• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Who is the first and the last?

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
Well, in my estimation Jesus is a Johnny-come-lately in The ‘Who’s on First?’ contest.

I am the Supersoul, O Arjuna, seated in the hearts of all living entities. I am the beginning, the middle and the end of all beings.
Of letters I am the letter A, and among compound words I am the dual compound. I am also inexhaustible time, and of creators I am Brahma.
I am all-devouring death, and I am the generating principle of all that is yet to be.
I am the generating seed of all existences. There is no being — moving or nonmoving — that can exist without Me.
Know that all opulent, beautiful and glorious creations spring from but a spark of My splendor.
With a single fragment of Myself I pervade and support this entire universe.
He who knows Me as the unborn, as the beginningless, as the Supreme Lord of all the worlds — he only, undeluded among men, is freed from all sins.
I am the source of all spiritual and material worlds. Everything emanates from Me. The wise who perfectly know this engage in My devotional service and worship Me with all their hearts.
At that time Arjuna could see in the universal form of the Lord the unlimited expansions of the universe situated in one place although divided into many, many thousands.


This is at least several centuries, if not millennia before Jesus. What does that say? So, we could go on with these until Lord Kalki comes. :shrug:
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Well, in my estimation Jesus is a Johnny-come-lately in The ‘Who’s on First?’ contest.

I am the Supersoul, O Arjuna, seated in the hearts of all living entities. I am the beginning, the middle and the end of all beings.
Of letters I am the letter A, and among compound words I am the dual compound. I am also inexhaustible time, and of creators I am Brahma.
I am all-devouring death, and I am the generating principle of all that is yet to be.
I am the generating seed of all existences. There is no being — moving or nonmoving — that can exist without Me.
Know that all opulent, beautiful and glorious creations spring from but a spark of My splendor.
With a single fragment of Myself I pervade and support this entire universe.
He who knows Me as the unborn, as the beginningless, as the Supreme Lord of all the worlds — he only, undeluded among men, is freed from all sins.
I am the source of all spiritual and material worlds. Everything emanates from Me. The wise who perfectly know this engage in My devotional service and worship Me with all their hearts.
At that time Arjuna could see in the universal form of the Lord the unlimited expansions of the universe situated in one place although divided into many, many thousands.


This is at least several centuries, if not millennia before Jesus. What does that say? So, we could go on with these until Lord Kalki comes. :shrug:
According to Baha'i beliefs, Jesus was preceded by several Messengers of God. :oops:

upload_2021-6-12_20-41-6.png
 

John1.12

Free gift
No, all of these verses are about Baha'u'llah, and if you ever bothered to read and understand how they were fulfilled by Him you would know the truth. Christ was not returning in the air but He did come in the clouds, not the physical clouds, but clouded by man's ignorance which acted as a veil, a cloud. Clouds and sir are symbolic, not literal air and clouds.

Did You Miss the Return of Christ?

Did You Miss the Return of Christ?
How convenient. I mean no disrespect to you, but in all the claims I've heard ,this religion you speak of ,is the most outlandish attempt to claim the narrative of Christianity ( in some sense ) yet. I mean this . Until this forum ,I'd not come across it before . But its the craziest claim on Jesus, to date lol. I cannot be surprised after this one .I can see what the bible means ,in technicolor, on ' false Christ's, now .
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
How convenient. I mean no disrespect to you, but in all the claims I've heard ,this religion you speak of ,is the most outlandish attempt to claim the narrative of Christianity ( in some sense ) yet. I mean this . Until this forum ,I'd not come across it before . But its the craziest claim on Jesus, to date lol. I cannot be surprised after this one .I can see what the bible means ,in technicolor, on ' false Christ's, now .
The narrative of Christianity regarding the return of the same Jesus is completely false. I do not have to refer to any Baha'i Writings to prove that. All I need is the Bible to prove that and I have done so. So far no Christian has ever been able to refute what I have posted because there is nothing in the New Testament where Jesus said He was coming back, only verses where Jesus says He is not coming back.

Baha'u'llah made no claim on Jesus nor did He claim to be Jesus. If He had we would know He was a false prophet, since Jesus said not to believe anyone claiming to be Christ.

