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Who is more criminally dangerous: the theist or the atheist?

Maximilian

Energetic proclaimer of Jehovah God's Kingdom.
On Atheism-

1. Abiogenesis is true.
2. Pre-Biotic Evolution is true.
3. It's fine to murder babies.
4. Morality does not exist.
5. Nothing should stop gays from marrying their boy lovers.

Therefore, these feel that there was nothing and nothing happened to nothing and then nothing magically exploded for no reason, creating everything, and then a bunch of everything magically rearranged itself into self-replicating bits which then magically came to life.

Therefore, we are merely concomitant nimieties of the natural world having developed fairly recently on a minute speck left high and dry somewhere in a dreary and meaningless universe, doomed to oblivion one by one and certainly collectively in a relatively not too distant future.

As a world-famous proponent of this philosophy candidly expressed-
"The greatest obstacle to my freedom, the greatest block and limitation to it, consists in the insupportable ‘value judgment’ that I was bound to respect the rights of others. I asked myself, who were these ‘others’? Other human beings, with human rights? Why is it more wrong to kill a human animal than any other animal, a pig or a sheep or a steer? Is your life more to you than a hog’s life to a hog? Why should I be willing to sacrifice my pleasure more for the one than for the other?

Surely, you would not, in this age of scientific enlightenment, declare that God or nature has marked some pleasures as ‘moral’ or ‘good’ and others as ‘immoral’ or ‘bad’? In any case, let me assure you, my dear young lady, that there is absolutely no comparison between the pleasure I might take in eating ham and the pleasure I anticipate in raping and murdering you. That is the honest conclusion to which my education has led me—after the most conscientious examination of my spontaneous and uninhibited self.”"
-Ted Bundy, paraphrased and rewritten by Harry V. Jaffa, Homosexuality and the National Law (Claremont Institute of the Study of Statesmanship and Political Philosophy, 1990), 3–4

As such, Atheism is a threat to all who love life and choose to live morally.

91ab4b3ee389994c1e3d8bdd0a71c8a3818dbcf5ac9f339154b4e1ec0522265d.jpg
 

Maximilian

Energetic proclaimer of Jehovah God's Kingdom.
Most studies look at the effects of religiosity, not spiritually. However, this study(Jang, 2013), examined for the first time spirituality as well, but they also, kinda, measured atheism/agnosticism.

If I may ask, have you ever been diagnosed with ASD?
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
The general consensus(Johnson, 2010) in science is that religiosity negatively associates with crime. In other words, the more religious the person is, the less likely they'll commit a crime or take licit drugs. These studies have been replicated in numerous countries(Brauer, 2013) with the same results. One of the shortfalls for these studies was that most of the participants were Christians. So, it is only generalisable for Christians. Another limitation is that the mechanism of this association is unknown. Some psychologists think it may be related to social control theory and that religion teaches self-control.

If it was self-control or another facet of religiosity, then the assumption is that non-believers would be more prone to committing crime and there is some stigma towards non-believers, in some countries, that atheists are dangerous. Unfortunately, most of the studies done on religiosity do not properly measure non-belief or ignore it altogether. One study(Jang, 2013) measured non-belief and found non-belief also negatively associated with criminal behaviour, and the spiritual-but-not-religious was positively associated with criminal behaviour. However, a recently study(Schroeder et. al., 2017), and the one I would like to talk about, noted this disparity in these measures and consequently measured agnosticism and atheism correctly. They found atheists and agnostics have similar statistics to the highly religious. In fact, the most criminally dangerous group were the uncertain believers. It was more likely an uncertain believer would take illicit material and commit crimes(see image - image from Schroeder et. al., 2017).
Therefore, if there is any stigma towards the morality of atheists/agnostics, science tells a different story.

I tried to find the open-source papers, but it's not always possible. The main discussion here is on Schroeder et al., but any may suffice.

Why do you think uncertain believers have a tendency to commit more crime?
Edit: I’ve added bold to the links since it seems like the blue might be difficult to see. There are FOUR links in the OP.


Cuw4FhQ.jpg
I've only read the abstracts of scientific studies, but with the exception of the stud you cited, they all basically put forth the same theory -- the "true believer" thinks he is being watched at all times, and being observed changes how one behaves.

