Who is the Baha’i Jesus and how does He differ from the Christian Jesus?

[Muffled]

I don’t think the concept is there either. But, perhaps you could show it, if you think it is there?

John 10:30 I and the Father are one.”

John 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper,6 to be with you forever, 17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be7 in you.
18 “I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19 Yet a little while and the world will see me no more, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20 In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you

 

[firedragon]

I looked on Wikipedia and it said The Gospel of Barnabas was written in the 16th or 17th century. Not only that but it takes a non-Christian view of Christianity as Wkipedia says: "it conforms to the Islamic interpretation of Christian origins and contradicts the New Testament teachings of Christianity."

Who said Gospel of Barnabas?

Please do some research on your own Bible. And please read the comment properly prior to doing this kind of shallow research. I have said epistle of Barnabas, not Gospel of Barnabas.

 

[1213]

John 10:30 I and the Father are one.”

John 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper,6 to be with you forever, 17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be7 in you.
18 “I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19 Yet a little while and the world will see me no more, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20 In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you

Ok, thanks. Perhaps this depends also on what is meant with Trinity. However, also disciples of Jesus are one with God. I don’t think that makes Trinity.

I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them through your name which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are.
John 17:11

that they may all be one; even as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that you sent me.
John 17:21

 

[firedragon]

John 10:30 I and the Father are one.”

John 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper,6 to be with you forever, 17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be7 in you.
18 “I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19 Yet a little while and the world will see me no more, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20 In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you

Why will no one attempt to provide biblical evidence that the Holy Spirit is one of the Trinity? Is it a natural inclination to purely focus on God the father and Jesus because that's what's easy in your eyes?

All of these posts are the same.

 

[CG Didymus]

Baha’is would consider Paul an Apostle of Christ and his letters such as those to Romans and Corinthians as authentic and authoritative.

Well, some Baha'is don't think much of Paul. What Udo Schaefer says contradicts what you just said? Is it the "official" position that Paul is okay.

The Light Shineth in Darkness, Studies in revelation after Christ by Udo Schaefer. This section explains how Paul changed the Christianity of Jesus. It is important to note that the views expressed by this author reflect his individual perspective and do not represent the official views of the Baha'i Faith.

The Universal House of Justice provided important clarification as to the Baha’i position based on the Baha’i writings in a letter to an individual believer during 1984:

The Bahá'ís believe what is in the Bible to be true in substance. This does not mean that every word recorded in that Book is to be taken literally and treated as the authentic saying of a Prophet. A striking example is given in the account of the sacrifice which Abraham was called upon to make. The Guardian of the Faith confirms that the record in the Qur'an and the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh, namely that it was Ishmael, and not Isaac as stated in the Old Testament, whom Abraham was to sacrifice, is to be upheld. In one of His Tablets 'Abdu'l-Bahá refers to this discrepancy, and explains that, from a spiritual point of view, it is irrelevant which son was involved. The essential part of the story is that Abraham was willing to obey God's command to sacrifice His son. Thus, although the account in the Torah is inaccurate in detail, it is true in substance....
(9 August 1984 to an individual believer)

The Bible

Since this thread is already "derailed" I thought I'd ask it on this thread. How do Baha'is explain these verses?

Hebrews 11:17
By faith, Abraham, being tested, offered up Isaac. Yes, he who had gladly received the promises was offering up his one and only son...

James 2:21
Wasn't Abraham our father justified by works, in that he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?​

 

[lukethethird]

Who is the Baha’i Jesus and how does He differ from the Christian Jesus?

Just so you know, Paul warned us about those preaching a false Jesus in
2 Corinthians 11:4

 

[Dawnofhope]

Well, some Baha'is don't think much of Paul. What Udo Schaefer says contradicts what you just said? Is it the "official" position that Paul is okay.

Udo Schaefer is a Baha’i scholar and has no special authority as such.

Paul is praised in the Baha’i writings:

In considering the relationship between St. Peter and St. Paul, one needs to bear in mind all of these various factors. High praise in accorded to them both in the Bahá'í Writings. A particularly pertinent statement by 'Abdu'l-Bahá appears on page 223 of the new publication Selections from the Writings of 'Abdu'l-Bahá:[4]

One's conduct must be like the conduct of Paul, and one's faith similar to that of Peter.
(25 February 1980 written on behalf of the
Universal House of Justice to an individual)

Apostle Paul, a "False Teacher"?

Since this thread is already "derailed" I thought I'd ask it on this thread. How do Baha'is explain these verses?
Hebrews 11:17
By faith, Abraham, being tested, offered up Isaac. Yes, he who had gladly received the promises was offering up his one and only son...

James 2:21
Wasn't Abraham our father justified by works, in that he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?

There are a variety of ways of looking at these verses, including literal or metaphor. As we know through Isaac came Judaism and Christianity whereas through Ishmael cane Islam. The apostles use the story of Genesis about the sacrifice of Isaac as a metaphor for the sacrifice of Christ.