Matthew 24 KJV

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.


Please note that Jesus did not say He was coming, when asked by His disciples -- not in these verses, not in any verses.
 

Praise Jah

Psalm 83:18
Can you quote the Bible verses that say that?

These verses are referring to the dead physical body and the physical grave. When the body dies, it knows nothing because the brain ceases to function. However, the soul leaves the body and takes on a new form, a spiritual body and so it has a new life in heaven.

1 Corinthians 15:40-54 New Living Translation

40 There are also bodies in the heavens and bodies on the earth. The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies.

44 They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.

50 What I am saying, dear brothers and sisters, is that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. These dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever.

51 But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed!

54 Then, when our dying bodies have been transformed into bodies that will never die,[c] this Scripture will be fulfilled: “Death is swallowed up in victory.[d]


Read full chapter

I do not derive my beliefs about the immortal soul from philosophy or from the Bible. I gte them from my own religion, the Baha'i Faith.

You can cite Bible verses till the cows come home b and like all Christians you can use verses to try to prove what you believe is right. Like all Christians you believe the verses mean what you have interpreted them to mean, in order to support what you already believe.

A physical body is not a sin but it is what causes us to sin. The soul cannot sin unless it is connected to a physical body. Moreover, the flesh profits nothing. It is ironic that Christians make a big deal out of the fleshy body rising from the grave given what Jesus said about it.

Luke 9:60 Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.

John 3:5-7 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.


You are free to believe that if you want to, but I do nit believe all the stories in the Bible are literally true. Many of them have symbolic significance. Again, you worship a physical body which is not who we are. We are souls that function through a physical body for a short life span on earth.

God's will is that humans build the kingdom of God on earth so that living people and future generations of living people can live in peace and harmony. God's will is not for dead people to rise from their graves and live on earth forever. That is a fantasy and it can in no way can be supported by the Bible unless you twist the true meaning of Bible verses to suit your fancy.

God is not going to accomplish anything, humans are going to build the Kingdom of God, also known as the New World Order, on earth by following the blueprint instructions laid out by Baha'u'llah in His Writings.

Toward a New World Order?

“This is the Day in which God’s most excellent favors have been poured out upon men, the Day in which His most mighty grace hath been infused into all created things. It is incumbent upon all the peoples of the world to reconcile their differences, and, with perfect unity and peace, abide beneath the shadow of the Tree of His care and loving-kindness. It behoveth them to cleave to whatsoever will, in this Day, be conducive to the exaltation of their stations, and to the promotion of their best interests. Happy are those whom the all-glorious Pen was moved to remember, and blessed are those men whose names, by virtue of Our inscrutable decree, We have preferred to conceal.

Beseech ye the one true God to grant that all men may be graciously assisted to fulfil that which is acceptable in Our sight. Soon will the present-day order be rolled up, and a new one spread out in its stead. Verily, thy Lord speaketh the truth, and is the Knower of things unseen.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 6-7
Satan is the father of the lie. (John 8:44) Satan contradicted Jehovah God by telling Eve the lie that she would not die if she ate of the fruit of the tree. As stated before, the Bible simply says fruit. It does not say what kind of fruit it was. (Genesis 3:1-6)

The first reference to death in the Scriptures occurs at (Genesis 2:16-17) where God commands Adam and Eve not to eat from a certain tree. Any violation of that command would result in death. So, disobedience is the cause of sin. Sin results in death. (James 1:15)

Having a physical body is not what causes sin. Jesus had a physical body when he was on earth and he did not sin. (1 Peter 2:22) Satan and the demons have spiritual bodies and they did sin. Sin is not about the body type. It's about whether or not one obeys the Creator, Jehovah God.

Jehovah created the angels with spiritual bodies. God's angels are mortal despite possessing spiritual bodies. Satan and his demons will be destroyed. (Jude 6) (Matthew 25:41) (Revelation 20:10)

Jesus was a mortal angel like all of God's angels. He did not possess immortality until after his resurrection by God. (Romans 6:9) Afterwards Jesus became the First to be gifted a resurrection to immortal spirit life and the Last to be so resurrected by Jehovah God personally. (Colossians 1:8) (Revelation 1:17-18) (This also shows that we do not have an immortal soul or immortal spirit that leaves the body upon death. If we did, Jesus would not be described in the Bible as the first to receive immortality since many people in the Bible had died before Jesus.)

