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Who is the Devil?

Ðanisty

Well-Known Member
When Jesus was accepted to be the Messiah and Lucifer’s flawed and foolish idea was rejected, Lucifer rebelled and was cast down and became the Devil, the father of lies whose only purpose is to thwart the plan of the Father and make us all as miserable as he is.
Lol....Lucifer's idea is already in action.
 

Ðanisty

Well-Known Member
Super Universe said:
Can you expand on this?
Certainly. Adam and Eve ate the fruit in the garden. This not only allowed us to know things God did not want us to know, it freed us from the garden itself allowing us to explore and know even more. From that time, man has never stopped searching for answers (to anything really...we're a pretty curious bunch). It was this act by Lucifer that put everything into motion. He's the one who gifted us with the knowledge and set us free. He's the one who made us truly human by showing our own intellect. The only reason anyone would even need a messiah like Jesus is because of God's wrath. Once I recognized this, I decided there's no point in going to heaven anyway. I have no desire to be with a God who kept us as ignorant slaves in the garden, and then got so enraged that he put into motion a scenario that could supposedly only be undone by the death of his very own child.
 

Super Universe

Defender of God
God's wrath? There has never been any wrath from God. Humans used to blame Zeus for lightning. Humans blame God for hurricanes, accidents, and bad parents.

Too much religious teaching has been repeated, for thousands of years. Not enough from inside, where you truly know right from wrong. Aren't we more intelligent now? Can't we take a new look at an old problem?

Use your Luciferian logic for a moment, this old Adam and Eve story says that a serpent talked Eve into eating from the tree of life.
Serpents talk? When have you seen this happen?
Why would God even put a tree of life in the garden of Eden to tempt them? Why not put it somewhere farther away? Or not at all?
God created us, wouldn't He know we probably wouldn't be able to resist?

Why would God allow Lucifer to exist? To tempt us and punish us? Hmm, so God creates the universe for us, gives us free will, then punishes us for choosing what we want.

Don't you see this ancient writing is full of petty human faults falsely given to a God who humans 2,000 years ago could barely begin to understand?

God created the universe so it could be a home to us. We are His children and through us He experiences His great universe. He sees what you see, feels what you feel, hears everything you hear.

You think He does not care because He did not help you when you most needed it, when you were the most vulnerable, and not in control.

But who are you now? Aren't you in control now? Aren't you strong now? Do you think you would be the person you are without that adversity in your upbringing?

God didn't create the adversity but He did allow it to happen but you think you were alone when you were not. He was there with you. He knows what you went through.

Part of the Adam and Eve story explains that we chose not to be protected if it meant being unaware.

The earth is an area of choice. We chose to have choice and we accepted the consequences of the actions that come from that decision.
 

Ðanisty

Well-Known Member
God's wrath? There has never been any wrath from God.
Not in your religion. ;)

Too much religious teaching has been repeated, for thousands of years. Not enough from inside, where you truly know right from wrong.
My beliefs don't come from too much religious teaching. In fact, I was raised entirely without religion. From inside where I truly know right from wrong is how I developed my spiritual beliefs.

Use your Luciferian logic for a moment, this old Adam and Eve story says that a serpent talked Eve into eating from the tree of life.
Serpents talk? When have you seen this happen?
First of all, I never said anything about logic. I have as much faith as anyone else here. Have I ever seen a serpent talk? Not personally, but this is of course no ordinary serpent. If you are expecting to approach my views as if I was an atheist, you will find yourself not getting very far. You shouldn't make these kinds of assumptions about people.

Why would God even put a tree of life in the garden of Eden to tempt them? Why not put it somewhere farther away? Or not at all?
God created us, wouldn't He know we probably wouldn't be able to resist?
Of course he knew which is precisely why it's so despicable.

Why would God allow Lucifer to exist? To tempt us and punish us? Hmm, so God creates the universe for us, gives us free will, then punishes us for choosing what we want.
Yup, that pretty much sums it up.

