Who is Jesus?

[Booko]

I'd be more impressed if they could link back to the Churches official site, but then again, nobody ever does, because they obviously know so much about the LDS Church that they can just say whatever they want and of course it's our doctrine. *Sigh*:bonk:

doncha just love the way people who brand other religions "cults" base their opinions on stuff that often has absolutely nothing to do with anything said religions actually teach?

It always amazes me some of the stuff people come up with about my religion. It's always amazed me some of the stuff that comes up about LDS too. It leaves you wondering what planet some folks inhabit, no?

 

[Bishka]

doncha just love the way people who brand other religions "cults" base their opinions on stuff that often has absolutely nothing to do with anything said religions actually teach?

It always amazes me some of the stuff people come up with about my religion. It's always amazed me some of the stuff that comes up about LDS too. It leaves you wondering what planet some folks inhabit, no?

Agreed. Most of them say, but my church, or this website SAYS this so it MUST be true. Are they really that ignorant? How about they go to the offical site and show me.

 

[joeboonda]

Your point is well taken. Fact of the matter is, you are correct. An apostasy is not the lack of teaching of religious dogma, it is the lack of the genuine authority of Jesus Christ on the earth.

Jesus Christ established a church and by the laying on of hands passed authority from himself to others. Part of the calling of those set apart by Christ was the authority to ordain still others to positions of authority through inspiration from Christ.

The key here is that the authority has to be able to trace it's lineage from person to person back to Christ Himself.

The authority to act in the name of Christ was taken from the earth when all who held that authority were destroyed not long after His ascension back to the Father. That was the beginning of apostacy. This made it necessary, if the church of Jesus Christ and the authority thereof were to be restored, that those on the other side of the veil manifest themselves and restored that authority personally. No man can take upon himself the authority of the priesthood.

Vandr

Yeah, I don't go along with all that. Christ is our high-priest and we have all been made priests in the body of Christ. I don't buy into the the whole 'lineage' deal. When we believe the Holy Spirit lives in us and empowers us to proclaim the Gospel. Christ's authority on the earth was not re-established by Joseph Smith or the Mormon Church, the Church, all who believe in Christ has been here all along.

 

[joeboonda]

Agreed. Most of them say, but my church, or this website SAYS this so it MUST be true. Are they really that ignorant? How about they go to the offical site and show me.

I understand that, and I understand that the official site does not contain all the statements of nor does the Mormon Church necessarily believe all the statements of your prophets throughout the history of the church. But some of these prophets said some things and that is what we find on a lot of the websites. Joseph Smith and Brigham Young and others made some statements and when we bring them up you say you do not believe that, yet they were your prophets. That is where some of the confusion comes in. I suppose they simply don't teach some of these 'quotes' anymore, and maybe that is good. I dunno.

 

[joeboonda]

Okay, I gotta go to work tomorrow, good nite and thanks for the replies, no hard feelings, Peace!

 

[Evandr2]

I agree, I am not confused as to what I believe, because it is from the Bible and is very straight-forward. I agree that you know much more about your church than do I, yet I wonder, why does most of main-stream Christianity seem to disagree with so much, we certainly do not accept the BOM, and disagree on certain doctrinal ideas, why is that? We believe we are right from a Biblical perspective, and you believe you are right. So, who is right? Both? Neither? You? Me? Why do you think people examine your doctrine with such scrutiny? To be mean, or because they care about you and want you to know the truth? I know that goes right back the same toward me, you all are trying to show me the truth you believe and I am trying to show you the truth I believe. All I am saying is we should always examine the truths we believe and be sure they measure up to the Bible.

You are correct, any written words that claim to be scripture must measure up to the Bible so long as the Bible has been translated correctly, but you fail to consider a very important fact. In my Biblical studies I have never come across ANY supposed scripture that could not be easily identified as a fraud. The spirit, language, and feel of such writing is always a dead give-away. The Book of Mormon is the one exception to that view. If it is a fraud then it existence defies all logic. The styles of writing are all different in themselves indicating that the different books (chapters) were all written by different people but the style of writing is also different from any present day dialect. This has been scientifically proven. It could not have been written by one man. The idea that it was written by a group of present day individuals that all had the ability to transgress the laws of logic and collectively overcome human psychological limitations is astronomically unlikely.