Did Abraham really sacrifice Isaac in the manner described in Genesis? Probably not, but the story teaches us about the nature of sacrifice and obedience to God. Whether it literally happened has no significance.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Who is the Baha’i Jesus and how does He differ from the Christian Jesus?

Just so you know, Paul warned us about those preaching a false Jesus in
2 Corinthians 11:4

Christian scriptures also exhorts their followers to recognise the Messiah when He comes.

 

[Trailblazer]

Who is the Baha’i Jesus and how does He differ from the Christian Jesus?

Just so you know, Paul warned us about those preaching a false Jesus in
2 Corinthians 11:4

Who is to say that the Christian Jesus is the true Jesus?
How can we know?

 

[CG Didymus]

Udo Schaefer is a Baha’i scholar and has no special authority as such.

Paul is praised in the Baha’i writings:

In considering the relationship between St. Peter and St. Paul, one needs to bear in mind all of these various factors. High praise in accorded to them both in the Bahá'í Writings. A particularly pertinent statement by 'Abdu'l-Bahá appears on page 223 of the new publication Selections from the Writings of 'Abdu'l-Bahá:[4]

One's conduct must be like the conduct of Paul, and one's faith similar to that of Peter.
(25 February 1980 written on behalf of the
Universal House of Justice to an individual)

Apostle Paul, a "False Teacher"?



There are a variety of ways of looking at these verses, including literal or metaphor. As we know through Isaac came Judaism and Christianity whereas through Ishmael cane Islam. The apostles use the story of Genesis about the sacrifice of Isaac as a metaphor for the sacrifice of Christ.

Did Abraham really sacrifice Isaac in the manner described in Genesis? Probably not, but the story teaches us about the nature of sacrifice and obedience to God. Whether it literally happened has no significance.

Thanks Adrian. But... if it didn't "literally" happen, to me, still, it's just a fictional myth. Why would there be an "original" version that had Ishmael? Then why change the fictional story to Isaac? It just seems that since it is a Jewish story, and Isaac is their patriarch, that the "original", "mythical", "symbolic" story makes more sense for them to have Isaac.

 

[CG Didymus]

Just so you know, Paul warned us about those preaching a false Jesus in
2 Corinthians 11:4

Christian scriptures also exhorts their followers to recognise the Messiah when He comes.

Matt 24:5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. 6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.​

I know it's just a little thing, but... Christians have the bad stuff happening and then Jesus comes. Baha'is have some bad stuff happen, Baha'u'llah comes, gets rejected, dies, and more bad stuff happens and when things get so bad, the people of the world turn to the Baha'i Faith. Either one could still be right, since both have bad stuff happening.

 

[firedragon]

Christian scriptures also exhorts their followers to recognise the Messiah when He comes.

Yet Adrian, "Christian Scriptures" also have many many surrounding effects when and with the return of the Messiah. Thats a whole other debate altogether. I believe going into the eschatological similes and differences between the Biblical and Babi pictures would take another thread.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Yet Adrian, "Christian Scriptures" also have many many surrounding effects when and with the return of the Messiah. Thats a whole other debate altogether. I believe going into the eschatological similes and differences between the Biblical and Babi pictures would take another thread.

I agree its another topic and a distraction from the OP. For the purposes of this thread, I’m not interested in whether if someone believes Jesus, Muhammad, the Bab or Bahá’u’lláh are true or false Prophets. That discussion just becomes unproductive and a means for adherents of one religion to bash another.

What is relevant is that from an historical perspective an itinerant Jewish Preacher was baptised and crucified. That is the historical Jesus that most of us can agree on. The Christian scriptures, the Quran and Baha’i writings each add that basic portrait of who Jesus is. So Christian, Islamic and Baha’i culture have developed their unique perspectives.

 

[firedragon]

I agree its another topic and a distraction from the OP. For the purposes of this thread, I’m not interested in whether if someone believes Jesus, Muhammad, the Bab or Bahá’u’lláh are true or false Prophets. That discussion just becomes unproductive and a means for adherents of one religion to bash another.

What is relevant is that from an historical perspective an itinerant Jewish Preacher was baptised and crucified. That is the historical Jesus that most of us can agree on. The Christian scriptures, the Quran and Baha’i writings each add that basic portrait of who Jesus is. So Christian, Islamic and Baha’i culture have developed their unique perspectives.

Questions of interest to Bahai's

 

[CG Didymus]

Udo Schaefer is a Baha’i scholar and has no special authority as such.

Paul is praised in the Baha’i writings:

In considering the relationship between St. Peter and St. Paul, one needs to bear in mind all of these various factors. High praise in accorded to them both in the Bahá'í Writings. A particularly pertinent statement by 'Abdu'l-Bahá appears on page 223 of the new publication Selections from the Writings of 'Abdu'l-Bahá:[4]

One's conduct must be like the conduct of Paul, and one's faith similar to that of Peter.
(25 February 1980 written on behalf of the
Universal House of Justice to an individual)

Apostle Paul, a "False Teacher"?