Don't you see this ancient writing is full of petty human faults falsely given to a God who humans 2,000 years ago could barely begin to understand?
I see a text written from the perspective of those who desire to be reunited with this God. The bible is very biased that way. ;)

God created the universe so it could be a home to us. We are His children and through us He experiences His great universe. He sees what you see, feels what you feel, hears everything you hear.
And how exactly were we to experience the world while we were trapped in the garden? It is Lucifer that opened our eyes to the vastness of the world.
You think He does not care because He did not help you when you most needed it, when you were the most vulnerable, and not in control.
Do not pretend to know anything about me. I have been in no such situation of need or vulnerability and I certainly never sought his help. This is pure speculation on your part, but I've seen it over and over again. It seems Christians cannot grasp that some people simply don't want anything to do with their God.

But who are you now? Aren't you in control now? Aren't you strong now? Do you think you would be the person you are without that adversity in your upbringing?
Again, speculation. I have faced no such adversity.

God didn't create the adversity but He did allow it to happen but you think you were alone when you were not. He was there with you. He knows what you went through.
More speculation since such adversity is non-existent.

I suppose I need to make clear that I am not an angsty teenager. In fact, I never really had much angst even when I was a teenager. I am not a Luciferian out some need to rebel against my parents or some deep-seated anger towards Christianity. I know that it makes it hard for you to swallow, but I am a Luciferian simply because I am. This is in my soul. This is what I've found to be my truth. I come to Luciferianism in light, not ignorance. I have made an informed adult decision to follow the path I was born unto.
 

Super Universe

Defender of God
My religion? I have no religion but I follow pieces from many. The only truth I know: God exists and He created the universe. The rest is subject to change depending on scientific dicovery or other revelation.

God does not abide by human created constraints, He abides by His rules.

My only constraint is my own will and the ends of the universe.

God didn't put the tree there, Adam and Eve brought it with them when they came here. The tree of life did not open their eyes, it was just a tree from their homeland, something the primitive humans had never seen before.

Lucifer and Satan have free will, other than having the knowledge of the angels this is their only power. Anyone who compares Satan's power to God's is comparing an ant to the sun.

Humans have always had free will. The Garden of Eden was home to Adam and Eve, primitive humans had their own tribal homes.

To you, Lucifer is really God and God is really Lucifer. It's just name calling...
 

Ðanisty

Well-Known Member
Super Universe said:
My religion? I have no religion but I follow pieces from many. The only truth I know: God exists and He created the universe. The rest is subject to change depending on scientific dicovery or other revelation.

God does not abide by human created constraints, He abides by His rules.

My only constraint is my own will and the ends of the universe.

God didn't put the tree there, Adam and Eve brought it with them when they came here. The tree of life did not open their eyes, it was just a tree from their homeland, something the primitive humans had never seen before.

Lucifer and Satan have free will, other than having the knowledge of the angels this is their only power. Anyone who compares Satan's power to God's is comparing an ant to the sun.

Humans have always had free will. The Garden of Eden was home to Adam and Eve, primitive humans had their own tribal homes.

To you, Lucifer is really God and God is really Lucifer. It's just name calling...
Call it whatever you want. I'm not going to waste any more energy trying to explain and justify my beliefs for someone who's beliefs already don't fit in with Christianity. What makes you think that you are free to pick and choose what of the bible you want to believe? :sarcastic And yet you have the nerve to question me and my interpretations?
 
Its funny...the concept of the war in heaven, of angels and demons is a Zoroastrian descended belief. Zoroastrianism sees good and evil as one in the same. So it is entirely possible that God and Satan are one in the same, or that Satan is still very loyal to God. Satan is not a proper noun, it is a title: God's Adversary. Perhaps Satan is merely playing the role that God intented.
 

Evandr2

Member
Ðanisty said:
Lol....Lucifer's idea is already in action.