It would be interesting to see if your study is replicable. If it is, the more interesting question would be, why are atheists and agnostics an exception to the rule?
 

charlie sc

Well-Known Member
why in the world would you ask this?
He's trolling.

I've only read the abstracts of scientific studies, but with the exception of the stud you cited, they all basically put forth the same theory -- the "true believer" thinks he is being watched at all times, and being observed changes how one behaves.
Yep, social control theory.

t would be interesting to see if your study is replicable. If it is, the more interesting question would be, why are atheists and agnostics an exception to the rule?
I doubt they are the exception. Schroeder(2017) proposed social identity theory. Atheists and agnostics may have a strong sense of identity, and certain studies reflect this, similar to the highly religious. Therefore, there is a strong sense of social bonding. However, uncertain believers have neither bonding nor fear. There could be other explanations, like upbringing and self-control. So it's not that atheists or agnostics are immune, its more like the uncertain believers are more prone to criminal behaviour. Hopefully it will be replicated.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
I doubt they are the exception. Schroeder(2017) proposed social identity theory. Atheists and agnostics may have a strong sense of identity, and certain studies reflect this, similar to the highly religious. Therefore, there is a strong sense of social bonding. However, uncertain believers have neither bonding nor fear. There could be other explanations, like upbringing and self-control. So it's not that atheists or agnostics are immune, its more like the uncertain believers are more prone to criminal behaviour. Hopefully it will be replicated.
What kind of social bonding are you referring to that atheists and agnostics have? I'm not trying to be insulting. I agree they have a strong identity. But from my experience they tend to be more individualistic, willing to stand apart from groups for the sake of "the truth." IOW there really isn't anything in atheism or agnosticism that is comparable to the religious community to be bonded to. So I'm wondering what you are referring to instead.
 

The Reverend Bob

Fart Machine and Beastmaster
What kind of social bonding are you referring to that atheists and agnostics have? I'm not trying to be insulting. I agree they have a strong identity. But from my experience they tend to be more individualistic, willing to stand apart from groups for the sake of "the truth." IOW there really isn't anything in atheism or agnosticism that is comparable to the religious community to be bonded to. So I'm wondering what you are referring to instead.
The weak point in this whole thing is "uncertain believers"
 

David T

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Thats far too deep for this thread therefore a RF rules violation. We are talking about unicorns, and autistics struggle understanding unicorn logic!!!

That said, my neurology synesthesia writes poetic language, sings, creates story telling using unicorns etc. as analogy. Its not science it poetry!!!! From those writings generates all kinds of fans which we call religion or comicon! Very similar Actually! RF is the debate inside that social cultural collective. Obviously it doesnt make literal sense since well, Its normal. Its Especially confusing for those on the extreme ends of the neurologicaL spectrum. Thus autism and synesthesisia as Those two extreme ends of that singular spectrum.

The debate here falls into the bell curve "normal." Yes nonsense but hell thats "normal".
 

David T

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
No one has
The general consensus(Johnson, 2010) in science is that religiosity negatively associates with crime. In other words, the more religious the person is, the less likely they'll commit a crime or take licit drugs. These studies have been replicated in numerous countries(Brauer, 2013) with the same results. One of the shortfalls for these studies was that most of the participants were Christians. So, it is only generalisable for Christians. Another limitation is that the mechanism of this association is unknown. Some psychologists think it may be related to social control theory and that religion teaches self-control.

If it was self-control or another facet of religiosity, then the assumption is that non-believers would be more prone to committing crime and there is some stigma towards non-believers, in some countries, that atheists are dangerous. Unfortunately, most of the studies done on religiosity do not properly measure non-belief or ignore it altogether. One study(Jang, 2013) measured non-belief and found non-belief also negatively associated with criminal behaviour, and the spiritual-but-not-religious was positively associated with criminal behaviour. However, a recently study(Schroeder et. al., 2017), and the one I would like to talk about, noted this disparity in these measures and consequently measured agnosticism and atheism correctly. They found atheists and agnostics have similar statistics to the highly religious. In fact, the most criminally dangerous group were the uncertain believers. It was more likely an uncertain believer would take illicit material and commit crimes(see image - image from Schroeder et. al., 2017).
Therefore, if there is any stigma towards the morality of atheists/agnostics, science tells a different story.