The 144,000 anointed Christians called by Jehovah God to reign with Christ in the heavens are given the promise that they too will receive a resurrection like that of Jesus to immortal spirit life in heaven. (Romans 6:5) (1 Peter 3-4) (1 Corinthians 15:42-54)

These 144,000 who receive immortal spirit life will reign with Jesus in God's Kingdom. Jehovah's Kingdom is not manmade. The Kingdom is in the heavens and is established by God and it will rule over the earth and it will never be destroyed. (Daniel 2:44)

Under Jehovah's Kingdom the wicked and disobedient will be removed from the earth and be permanently destroyed, Satan and his demons will be destroyed and the righteous will enjoy everlasting life on a peaceful Paradise earth forever! (Psalm 37:9-11) (Psalm 37:29) (Proverbs 2:21-22) (Matthew 5:5).
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Satan is the father of the lie. (John 8:44) Satan contradicted Jehovah God by telling Eve the lie that she would not die if she ate of the fruit of the tree. As stated before, the Bible simply says fruit. It does not say what kind of fruit it was. (Genesis 3:1-6)

The first reference to death in the Scriptures occurs at (Genesis 2:16-17) where God commands Adam and Eve not to eat from a certain tree. Any violation of that command would result in death. So, disobedience is the cause of sin. Sin results in death. (James 1:15)

Having a physical body is not what causes sin. Jesus had a physical body when he was on earth and he did not sin. (1 Peter 2:22) Satan and the demons have spiritual bodies and they did sin. Sin is not about the body type. It's about whether or not one obeys the Creator, Jehovah God.

Jehovah created the angels with spiritual bodies. God's angels are mortal despite possessing spiritual bodies. Satan and his demons will be destroyed. (Jude 6) (Matthew 25:41) (Revelation 20:10)

Jesus was a mortal angel like all of God's angels. He did not possess immortality until after his resurrection by God. (Romans 6:9) Afterwards Jesus became the First to be gifted a resurrection to immortal spirit life and the Last to be so resurrected by Jehovah God personally. (Colossians 1:8) (Revelation 1:17-18) (This also shows that we do not have an immortal soul or immortal spirit that leaves the body upon death. If we did, Jesus would not be described in the Bible as the first to receive immortality since many people in the Bible had died before Jesus.)

The 144,000 anointed Christians called by Jehovah God to reign with Christ in the heavens are given the promise that they too will receive a resurrection like that of Jesus to immortal spirit life in heaven. (Romans 6:5) (1 Peter 3-4) (1 Corinthians 15:42-54)

These 144,000 who receive immortal spirit life will reign with Jesus in God's Kingdom. Jehovah's Kingdom is not manmade. The Kingdom is in the heavens and is established by God and it will rule over the earth and it will never be destroyed. (Daniel 2:44)

Under Jehovah's Kingdom the wicked and disobedient will be removed from the earth and be permanently destroyed, Satan and his demons will be destroyed and the righteous will enjoy everlasting life on a peaceful Paradise earth forever! (Psalm 37:9-11) (Psalm 37:29) (Proverbs 2:21-22) (Matthew 5:5).
You are free to believe all that and you will, because that is what you want to believe and that is what you have been taught by your Church. I could go over all the Bible verses and tell you what I believe they mean but it would make no difference, because you are going to believe what you believe.

There is no point telling me what you believe because I consider it a complete fantasy which was concocted by selecting various Bible verses and interpreting them to support your beliefs. Logically speaking, if Bible verses could only be interpreted one way, to mean what you believe they mean, then there would not be Christians who have many different beliefs. Do you ever bother to think logically or do you just believe what you were taught without question?

I already explained what I believe and all you did was come back with what you believe as it it came from a script. You will believe that until the day you die and wake up in heaven with a spiritual body and wonder why you were not resurrected in a physical body to the New Earth. Nothing I say is going to make any difference as you have been thoroughly brainwashed by your Church. You will have to find out for yourself.
 
Top