Who is Jesus?

[joeboonda]

From the looks of America, that 'one' religion is Christianity.

What I am saying is that the False Prophet of the Tribulation, who will rule the One-World Religion, will combine all the religions under one umbrella. He will combine Christianity, Mohamadism, Budhism, etc. all under one world religion. The USA actually promotes freedom of religion where you can worship any god you want any way you want, unlike many Arab nations who will KILL you if you do not follow Islam.

 

[Ormiston]

What I am saying is that the False Prophet of the Tribulation, who will rule the One-World Religion, will combine all the religions under one umbrella. He will combine Christianity, Mohamadism, Budhism, etc. all under one world religion. The USA actually promotes freedom of religion where you can worship any god you want any way you want, unlike many Arab nations who will KILL you if you do not follow Islam.

Well, I don't believe in prophesies and I was being sarcastic, so I probably shouldn't have even posted.

 

[Squirt]

Thankfully we are getting somewhere now. Squirt you acknowledge that a reformation of the church took place when people realised that it had fallen in apostasy. You mentioned the names of the people involved in the reformation - many more paid the price with their lives.
Now tell me, what was it in that reformation that they failed to do - in that the church was still in apostasy? Obviously the reformed church must have fallen into apostasy for the Book of Morman to have been given. Now since these reformed churches preached the gospel - the truth of salvation being as a result of what Jesus did. Can you tell me where the reformed church fell into apostasy? Obviously it had to have done otherwise there would have been no need for God to provide the book of Morman. What is the difference between the reformed church and the church of the latterday saints that God sees as being so significant that he would provide the book of Morman?

I hope you won't mind if I just post something I wrote up a couple of years ago as a response to a similar question someone else asked me. It may be overkill, and if it is, I apologize. It will just save me the trouble of composing a response to you that would pretty much say the same thing. Here's what I said in that little "article":

If Christ's Church did, in fact, fall into apostasy during its infancy, why would God wait until 1830 to restore that which was lost? And why wasn't the work of the great Reformers, such as Martin Luther and John Calvin sufficient to reform the Church if, in fact, the Church needed to be reformed at all?

While the Apostles predicted that a universal Apostasy would take place following their deaths, they also spoke of hope in a Restoration of that which was lost. As recorded in Acts 3:19-21, Peter prophesied of this restitution or “apokatastasis” (also translated as reconstitution, restoration or re-establishment) "when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.”

He did not specifically state when it would take place. However, he did say that Christ will not return until “the restitution of all things” had occurred. In other words, the second coming will take place after “all things” have been restored. The two events will not take place simultaneously. The Greek word for “until”, as used in this instance, is “achri.” It denotes completion of an act or event as in the statement, “You can’t go to the movies until you’ve cleaned your room.” Other examples of this usage are found in Luke 1:20, Romans 8:22 and Revelation 17:17.

In Revelation 14:6, John too spoke of the Restoration, when he described seeing "another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people…"

Many Protestants today believe that, while the Catholic Church had strayed markedly from the Church Christ established during His ministry, the Reformation of the 15th and 16th centuries resolved the doctrinal and organizational disputes of the prior millennium and a half. That the great reformers recognized the need for a return to the pure form of Christianity the Savior had established while on the earth is evident in their comments to that effect:

“I have sought nothing beyond reforming the Church in conformity with the Holy Scriptures. The spiritual powers have been… absolutely destroyed… I simply say that Christianity has ceased to exist among those who should have preserved it.” (Martin Luther, as quoted in Luther and His Times, page 509)

“[There is] no regularly constituted church of Christ on earth, nor any person authorized to administer any church ordinance, nor can there be until new apostles are sent by the great head of the Church, for whose coming I am seeking.” (Roger Williams, as quoted in Picturesque America, or the Land We Live In; edited by William Cullen Bryant; 1872)

“It does not appear that these extraordinary gifts of the Holy Spirit were common in the Church for more than two or three centuries…. From this time… the extraordinary gifts of the Holy Ghost were no longer to be found in the Christian church… The Christians… only had a dead form [of Christianity] left.” (John Wesley, as quoted in John Wesley’s Works, volume 7)

These men were sincere and well-meaning, and each of them was evidently disturbed by the lack of spiritual power and authority in the Church. Their attempts to reform those doctrines they saw to be in error were admirable (even inspired), but still an unsatisfactory solution to the problem. What Jesus Christ’s Church really needed was not a “reformation” but a “restoration.” Martin Luther, Roger Williams and John Wesley all unwittingly attempted to repair an old garment with a new piece of cloth and, as the Savior had warned, this was not the way things were to be done. (Matthew 9:16)

Finally, in 1830, the Lord saw fit to restore the fullness of His Gospel to the earth. The divinely-mandated “restitution of all things” had begun.