I tried to find the open-source papers, but it's not always possible. The main discussion here is on Schroeder et al., but any may suffice.

Why do you think uncertain believers have a tendency to commit more crime?
Edit: I’ve added bold to the links since it seems like the blue might be difficult to see. There are FOUR links in the OP.


Cuw4FhQ.jpg
No one has bothered to check on the validity of psychological studies. The discussion is a lost in the trees discussion with an infinite set of possible answers.
 

charlie sc

Well-Known Member
What kind of social bonding are you referring to that atheists and agnostics have? I'm not trying to be insulting. I agree they have a strong identity. But from my experience they tend to be more individualistic, willing to stand apart from groups for the sake of "the truth." IOW there really isn't anything in atheism or agnosticism that is comparable to the religious community to be bonded to. So I'm wondering what you are referring to instead.
I'll copy and past a large segment, because there is evidence to back it up. Of course, this should be taken, like all studies, with scepticism.

Cameron (2004) outlines three non-mutually exclusive factors that constitute social identity. The
first factor, centrality, is defined as the frequency at which the given group “comes to mind” in daily
interactions and the subjective importance of the group to one’s self-concept. In a recent qualitative
assessment of the identity formation process of American atheists, Smith (2011) found that social
identification as a non-believer is an important aspect of crystallizing one’s identity, and that as part of
the process of crystallization, the atheist identity is moved to the top of the identity hierarchy. In accord
with Stryker’s (1968) position that higher-order identities are of greater importance to definitions of
the self, understanding of social events and processes, and shaping behaviors, Smith’s (2011) research
clearly indicates that the atheist identity is one of the (if not the) most salient identity for non-believers.
Further, “coming out” as a non-believer, similar to the process of “coming out” as a homosexual
(O’Brien 2004), creates social pain and discomfort that further solidifies identity and serves as a
constant reminder of one’s deviant status (Smith 2011).
In-group affect encompasses the emotional aspects of group identity (Cameron 2004; Rosenberg
1979). Tajfel and Turner (1979) claim that emotional connections associated with group membership are
central to social identity theory, as positive or negative evaluations of group membership structure the
degree of affective ties to the group, group identity salience, and related behavioral outcomes. Often
referred to as private collective self-esteem (see Luhtanen and Crocker 1992), in-group affect refers to the
subjective emotional evaluation of group membership (i.e., “I feel good about the religious group I belong
to”; see Ysseldyk et al. 2011). In a study of religious identification among American Atheists, Catholics,
Jews, Muslims, and Protestants, Ysseldyk et al. (2011) found that atheists express statistically similar
levels of private collective self-esteem when compared to the other aforementioned religiously oriented
groups. In other words, atheists generally “feel good” about their group membership, which falls in line
with the degree of in-group affect expressed by members of established religious groups.
Lastly, in-group ties reference “the psychological ties that bind the self to the group” (Cameron
2004, 242). This emotional closeness to the group, or group cohesion, reflects a sense of belonging
and bonding for group members (Brown et al. 1986; Cameron and Lalonde 2001; Phinney 1992).
When using the “feeling thermometer” (see Cairns et al. 2006) to measure in-group ties among
atheists and established religious groups, Ysseldyk et al. (2011) found that non-believers showed the
highest level of emotional closeness to their group and achieved a level that was higher than all of the
other religious groups questioned (i.e., Catholics, Jews, Muslims, and Protestants).
Taken together, the evidence suggests that non-believers hold a strong social identity and
likely experience benefits from their strong group identification, similar to the benefits of strong
group identification for religious believers (see Baumeister and Leary 1995).

