and thinkers who are busy trying to assume control of machines, industries and the Divine scheme of things. They are the Dajjal because they deceive God’s creatures by their actions and tall claims as if they are partners in God’s dominion. The clergy are arrogating to themselves the status of Prophethood because they ignore the true heavenly Gospel and spread a perverted and corrupted version as the supposed translation of the Gospel.
    --
    Remember, the sum total of the evils which the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) prophesied would spread in the latter days, is Dajjaliyyat, of which the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) has said there are hundreds of branches. Hence, those Maulavis [DawudTalut says: those clergies who call themselves Muslims but spread terrorism and discord worldwide, many Ahadith explained their negative role in latter days] are also branches of the tree of Dajjaliyat who blindly follow the beaten path and have abandoned the Holy Qur’an, so that though they recite it, it doesn’t get past their tongues. Today Dajjaliyat is spreading its web like a spider. The disbeliever with his disbelief, the hypocrite with hypocrisy, the alcoholic with his drinking, and the Maulavi with his preaching without practice and with his black heart, are all weaving the net of Dajjaliyat. Nothing can break up this web but the heavenly weapon, and no one can wield this weapon but ‘Isa who should descend from that very heaven. So ‘Isa has descended and the promise of God was bound to be fulfilled.
    --
    The word ‘Messiah’ refers to the truthful one whose Masah (i.e. touch) as been blessed by God, and whose breath, word and speech have been given the power to give life. This word particularly applies to the Prophet who does not wage war and reforms mankind through his spiritual power alone. As against this, the word ‘Messiah’ also applies to the Promised Dajjal whose evil power and influence produce calamities, atheism and faithlessness. Even without employing coercive means to destroy the truth, he can make righteousness and love for God grow cold merely by concentration, speech, writing, association and by the influence of his satanic spirit. On the other hand, misconduct, drunkenness, lying, promiscuity, materialism, fraud, tyranny, oppression, famine and epidemics become the order of the day. These are the meanings which emerge from a collective study of standard Arabic lexicons like Lisan-ul-‘Arab;

    Reference: https://www.alislam.org/books/essence3/essence-3.pdf


    ===============

    "Mahdi leading the prayer with Jesus behind him?"

    A Hadiths called Jesus as Mahdi
    "It is just possible that he who lives of you might meet Jesus the son of Mary who is the Mahdi and a just judge. He will break the cross and kill the swine..."
    (Masnad Ahmad Bin Hanbal, Vol. 2, p. 411)


    "There is no Mahdi but Isa."
    (Ibn Maja, Bab Shiddatuz Zaman)



    B
    Mahdi means 'guided by God' .
    There are other Mahdis too, mentioned in Quran:
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [21:74] And We made them leaders who guided people by Our command, and We sent revelation to them enjoining the doing of good works, and the observing of Prayer, and the giving of alms. And they were worshippers of Us alone.

    The initial words are ' wa [and] jaalnahum [We made them] aaimmatan [imams] yahdoona [who guided (people)] be-amrena [by Our command]' ---------

    Result: We [i.e. Allah] made them [i.e. Prophets are mentioned in earlier verses] Imams who guided people......Obviously Prophets were guided by God then they guided people.

    Thus , IN LIGHT OF A & B
    your question "Mahdi leading the prayer with Jesus behind him" means
    =This second Jesus is guided by God too, and is a Prophet too (obviously sub serviant to Holy Prophet pbuh)
    =Being devotee servant of Holy Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) , he is leading in offering Salaat / Prayer i.e. he is establishing The True Version of Islam in latter days.

    It has been written in my previous post #29 Who is the real Imam Mahdi? Is he still to come?
    that Holy Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) mentioned two different men with different dispositions with one name Jesus. First was seen with passed-away Prophets....... The latter one was mentioned in relation with Kaaba and dajjal i.e. he would establish Islam and contend dajjal spiritually.

    Such commonality in names exists in religios metaphors, e.g, John the Baptist was called Elijah.

    =====
    @ injuntrouble said "But I don't get the Dajjal stuff - has Mirza Ahmad already killed the Dajjal as predicted while he was on earth? Or is it the standard explanation used by all religions - the prophecy is just metaphorical!"

    Answer: The works of second Jesus are told by Holy Prophet "killing dajjal, breaking cross, kill swine,...more" [Bukhari, Masnad Ahmad]

    So one can easily understand what these attributes really means. Obviously these are processes to be done by prayers, spiritual attentions, and establishing morals, conveying message but surely not with swords, guns, missiles, aeroplances etc..... That is why, Promised Messiah, Covenated Mahdi 's Jamam'at under Khilafat is struggling with all-spiritual-moral means to establish true Islam by the grace of Allah the Exalted and treasures of prays done by Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be on him) and all pious ones.

    =====

    Lastly, door to ask by supplication, Who sends, is always open by His Grace.
     
    #47 DawudTalut, Jan 23, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2017
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  8. soulsurvivor

    soulsurvivor Active Member
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    Sorry I completely missed your previous post. I agree that the Dajjal is not a single person but probably multiple persons. But you not only have a Mahdi and Jesus rolled into one person, but now you have two Jesuses? All this seems like an attempt to force-fit your candidate for Mahdi into the existing hadiths! This is why the Ahmadiyya movement is still a fringe movement within Islam, leave alone expanding beyond the Islamic world (as the Mahdi's coming is supposed to do).

    The Dajjal is alive and well in the world today with so much evil and evil persons in positions of power. The world may have improved a little in the last 100 years, but it is far from having justice and equity for everyone. I am afraid your Mahdi (if he is the real one) has badly failed in his mission.