 

[joeboonda]

Actually, the Bible teaches that in the last days, wickedness shall wax worse and worse, apostasy and false prophets will increase, that men shall be mockers, and turn to lies and fables, that the Lawless One, Satan will abound more and more, that he will reach the pinnacle of his deceptive powers, and that ONLY the return of Jesus Christ will bring about the restoration, not the other way around. Jesus tarries now, as the Holy Spirit works through the Church (all Christians) to save everyone He can, but mankind will grow worse and worse and finaly Christ will snatch the Church up in the Rapture, and Satan will have his day. Only when Christ returns with ten-thousands of His saints (us) will Satan be finaly defeated, BY CHRIST, and be imprisoned for the Millenial Reign of Christ.

2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. (the rapture)
2:8 And then shall that Wicked (the antichrist)be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
(King James Bible, 2 Thessalonians)

5:19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.
(King James Bible, 1 John)

2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2:2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
2:3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
(King James Bible, 2 Peter)
3:1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance: 3:2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour: 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
(King James Bible, 2 Peter)

In the last days, MANY will follow false teachers who bring damnable heresies and even DENY the LORD. And there will come scoffers following their own lusts, DENYING THAT JESUS IS COMING. Satan will be rising, sin and false teachers and teachings, and scoffers and wickedness will INCREASE, NOT THE CHURCH. I don't have time nor is this really the place to debate dominionist or restorationist theology. All I can say, is the state of the world when Christ returns, at the END of the Great Tribulation, as seen in Revelation, when God pours His judgement out on this wicked world, (not on the church, we will be gone), will not be all restored and the church will not be in dominion to usher in Christ's Return. The world will Lay in utter WICKEDNESS, the Antichrist, False Prophet, and Satan ruling and reigning at the pinnacle of their power, THEN, only JESUS CHRIST will return and defeat Satan and set up His Millenial Kingdom. This is what the Bible says, this is what MOST theologians teach.

 

[Buttons*]

___________________________I know who Jesus is, and this isnt him!

 

[Squirt]

I don't have time nor is this really the place to debate dominionist or restorationist theology.

Thank God for that.

 

[joeboonda]

Lol at Buttons and Squirt, very funny!

 

[Squirt]

I believe Jesus is God and is from everlasting, that he was never a spirit child. Perhaps we can discuss this sometime.Glad you believe that, as I have read otherwise.

I'm just going to start out by stating that no, I have not decided to reconsider. I have no desire to discuss this with you. However, in reading what I posted yesterday, I realize that some clarification may be in order. Here's what I stated:

That would be entirely correct and entirely Biblical. Romans 8:29 states, “For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.” Jesus Christ is, in fact, the Son of God. That would make Him God’s “child.” Prior to His incarnation, He was a “spirit” without flesh and bones. That would make Him a “spirit child.” The fact that He was God’s firstborn, the fact that He was a male child (i.e. Son) of God and the fact that He was a spirit prior to His birth here on earth in no way means that He was not always God. We believe that He has been “God” for as long as He has existed, which is forever.

When I used the phrase "spirit child" in describing Jesus Christ, I did not mean to portray Him as a six-year old kid, listening to His Father read Him bedtime stories. He was a "child of God" only in that He was God's Son. He was also God -- from the beginning. He didn't become God somewhere along the line, either before His birth, during His life on earth or after He returned to His Father's presence.

