Who is the Mahdi in Islam?

[paarsurrey]

Buddha was an Avatar of Vishnu, Maitreya is an Avatar, and Christ is an Avatar...

Imam Mahdi is the 'rightly guided one', so someone taught by the Divine: Muhammad was 'rightly guided' to understand some of the Bible prophecy to an enlightened level.

In my opinion.

There is no doubt, as I understand, that Muhammad was a guide (Al-Hadi) for the humanity being "rightly guided one" by G-d, rather the Head/Chief of all the "rightly guided ones" and this is one aspect of the title "Khaatam-un-Nabiyyeen" bestowed on him by G-d.
Actually, I understand from Quran, that every prophet/messenger is and has to be an Imam Mahdi and it is another title name of every one of them. Quran describes it thus:

[21:74]وَ جَعَلۡنٰہُمۡ اَئِمَّۃً یَّہۡدُوۡنَ بِاَمۡرِنَا وَ اَوۡحَیۡنَاۤ اِلَیۡہِمۡ فِعۡلَ الۡخَیۡرٰتِ وَ اِقَامَ الصَّلٰوۃِ وَ اِیۡتَآءَ الزَّکٰوۃِ ۚ وَ کَانُوۡا لَنَا عٰبِدِیۡنَ ﴿ۚۙ۷۴﴾
And We made them leaders who guided people by Our command, and We sent revelation to them enjoining the doing of good works, and the observing of Prayer, and the giving of alms. And they were worshippers of Us alone.
The Holy Quran - Chapter: 21: Al-Anbiya'
[32:24]وَ لَقَدۡ اٰتَیۡنَا مُوۡسَی الۡکِتٰبَ فَلَا تَکُنۡ فِیۡ مِرۡیَۃٍ مِّنۡ لِّقَآئِہٖ وَ جَعَلۡنٰہُ ہُدًی لِّبَنِیۡۤ اِسۡرَآءِیۡلَ ﴿ۚ۲۴﴾
And We did give Moses the Book — be not therefore in doubt as to the meeting with Him — and We made it a guidance for the children of Israel.
[32:25]وَ جَعَلۡنَا مِنۡہُمۡ اَئِمَّۃً یَّہۡدُوۡنَ بِاَمۡرِنَا لَمَّا صَبَرُوۡا ۟ؕ وَ کَانُوۡا بِاٰیٰتِنَا یُوۡقِنُوۡنَ ﴿۲۵﴾
And We made from among them leaders, who guided the people by Our command, whilst they themselves were steadfast and had firm faith in Our Signs.
The Holy Quran - Chapter: 32: As-Sajdah
[6:90]اُولٰٓئِکَ الَّذِیۡنَ اٰتَیۡنٰہُمُ الۡکِتٰبَ وَ الۡحُکۡمَ وَ النُّبُوَّۃَ ۚ فَاِنۡ یَّکۡفُرۡ بِہَا ہٰۤؤُلَآءِ فَقَدۡ وَکَّلۡنَا بِہَا قَوۡمًا لَّیۡسُوۡا بِہَا بِکٰفِرِیۡنَ ﴿۹۰﴾
It is these to whom We gave the Book and dominion and prophethood. But if these people are ungrateful for them, it matters not, for We have now entrusted them to a people who are not ungrateful for them.
[6:91]اُولٰٓئِکَ الَّذِیۡنَ ہَدَی اللّٰہُ فَبِہُدٰٮہُمُ اقۡتَدِہۡ ؕ قُلۡ لَّاۤ اَسۡـَٔلُکُمۡ عَلَیۡہِ اَجۡرًا ؕ اِنۡ ہُوَ اِلَّا ذِکۡرٰی لِلۡعٰلَمِیۡنَ ﴿٪۹۱﴾
These it is whom Allah guided aright, so follow thou their guidance. Say: ‘I ask not of you any reward for it. This is naught but an admonition for all mankind.’
The Holy Quran - Chapter: 6: Al-An`am
[32:25]اَئِمَّۃً یَّہۡدُوۡنَ بِاَمۡرِنَا
"who guided the people by Our command".
The above is plural and it is not difficult to understand that its singular will be Imam Mahdi.
So, in this sense Imam Mahdi is described in Quran, at several places.
Right, please?