    You can continue to believe in your candidate for Mahdi, but I suggest you keep watching for the arrival of any new candidates. Otherwise there will be great disappointment when the real Mahdi shows up instead of there being rejoicing. I think the latest candidate Ahmed Hassan is someone to be considered. He is definitely worth watching
     
  9. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    "But you not only have a Mahdi and Jesus rolled into one person"

    It is not done by DawudTalut on his own, it is described in Hadith*, he quoted. Please
    Regards

    *"There is no Mahdi but Isa."
    (Ibn Maja, Bab Shiddatuz Zaman)
     
    #49 paarsurrey, Jan 24, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2017
  10. soulsurvivor

    soulsurvivor Active Member
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    This hadith is not accepted by most Muslims. See The Hadeeth “There is no Mahdi except ‘Eesa” is not Saheeh - islamqa.info. There are however, multiple hadiths (almost 29) of Jesus praying behind the Mahdi Hadith of Jesus Praying Behind Mahdi - Wikipedia
     
  11. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    There is another Hadith also quoted by DawudTalut:
    Hadiths called Jesus as Mahdi
    "It is just possible that he who lives of you might meet Jesus the son of Mary who is the Mahdi and a just judge. He will break the cross and kill the swine..."
    (Masnad Ahmad Bin Hanbal, Vol. 2, p. 411)

    This also makes Mahdi and Esa, two peculiarities of one person. Please
    Regards
     
  12. soulsurvivor

    soulsurvivor Active Member
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    Here is a good discussion on all the hadiths you have been posting. They are not accepted by most Muslims.

    On the other hand the many hadiths of Jesus and the Mahdi praying as two persons are very well accepted. Tbis sort of thinking will leave you on the fringes of the world Islamic population for ever. Maybe the only thing that will help, is when the real Mahdi appears. It looks like that will happen very soon - many Muslim groups expect it now.
     
  13. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    Mirza Ghulam Ahmad has come both as the Promised Messiah and Imam Mahdi, and he is one person with these two titles.
    Please
    Regards
     
  14. soulsurvivor

    soulsurvivor Active Member
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    As I said before if Mirza Ahmad is the Mahdi, then he is a failure as a Savior - injustice and inequity are alive and well all over the world, people have not accepted Islam and Ahmadiyya movement itself in not recognized by most muslims (Qadiani use of hadith - HELP - Multaqa Ahl al-Hadeeth) - and it has already been over a 100 years. The number of people who believe this story will never be even 1% of the human population - which means the world has not and will never change as predicted because of this person.

    Anyway, the real Mahdi will appear soon and he will be followed by the real Jesus. The promised changes will indeed take place - that is only thing that will convince people like you
     
    #54 soulsurvivor, Jan 26, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2017
  15. DawudTalut

    DawudTalut Peace be upon you.

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    Peace be on all.
    @
    paarsurrey - Thanks you, JazakAllah.


    @ injuntrouble - we can wait for Allah the Exalted's decision, as Holy Quran tells, is the way in such matters.
    ==================================
    The Prophecy about Progress of Ahmadiyya-Jama'at:

    1400 years after Prophet Moses (a.s.) a Messiah (a.s.) came whose message took 300 years to spread.

    Messiah of Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.) also came after 1400 years of him. He (a.s.) writes:

    "Remember that no one will come from sky. Our all opponents who are still alive, they will all die and none of them will see Jesus son of Marry descending from sky. And then their remaining progeny which will stay, will die. And also none of them will see Jesus son of Marry descending from sky. Then progeny of progeny will die and they too will not see son of Marry descending from sky. Then God will put unrest in their hearts that time of victory of cross has vanished and world has come into another colour but son of Marry, Jesus, did not come from sky yet. Then the wise will be suddenly displeased with this belief and the third century from today will still not be completed that those who are waiting for Jesus, Muslims or Christians, will at once leave this false belief with despair and hopelessness. There will be one religion in the world and one leader. I have come to sow a seed. Thus this seed has been sown by my hand. It will grow and sprout and there is none who can stop it."
    [Reference: ruhani khazin, vol, 20]

    Ref: March 23, 1889 The Promised Messiah-the Mahdi has come - Khilafat Continues his Peace Mission.




     
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  16. soulsurvivor

    soulsurvivor Active Member
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    Peace to you too!

    It is true that the message of Jesus took 300 years to spread. But the message was being spread by people on foot or may be on horseback sometimes. Today a message from India can reach the US or literally the other end of the world in a microsecond. It your message is not well received by a majority of humanity in over 100 years in spite of this speed of communication, then it is time for you to give up.

    Anyway, there is no need to take my word for it, you can just and see what happens.

    The real Mahdi will be here soon in the next couple of years, and his message will spread very fast just as predicted - it won't take a 100 years. Within a few years, at most a decade or two, there will be peace and justice though out the world. There may not be one religion, but people will no longer fight about their beliefs.
     
  17. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    Thanks for this quote. Please
    Regards
     
  18. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    The Message has to be conveyed with personal contact, which is not that quick. Please
    Regards
     
  19. soulsurvivor

    soulsurvivor Active Member
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    Personal travel/communication is also much faster - it used to take a year or more to go from India to UK by foot or horseback, now it take less than a day. It seems the message from Mirza Ghulam when it reaches people even personally, is being rejected by more than it is being accepted.You can continue to hope that someday it will suddenly gather some momentum, but I doubt it. A true story would have its own strength and weight without someone needing to push it personally. Even the Bahai story seems more plausible than the Ahmadi one.

    I suggest you still keep your eyes open. The real Mahdi and the real Jesus could appear soon and the predictions of peace, justice, equity should come true in just a few years after that.
     
  20. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    Since Jesus died a natural death in Kashmir, he survived death on Cross, and those who die a natural death never come again. Jesus cannot come again, in metaphoric, he has already come. Please
    Regards
     
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