I am my parents' child, even though it has been many years since I was actually an infant, a toddler, a pre-schooler, etc. I am their "child" in that ours is a parent-child relationship. Because I am their child, I look to my parents with love and respect, I trust them and honor them. Perhaps you will disagree, but I believe that Jesus Christ was not only the Son of God during His mortal life, but was also the Son of God prior to His incarnation and remained so after His resurrection. The two of them have had a true Father-Son relationship forever and will have that relationship forever. I also believe that, prior to being born to Mary, Jesus did not have a physical body of flesh and bones. He was, in other words, a spirit being.

 

[hanif]

58."This is what we rehearse unto thee of the Signs and the Message of Wisdom." http://www.kuran.gen.tr/pop_verse_recommend.php?kid=14&sid=3&ayet_no=59http://www.mobiquran.com/http://www.kuran.gen.tr/pop_sura_arapca.php?kid=14&sid=3&ayet_no=59http://www.mobiquran.com/59.The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was.
84.Say: "We believe in Allah, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the Prophets, from their Lord: We make no distinction between one and another among them, and to Allah do we bow our will (in Islám)."FROM THE LAST BOOK KURAN

 

[joeboonda]

I'm just going to start out by stating that no, I have not decided to reconsider. I have no desire to discuss this with you. However, in reading what I posted yesterday, I realize that some clarification may be in order. Here's what I stated:



When I used the phrase "spirit child" in describing Jesus Christ, I did not mean to portray Him as a six-year old kid, listening to His Father read Him bedtime stories. He was a "child of God" only in that He was God's Son. He was also God -- from the beginning. He didn't become God somewhere along the line, either before His birth, during His life on earth or after He returned to His Father's presence.

I am my parents' child, even though it has been many years since I was actually an infant, a toddler, a pre-schooler, etc. I am their "child" in that ours is a parent-child relationship. Because I am their child, I look to my parents with love and respect, I trust them and honor them. Perhaps you will disagree, but I believe that Jesus Christ was not only the Son of God during His mortal life, but was also the Son of God prior to His incarnation and remained so after His resurrection. The two of them have had a true Father-Son relationship forever and will have that relationship forever. I also believe that, prior to being born to Mary, Jesus did not have a physical body of flesh and bones. He was, in other words, a spirit being.

Thanks, Squirt, I understand what you mean, I think we acually believe pretty close about Jesus being the Son of God, I believe The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three distinct manifestations of God, each with a personality and a position and a special job to do. I believe they are all a part of one Supreme Being which I call God. I believe God has a 'presence' in Heaven, that He is on The Throne, I am not saying He has a body of flesh and bones, but that Heaven is like His 'headquarters' so to speak. I believe He is omnipresent, and omnipotent, He is everywhere and knows everything, and that He has manifested His presence to angels and man, like in the burning bush, the pillar of fire and the whirlwind, etc. Perhaps sometime I will try to discuss what may be differences in our beliefs about the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, but I think we are very close on many of our ideas.

 

[Ody]

Mohamadism,

The correct diction is "Islam".

 

[Squirt]

Thanks, Squirt, I understand what you mean, I think we acually believe pretty close about Jesus being the Son of God, I believe The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three distinct manifestations of God, each with a personality and a position and a special job to do. I believe they are all a part of one Supreme Being which I call God. I believe God has a 'presence' in Heaven, that He is on The Throne, I am not saying He has a body of flesh and bones, but that Heaven is like His 'headquarters' so to speak. I believe He is omnipresent, and omnipotent, He is everywhere and knows everything, and that He has manifested His presence to angels and man, like in the burning bush, the pillar of fire and the whirlwind, etc. Perhaps sometime I will try to discuss what may be differences in our beliefs about the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, but I think we are very close on many of our ideas.

I am truly speechless, joeboonda. This is the most civil post I've ever seen coming from you. I agree, we probably have more in common than we might at first believe. I agree with about 95% of what you have said.

 

[joeboonda]

I am truly speechless, joeboonda. This is the most civil post I've ever seen coming from you. I agree, we probably have more in common than we might at first believe. I agree with about 95% of what you have said.

Glad to hear that, I am not good at discussing things in a way that doesn't seem to come out wrong, but I am not so bad as folks might think as far as my attitude with people of different or slightly different beliefs.

 

[joeboonda]

The correct diction is "Islam".

Yeah, in some older books of mine they sometimes call Islam, Mohamadism or something similiar, I just reverted to that for some reason, lol.