Regards

 

[firedragon]

Actually, I understand from Quran, that every prophet/messenger is and has to be an Imam Mahdi and it is another title name of every one of them.

By name or profession?

 

[firedragon]

The above is plural and it is not difficult to understand that its singular will be Imam Mahdi.
So, in this sense Imam Mahdi is described in Quran, at several places.

What version of meaning do you have for Islaha? Please explain how that becomes a person called Mahdi?

 

[wizanda]

[6:91]اُولٰٓئِکَ الَّذِیۡنَ ہَدَی اللّٰہُ فَبِہُدٰٮہُمُ اقۡتَدِہۡ ؕ قُلۡ لَّاۤ اَسۡـَٔلُکُمۡ عَلَیۡہِ اَجۡرًا ؕ اِنۡ ہُوَ اِلَّا ذِکۡرٰی لِلۡعٰلَمِیۡنَ ﴿٪۹۱﴾
These it is whom Allah guided aright, so follow thou their guidance. Say: ‘I ask not of you any reward for it. This is naught but an admonition for all mankind.’

The word 'to guide' (هَدَى) reveals loads of ideas in the Quran, for example that Pharaoh contrary to Muhammad didn't guide; so it is contrasting Muhammad as being the Rightly Guided (Imam Mahdi).

20:79 and Pharaoh led his people astray and did not guide [them].

The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Quran Search

In my opinion.

 

[firedragon]

The word 'to guide' (هَدَى) reveals loads of ideas in the Quran, for example that Pharaoh contrary to Muhammad didn't guide; so it is contrasting Muhammad as being the Rightly Guided (Imam Mahdi).

20:79 and Pharaoh led his people astray and did not guide [them].

The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Quran Search

In my opinion.

Everyone who is "rightly Guided" or has any deravations of the word Hidhaaya doesn't become an Imam Mahdi spoken of in the ahadith mate. All the ahadith are pointing towards a future person and his nick name will be Mahdi. Thats according to ahadith.

In your theory all the messengers that are mentioned everywhere will become an Imam Mahdi.

 

[wizanda]

All the ahadith are pointing towards a future person and his nick name will be Mahdi. Thats according to ahadith.

Yes, and just like Oral Tradition of Judaism, much of the Hadiths are made up, and can not be trusted as a reliable source; therefore the Quran is saying Muhammad was called the Mahdi, to assume another character will come, would need justification in the Quran.

In your theory all the messengers that are mentioned everywhere will become an Imam Mahdi.

The Quran is saying that every messenger who was in agreement to the prophetic standards set, had to be rightly guided by God; Muhammad is referring to himself in the Quran as the Rightly Guided One (Mahdi).

In my opinion.

 

[firedragon]

Yes, and just like Oral Tradition of Judaism, much of the Hadiths are made up, and can not be trusted as a reliable source;

But thats where you get the whole concept of Mr. Mahdi. From the Hadith.

therefore the Quran is saying Muhammad was called the Mahdi

Nope. In that case, Abraham is called Mahdi. All of us are called Mahdi. Noah is Mahdi. Aaron, Moses, Joseph, Dawud, Sulaimn, are all Mahdi's.

Wrong assessment.

 

[wizanda]

But thats where you get the whole concept of Mr. Mahdi. From the Hadith.

The Hadiths are ideas that were created after from the Quran, people always make stuff up after from what they think they know.

Abraham is called Mahdi.

Abraham was rightly guided, which is what makes him a Muslim, as he hears the Source and obeys.

In my opinion.

 

[firedragon]

The Hadiths are ideas that were created after from the Quran, people always make stuff up after from what they think they know.

Abraham was rightly guided, which is what makes him a Muslim, as he hears the Source and obeys.

In my opinion.

So that makes Abraham also an Imam Mahdi based on your own standard. All of them must be then. All the names I mentioned. Because the Quran names all of them as rightly guided. The same arabic word Hidhaya. So all of them are the eschatological character Mahdhi is it?

 

[paarsurrey]

By name or profession?

Is "Imam Mahdi" a profession,please?

Regards

 

[wizanda]

So all of them are the eschatological character Mahdhi is it?

The Hadiths reveal an idea of someone correcting the teachings that had been corrupted, Muhammad already fulfilled this.

In my opinion.