Lucifer's plan was to force mankind into submission so that all could return to the presence of God. For this Lucifer wanted all the glory for himself. In short, he wanted to unseat God and take His place.

The plan was foolishness because after all was said and done nothing would have been accomplished. It would have been a massive exercise in futility. The demands of justice and all creation would have caused Lucifer's plan to cave in on itself.

Lucifer's power is only as extensive as God allows it to be. The great difference between what Lucifer wanted and what he got is two-fold. First Lucifer sought for glory yet he was stripped of even that glory which he had and second, Lucifer sought to deny us our free agency yet HE is the one who has been damned against any progression. We have our free agency and through the atonement of Christ WE can inherit all that God has because we are his children.

God is in complete control while Satan is under complete and absolute subservience to God's power. Satan had been given the power to bruise man's heel but man has the power to crush Lucifer's head.

Vandr
 

Ðanisty

Well-Known Member
Evandr2 said:
Lucifer's plan was to force mankind into submission so that all could return to the presence of God. For this Lucifer wanted all the glory for himself. In short, he wanted to unseat God and take His place.

The plan was foolishness because after all was said and done nothing would have been accomplished. It would have been a massive exercise in futility. The demands of justice and all creation would have caused Lucifer's plan to cave in on itself.

Lucifer's power is only as extensive as God allows it to be. The great difference between what Lucifer wanted and what he got is two-fold. First Lucifer sought for glory yet he was stripped of even that glory which he had and second, Lucifer sought to deny us our free agency yet HE is the one who has been damned against any progression. We have our free agency and through the atonement of Christ WE can inherit all that God has because we are his children.

God is in complete control while Satan is under complete and absolute subservience to God's power. Satan had been given the power to bruise man's heel but man has the power to crush Lucifer's head.

Vandr
Look, I don't know what your religion is because you don't have it in your profile, but my religion is Luciferianism, so no doubt we will have opposing views on Lucifer.
 

Super Universe

Defender of God
You find yourself on unfamiliar ground. I don't believe the Old Testaments primitive view of a jealous God with human faults so maybe I'm not a Christian in the view of some. But then, what Christian puts the Old Testament above the New?

It makes it tough to argue when you can't use someones own book against them. I have the same problem debating you.

Something made you choose a course rarely chosen, a path that others stay well away from, even athiests. You say it's just your nature, perhaps it is.

What makes me think that I am free to pick and choose what parts of the bible I believe? Free will baby! God's plan for our universe.

Lucifer had free will as well but he rebelled against God and his peers, the other ascended beings who keep God's original intent for the universe which is sentient life with free will.

Lucifer corrupted Satan and many others into his cause. The time for his judgement is nearing. The trouble he caused will be fixed.

Sure I have the nerve to question you. This is a religious forum that you willingly frequent, isn't it? I only question you because you're interesting.
 

Evandr2

Member
Ðanisty said:
Certainly. Adam and Eve ate the fruit in the garden. This not only allowed us to know things God did not want us to know, it freed us from the garden itself allowing us to explore and know even more. From that time, man has never stopped searching for answers (to anything really...we're a pretty curious bunch). It was this act by Lucifer that put everything into motion. He's the one who gifted us with the knowledge and set us free. He's the one who made us truly human by showing our own intellect. The only reason anyone would even need a messiah like Jesus is because of God's wrath. Once I recognized this, I decided there's no point in going to heaven anyway. I have no desire to be with a God who kept us as ignorant slaves in the garden, and then got so enraged that he put into motion a scenario that could supposedly only be undone by the death of his very own child.

Before Adam and Eve partook of the forbidden fruit they were innocent, not knowing good from evil. How can someone who does not know good from evil choose one over the other? Consequently, how can one be punished for a crime they were innocent of?