So, part of their identity is atheism or agnosticism and it's quite strong. However, this is not good enough to explain why atheists or agnostics do not have similar crime association to the uncertain believers, but it's beyond the scope of this study. I'm sure there are numerous explanations why and perhaps uncertain belief is the cause of something else, like trauma. Hence, drifting like this may be a coping mechanism. Just as a note, social identity theory or social control theory was not measured in this study.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
The general consensus(Johnson, 2010) in science is that religiosity negatively associates with crime. In other words, the more religious the person is, the less likely they'll commit a crime or take licit drugs. These studies have been replicated in numerous countries(Brauer, 2013) with the same results. One of the shortfalls for these studies was that most of the participants were Christians. So, it is only generalisable for Christians. Another limitation is that the mechanism of this association is unknown. Some psychologists think it may be related to social control theory and that religion teaches self-control.

If it was self-control or another facet of religiosity, then the assumption is that non-believers would be more prone to committing crime and there is some stigma towards non-believers, in some countries, that atheists are dangerous. Unfortunately, most of the studies done on religiosity do not properly measure non-belief or ignore it altogether. One study(Jang, 2013) measured non-belief and found non-belief also negatively associated with criminal behaviour, and the spiritual-but-not-religious was positively associated with criminal behaviour. However, a recently study(Schroeder et. al., 2017), and the one I would like to talk about, noted this disparity in these measures and consequently measured agnosticism and atheism correctly. They found atheists and agnostics have similar statistics to the highly religious. In fact, the most criminally dangerous group were the uncertain believers. It was more likely an uncertain believer would take illicit material and commit crimes(see image - image from Schroeder et. al., 2017).
Therefore, if there is any stigma towards the morality of atheists/agnostics, science tells a different story.

I tried to find the open-source papers, but it's not always possible. The main discussion here is on Schroeder et al., but any may suffice.

Why do you think uncertain believers have a tendency to commit more crime?
Edit: I’ve added bold to the links since it seems like the blue might be difficult to see. There are FOUR links in the OP.


Cuw4FhQ.jpg
Well fleecing people out of life savings in exchange for lies, faith healing against proper medical advice, pushing ingorance in education, forcing behaviors on adherents that lead to things like rape, pedophilia, cover-ups........ well I guess those aren't tendency for crimes then.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
On Atheism-

1. Abiogenesis is true.
2. Pre-Biotic Evolution is true.
3. It's fine to murder babies.
4. Morality does not exist.
5. Nothing should stop gays from marrying their boy lovers.

Therefore, these feel that there was nothing and nothing happened to nothing and then nothing magically exploded for no reason, creating everything, and then a bunch of everything magically rearranged itself into self-replicating bits which then magically came to life.

Therefore, we are merely concomitant nimieties of the natural world having developed fairly recently on a minute speck left high and dry somewhere in a dreary and meaningless universe, doomed to oblivion one by one and certainly collectively in a relatively not too distant future.

As a world-famous proponent of this philosophy candidly expressed-
-Ted Bundy, paraphrased and rewritten by Harry V. Jaffa, Homosexuality and the National Law (Claremont Institute of the Study of Statesmanship and Political Philosophy, 1990), 3–4

As such, Atheism is a threat to all who love life and choose to live morally.

91ab4b3ee389994c1e3d8bdd0a71c8a3818dbcf5ac9f339154b4e1ec0522265d.jpg
I didn't realize Bundy was the poster boy. Oh my.
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
The weak point in this whole thing is "uncertain believers"

The title of the thread is again 'Theist versus Atheist' -
Who is more criminally dangerous: the theist or the atheist?

But the thread creator refers to a single paper, which cannot be examined however, to propose discussion on how 'uncertain believers' are most dangerous. He reproduces from the paper a single continuous curve (Fig. 2 in OP) showing how criminality exponentially rises from 'believer' category to 'uncertain believer' category and then exponentially decreases to 'non believer' category. It is not clear how a continuous curve was obtained connecting three distinct different categories? As of now, to me, the curve itself is suspect.

Then what is 'uncertain believer'?

No one has bothered to check on the validity of psychological studies. The discussion is a lost in the trees discussion with an infinite set of possible answers.

The paper under discussion is not available for examination.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
So to summarize, the religious theist and the firm atheist or agnostic are reasonably assured to act morally. The person who can't be trusted is the theist who is not religious.

so much for "I'm spiritual, not religious," eh.
 
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