 

[firedragon]

The Hadiths reveal an idea of someone correcting the teachings that had been corrupted, Muhammad already fulfilled this.

In my opinion.

Well, you are wrong in that statement but neverminnd.


So now you believe in hadith as well? Whats your position? You pick what you like? Or believe everything in ahadith? Or you follow the traditional science of classification? Or do you have your own science?

 

[paarsurrey]

Everyone who is "rightly Guided" or has any deravations of the word Hidhaaya doesn't become an Imam Mahdi spoken of in the ahadith mate. All the ahadith are pointing towards a future person and his nick name will be Mahdi. Thats according to ahadith.

In your theory all the messengers that are mentioned everywhere will become an Imam Mahdi.

"all the messengers that are mentioned everywhere will become an Imam Mahdi"

We are discussing Imam Mahdi from Quran. Imam Mahdi is another description of a Messenger/Prophet from G-d, like "Haad" or "Nazeer" or "Mubasher" etc, please.

Regards
_____________
[13:8]وَ یَقُوۡلُ الَّذِیۡنَ کَفَرُوۡا لَوۡ لَاۤ اُنۡزِلَ عَلَیۡہِ اٰیَۃٌ مِّنۡ رَّبِّہٖ ؕ اِنَّمَاۤ اَنۡتَ مُنۡذِرٌ وَّ لِکُلِّ قَوۡمٍ ہَادٍ ٪﴿۸﴾
And those who disbelieve say, ‘Wherefore has not a Sign been sent down to him from his Lord?’ Thou art, surely, a Warner. And there is a Guide for every people.
The Holy Quran - Chapter: 13: Ar-Ra`d
[11:26]وَ لَقَدۡ اَرۡسَلۡنَا نُوۡحًا اِلٰی قَوۡمِہٖۤ ۫ اِنِّیۡ لَکُمۡ نَذِیۡرٌ مُّبِیۡنٌ ﴿ۙ۲۶﴾
And We sent Noah to his people, and he said, ‘Truly, I am a plain Warner to you,
The Holy Quran - Chapter: 11: Hud
[2:214]کَانَ النَّاسُ اُمَّۃً وَّاحِدَۃً ۟ فَبَعَثَ اللّٰہُ النَّبِیّٖنَ مُبَشِّرِیۡنَ وَ مُنۡذِرِیۡنَ ۪ وَ اَنۡزَلَ مَعَہُمُ الۡکِتٰبَ بِالۡحَقِّ لِیَحۡکُمَ بَیۡنَ النَّاسِ فِیۡمَا اخۡتَلَفُوۡا فِیۡہِ ؕ وَ مَا اخۡتَلَفَ فِیۡہِ اِلَّا الَّذِیۡنَ اُوۡتُوۡہُ مِنۡۢ بَعۡدِ مَا جَآءَتۡہُمُ الۡبَیِّنٰتُ بَغۡیًۢا بَیۡنَہُمۡ ۚ فَہَدَی اللّٰہُ الَّذِیۡنَ اٰمَنُوۡا لِمَا اخۡتَلَفُوۡا فِیۡہِ مِنَ الۡحَقِّ بِاِذۡنِہٖ ؕ وَ اللّٰہُ یَہۡدِیۡ مَنۡ یَّشَآءُ اِلٰی صِرَاطٍ مُّسۡتَقِیۡمٍ ﴿۲۱۴﴾
Mankind were one community, then they differed among themselves, so Allah raised Prophets as bearers of good tidings and as warners, and sent down with them the Book containing the truth that He might judge between the people wherein they differed. But now they began to differ about the Book, and none differed about it except those to whom it was given, after clear Signs had come to them, out of envy towards one another. Now has Allah, by His command, guided the believers to the truth in regard to which they (the unbelievers) differed; and Allah guides whomsoever He pleases to the right path.
The Holy Quran - Chapter: 2: Al-Baqarah

 

[firedragon]

We are discussing Imam Mahdi from Quran. Imam Mahdi is another description of a Messenger/Prophet like "Haad" or "Nazeer" or "Mubasher" etc, please.

There is no Imam Mahdi in the Quran. Imam Mahdi is a nickname. A name. No one by that name exists in the Quran. You have to work really really hard to turn a character in the Quran into an Imam Mahdi.