Adam and Eve were immortal in the garden as well as innocent. They were commanded to multiply and replenish the earth but they were not given a time frame. They were immortal. They could have waited a billion trillion years and still had time to figure a way to keep this commandment. Truth is, they didn't know how nor could they know. How were they to keep this commandment lest they learned right from wrong? The earth was not meant to house an ever increasing population of immortal beings who were stagnating in knowledge.

It is true that Lucifer caused that the whole plan of God be put in motion. This makes Lucifer and absolute idiot. Had he done nothing, Adam and Eve might still be mulling around in the garden.

Fact is, Lucifer knew that if he did not set the plan into motion he would never be able to cause the misery of God's children. It must be gut wrenching to Satan to know that his plan of misery is part of the vehicle that will glorify so many of our Heavenly Father's children while only a relatively small number will be cast out as sons of perdition at the end of the millennium when Christ will declare the work done, claim the victory over Lucifer, and final judgment will be meted out.

Sorry, but Lucifer is a looser in every sense of the word.

Vandr
 
Evandr2 said:
Adam and Eve were immortal in the garden as well as innocent.

Adam and Eve were not Immortal....and you are right about not being able to know which choice is good or bad, seeing as how they had no knowledge of good and evil before they ate the fruit. God gave them free will with a desire for knowledge. Then God puts a tree with great knowledge in it and tells them not to eat it for they will die. Serpant comes along and says you will not die. And serpant was right. All this is covered in Genesis 3.
 

Super Universe

Defender of God
Malkav's Knight said:
Adam and Eve were not Immortal....and you are right about not being able to know which choice is good or bad, seeing as how they had no knowledge of good and evil before they ate the fruit. God gave them free will with a desire for knowledge. Then God puts a tree with great knowledge in it and tells them not to eat it for they will die. Serpant comes along and says you will not die. And serpant was right. All this is covered in Genesis 3.

Hmm, serpents talk?
A tree provides knowledge of good and evil?
God lies?
God gives us free will then punishes us for using it?
God tempts?
God kills?

Don't blindly accept what you've been taught.

When did Jesus lie?
When did Jesus punish us?
When did Jesus tempt us?
When did Jesus kill humans for sin?

You find it so easy to believe these human faults in God but you cannot accept them in His Son?
 
Super Universe, was your post directed at me. If so, I do not believe that Jesus was the Son of God, I believe that a historic Jesus did exist, but he was mostly likely just a Hebrew who sought to reform Judaism. Nothing more, he was just a descent human who took his insight a little too far. I am not a religious person, but I like to debate on their own field.
 

Ðanisty

Well-Known Member
Super Universe said:
You find yourself on unfamiliar ground. I don't believe the Old Testaments primitive view of a jealous God with human faults so maybe I'm not a Christian in the view of some. But then, what Christian puts the Old Testament above the New?
Not unfamiliar ground. I just don't understand what makes you think that you have any more authority than I do. Neither of us sees the bible the way most do, so what's your beef with me? I don't have a problem with Christians or anyone really. I just think it's kind of pointless for you to tell me my beliefs aren't in the bible when it seems some of your aren't either.

It makes it tough to argue when you can't use someones own book against them. I have the same problem debating you.
I would imagine the reason for that is because we know what we know...not from reading or being told, but from experience.

Something made you choose a course rarely chosen, a path that others stay well away from, even athiests. You say it's just your nature, perhaps it is.
The path was already there. I did not seek it out. Instead I found myself already walking on it. I sense though that you still misunderstand my path.

What makes me think that I am free to pick and choose what parts of the bible I believe? Free will baby! God's plan for our universe.
I agree that we have free will. Now why again should I not feel free to develop my own interpretations? I believe what I believe. Nobody can tell me it is right or wrong.

Lucifer had free will as well but he rebelled against his peers, the other ascended beings who keep God's original intent for the universe which is sentient life with free will.
That's nice, but that is your belief...not mine. Oh most certainly Lucifer rebelled. I don't deny that. I just disagree with your belief that God had any remotely favorable intent for mankind and I believe it was Lucifer that showed mankind free will.