There are a variety of ways of looking at these verses, including literal or metaphor. As we know through Isaac came Judaism and Christianity whereas through Ishmael cane Islam. The apostles use the story of Genesis about the sacrifice of Isaac as a metaphor for the sacrifice of Christ.

Did Abraham really sacrifice Isaac in the manner described in Genesis? Probably not, but the story teaches us about the nature of sacrifice and obedience to God. Whether it literally happened has no significance.

Also, where is it in the writings where it talks about why Adam is thought to be a manifestation. All I hear from Baha'is here on the forum is that the Bible story of Adam is symbolic and I think that came from Abdul Baha in Some Answered Questions. Thanks

 

[Dawnofhope]

Thanks Adrian. But... if it didn't "literally" happen, to me, still, it's just a fictional myth. Why would there be an "original" version that had Ishmael? Then why change the fictional story to Isaac? It just seems that since it is a Jewish story, and Isaac is their patriarch, that the "original", "mythical", "symbolic" story makes more sense for them to have Isaac.

Why do you think it matters? The only value I can see in the story is about what it teaches us about sacrifice and the nature of our relationship to God. The sacrifice of Isaac as recorded in Genesis seems to pre-empt the sacrifice of Christ. The story in regard Ishmael in the Quran is meaningful to Muslims. It has no historical value.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Also, where is it in the writings where it talks about why Adam is thought to be a manifestation. All I hear from Baha'is here on the forum is that the Bible story of Adam is symbolic and I think that came from Abdul Baha in Some Answered Questions. Thanks

It is correct 'Abdu'l-Baha mentions Adam in the Some Answered Questions. However He is also mentioned in the Quran which Baha'is regard as the Word of God.

Adam in Islam - Wikipedia

 

[CG Didymus]

Why do you think it matters? The only value I can see in the story is about what it teaches us about sacrifice and the nature of our relationship to God. The sacrifice of Isaac as recorded in Genesis seems to pre-empt the sacrifice of Christ. The story in regard Ishmael in the Quran is meaningful to Muslims. It has no historical value.

If it is a fictional story, then yes, why does it matter. It didn't happen. But then, why change it? But our relationship to God? It teaches us not to question insane requests? How many people would really go ahead with that request? Thinking that it is God? I hope no one.

The other problem is... that it would mean Jewish scribes changed the story. To change what the Bible originally said would be a huge deal... especially if it was a real, historical event. I don't believe they did. So then what does that say about Muhammad and the Quran and the Baha'is?

It is correct 'Abdu'l-Baha mentions Adam in the Some Answered Questions. However He is also mentioned in the Quran which Baha'is regard as the Word of God.

Adam in Islam - Wikipedia

Thanks, as you know, I have a problem with Adam being a "manifestation". The Genesis version doesn't give me any reason to believe that he was. And actually, like the Ishmael, Isaac story, it gives me very little reason to believe that Adam was a real, historical person. So then, why make a mythical person a manifestation? I haven't read it yet, but I get the feeling that the Islamic story of Adam won't help support the belief that he was a manifestation. The qualifications are too high... a perfectly polished mirror? I don't think I'll find evidence of that... but who knows.

 

[CG Didymus]

It is correct 'Abdu'l-Baha mentions Adam in the Some Answered Questions. However He is also mentioned in the Quran which Baha'is regard as the Word of God.

Adam in Islam - Wikipedia

I've looked at that before. In the part where it talks about Adam in the Quran, it still sounds like from a Baha'i perspective, that it would have to be a symbolic story... since it has archangels and Satan in it and Adam being made out of clay. So, from what I can tell, pretty much all the "manifestations" taken from the Bible are possibly completely fictional as well as the stories regarding their long, long lives. As you know, I'm perfectly fine with the ancient Hebrews writing mythical stories about how they came to be and about their God. Some Jews, I'm sure, take the stories literally. Some Christians do also. But, Baha'is make the stories symbolic but seem to make the characters as real, and then make some of them manifestations? I'll have to read that Baha'i story about Noah again where is has him still living for 950 years. I just think things should have been made much, much more clear, since this is the foundation from which all the other Abrahamic religions are built on. Anyway, thanks Adrian.

 

[CG Didymus]

So with this thread I’d like to explore and compare the Christian Jesus and the Baha’i Jesus.

Before this thread goes away... From what I understand about the Baha'i Jesus is that he was the Jewish Messiah. He was born of a virgin, but he didn't rise physically from the dead. His body died and only his spirit rose. He isn't the one that was going to return. His "dispensation" ended with the coming of Muhammad. He is not the "only" way to God. He is not God. There is no Satan. Those and other beliefs were Christians misinterpreting his teachings and what the gospels and Paul say about him. Is that close or is there anything you'd like to add or subtract?