 

[wizanda]

Whats your position?

The Hadiths are made up oral traditions that came about from people's ideas about the texts, this happens in all religion, and is generally what people follow, not the original message, yet that which is passed down.

In my opinion.

 

[firedragon]

The Hadiths are made up oral traditions that came about from people's ideas about the texts

Brother. Lets not please state the most obvious things.

this happens in all religion, and is generally what people follow, not the original message, yet that which is passed down.

You still didnt answer the question. Your answer is irrelevant.

So now you believe in hadith as well? Whats your position? You pick what you like? Or believe everything in ahadith? Or you follow the traditional science of classification? Or do you have your own science?

 

[wizanda]

Your answer is irrelevant.

That was our answer to your questions, as it summarized many of them:

So now you believe in hadith as well?

You pick what you like?

Or believe everything in ahadith?

Or you follow the traditional science of classification?

The Hadiths are made up oral traditions that came about from people's ideas about the texts, this happens in all religion, and is generally what people follow, not the original message, yet that which is passed down.

Or do you have your own science?

Having studied many religions, I'll generally stick to the original source material, checking the original languages for additional meanings, rather than what has been passed down outside of it; so I do not study commentaries, scholars, and tho I'll understand what the oral traditions (Hadiths) will have to say, I do not take it as valuable evidence.

So the source material will generally have a 50% rating to begin, on being valid before investigation, and before correlation of the data; oral traditions generally start at less than 25% as being real...

If an oral tradition exists that correlates with an aspect of the Quran, I'll generally wonder in what way are they adding to what was there...

Plus generally will want to understand the logic in the mechanism of an oral traditions creation.

In my opinion.

 

[firedragon]

Having studied many religions, I'll generally stick to the original source material, checking the original languages for additional meanings, rather than what has been passed down outside of it; so I do not study commentaries, scholars, and tho I'll understand what the oral traditions (Hadiths) will have to say, I do not take it as valuable evidence.

So the source material will generally have a 50% rating to begin, on being valid before investigation, and before correlation of the data; oral traditions generally start at less than 25% as being real...

If an oral tradition exists that correlates with an aspect of the Quran, I'll generally wonder in what way are they adding to what was there...

Plus generally will want to understand the logic in the mechanism of an oral traditions creation.

Too vague. Lets make it specific.

Do you believe in Mathrook hadith?

 

[paarsurrey]

That was our answer to your questions, as it summarized many of them:


Having studied many religions, I'll generally stick to the original source material, checking the original languages for additional meanings, rather than what has been passed down outside of it; so I do not study commentaries, scholars, and tho I'll understand what the oral traditions (Hadiths) will have to say, I do not take it as valuable evidence.

So the source material will generally have a 50% rating to begin, on being valid before investigation, and before correlation of the data; oral traditions generally start at less than 25% as being real...

If an oral tradition exists that correlates with an aspect of the Quran, I'll generally wonder in what way are they adding to what was there...

Plus generally will want to understand the logic in the mechanism of an oral traditions creation.

In my opinion.

"I'll generally stick to the original source material"

I also.I agree with one here.
My position is as follows:

After investigating the chain of narration of a Hadith, the second thing which requires investigation is the text of a Hadith. Although scholars of Hadith have left no stone unturned in investigating the characters and biographies of the narrators and have spent a greater part of their lives in this research, yet like every human endeavor, the natural flaws which still exist in the narration of a Hadith requires that the following two things must always remain in consideration while investigating the text of a Hadith:

1. Nothing in it should be against the Quran and Sunnah

2. Nothing in it should be against established facts derived from knowledge and reason

http://www.renaissance.com.pk/JulHadi2y6.htm

Of course one should believe these principle after due pondering under the guidance of Quran and Sunnah and every effort should be made to harmonize one’s interpretation with Quran.
Quran should judge the Hadith, it is incorrect to judge Quran from Hadith.
Right, please?

Regards

 

[wizanda]

Too vague. Lets make it specific.

Do you believe in Mathrook hadith?

That wasn't vague, I offered mathematical understanding to how I'd rate texts; therefore it is below 25%, which means no I don't believe things unless they have over 82%...

Tho I will accept that is where ideas might come from, it doesn't mean I believe any of it, unless shown it adds up.

In my opinion.