Lucifer corrupted Satan and many others into his cause. The time for his judgement is nearing. The trouble he caused will be fixed.
Perhaps. We will see eventually though. At least we agree that Lucifer and Satan are not one in the same?

Sure I have the nerve to question you. This is a religious forum that you willingly frequent, isn't it? I only question you because you're interesting.
Very well, but I hope that you can acknowledge that your beliefs don't fall squarely in the paradigm either. You will not gain any understanding of my beliefs unless you accept that I do not see Lucifer in the same way as Christianity sees Lucifer. If you start asking questions instead of making statements, you might get further. Or maybe we want to start a thread about my beliefs?

Adam and Eve were not Immortal....and you are right about not being able to know which choice is good or bad, seeing as how they had no knowledge of good and evil before they ate the fruit. God gave them free will with a desire for knowledge. Then God puts a tree with great knowledge in it and tells them not to eat it for they will die. Serpant comes along and says you will not die. And serpant was right. All this is covered in Genesis 3.
Agreed.

You find it so easy to believe these human faults in God but you cannot accept them in His Son?
Quite honestly, I believe Jesus was a better man than his father.
 

Evandr2

Member
Malkav's Knight said:
Adam and Eve were not Immortal....and you are right about not being able to know which choice is good or bad, seeing as how they had no knowledge of good and evil before they ate the fruit. God gave them free will with a desire for knowledge. Then God puts a tree with great knowledge in it and tells them not to eat it for they will die. Serpant comes along and says you will not die. And serpant was right. All this is covered in Genesis 3.

The death of the body was not introduced to mortality until after adam and eve were cast out of the Garden. "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." (corinthians 15:22) Remember that the natural man cannot abide the presence of God. While in the Garden, Adam and Eve had a casual relationship with God and Jesus Christ. They could not have had such a relationship if their bodies were not sufficiently glorified. The death spoken of by God when he commanded them not to partake of the Fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil was not the death of the physical body but the death of the spirit by it being denied the continued presence of the Father. This happened when they were cast out.

The death of the flesh is a natural consequence of mortality for which all mankind will be resurrected because of the atonment of Christ. Avoiding the death of the spirit, which is damnation because our progression has and ened and we are denied the presence of the father, is something that we have to earn.

If you want to read more of what I have to say I invite you to visit my faithandevidence.com

Vandr
 
Ðanisty said:
Perhaps. We will see eventually though. At least we agree that Lucifer and Satan are not one in the same?

Finally...someone who understands that Lucifer is not Satan, as in, Lucifer is not the Satan that modern Christians believe him to be.

Satan is a title: God's Adversary.
Lucifer is a kind of Satan, but the main Satan, the so called Great Evil, is not Lucifer.
Older scripts actual say his name was Sammael. I would tend to believe the older scriptures than the compiled Holy Bible.
 
Evandr2 said:
The death of the body was not introduced to mortality until after adam and eve were cast out of the Garden. "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." (corinthians 15:22) Remember that the natural man cannot abide the presence of God. While in the Garden, Adam and Eve had a casual relationship with God and Jesus Christ. They could not have had such a relationship if their bodies were not sufficiently glorified. The death spoken of by God when he commanded them not to partake of the Fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil was not the death of the physical body but the death of the spirit by it being denied the continued presence of the Father. This happened when they were cast out.

The death of the flesh is a natural consequence of mortality for which all mankind will be resurrected because of the atonment of Christ. Avoiding the death of the spirit, which is damnation because our progression has and ened and we are denied the presence of the father, is something that we have to earn.

If you want to read more of what I have to say I invite you to visit my faithandevidence.com

Vandr

So pretty much, to you, it is a here-say interpretation. Because, "The man has now become like us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever" (Genesis 3: 22) Meaning, to me, that the life God mentions is not spiritual life, but physical life, because the spirit is already eternal.
 
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