How did a young and largely uneducated boy undertake such an enormously complicated task as writing the Book of Mormon if it were not indeed a translation of ancient records brought about by the power of God through Joseph Smith as an instrument in His hands. I am still investigating that but have yet to find a logical answer. What I will not do is dismiss the idea just because a lot of other people do.

Vandr

 

[Evandr2]

Yeah, I don't go along with all that. Christ is our high-priest and we have all been made priests in the body of Christ. I don't buy into the the whole 'lineage' deal. When we believe the Holy Spirit lives in us and empowers us to proclaim the Gospel. Christ's authority on the earth was not re-established by Joseph Smith or the Mormon Church, the Church, all who believe in Christ has been here all along.

You need to read Hebrews 5:4 - 5

4 And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as [was] Aaron.
5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.

Not even Christ took authority unto himself, it was given to him by the Father. Verse 4 clearly indicates that no man can take this power unto himself.

Why would we need to be told that if the power were already within us and anybody could exorcize it?

Vandr

 

[EnhancedSpirit]

You need to read Hebrews 5:4 - 5

4 And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as [was] Aaron.
5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.

Not even Christ took authority unto himself, it was given to him by the Father. Verse 4 clearly indicates that no man can take this power unto himself.

Why would we need to be told that if the power were already within us and anybody could exorcize it?

Vandr

Let's look at the rest of the chapter, shall we, because in fact it does say that we should no longer be likes babes who need milk.
Hebrews 5:7 While he lived on earth, anticipating death, Jesus cried out in pain and wept in sorrow as he offered up priestly prayers to God. Because he honored God, God answered him. 8 Though he was God's Son, he learned trusting-obedience by what he suffered, just as we do. 9 Then, having arrived at the full stature of his maturity and having been announced by God as high priest in the order of Melchizedek,
10 he became the source of eternal salvation to all who believingly obey him. 11 I have a lot more to say about this, but it is hard to get it across to you since you've picked up this bad habit of not listening. 12 By this time you ought to be teachers yourselves, yet here I find you need someone to sit down with you and go over the basics on God again, starting from square one - baby's milk, when you should have been on solid food long ago! 13 Milk is for beginners, inexperienced in God's ways; 14 solid food is for the mature, who have some practice in telling right from wrong.

 

[Squirt]

Let's look at the rest of the chapter, shall we, because in fact it does say that we should no longer be likes babes who need milk.

Hi, Spirit. I don't believe this passage is telling us that authority will be passé once we have reached a certain level of spiritual maturity. Jesus Christ did establish an institutional Church and He built it on a foundation of Prophets and Apostles. He set apart individuals to fill certain roles and gave them the authority to act in His name. Paul said that this organization was to exist until we all came into a unity of faith and knowledge. Paul was speaking of the esoteric teachings which did, in fact, exist in the primitive Church -- much to the frustration of certain Christians who would prefer to believe that Christ shared His entire gospel with the masses. He did not. He gave new information as His followers were prepared to understand it. This is why they were to be fed milk before meat. Most of the "meat" is not even discussed in the Bible, as it was restricted to the few who were sufficiently mature to receive it. Jesus never, ever implied that there would be a time when His Church would be able to survive without the organization and authority He personally established.

 

[Booko]

Agreed. Most of them say, but my church, or this website SAYS this so it MUST be true. Are they really that ignorant? How about they go to the offical site and show me.

Ah yes, but the Internet is both a boon and a curse, no?

We can now get infinite amounts of BS much faster than we could in the old days...

 

[kassi]

That's not correct. The website joeboonda posted is clearly an anti-Mormon one. It distorts and misrepresents the beliefs of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The LDS posters on this forum respect joeboonda's right to disagree with our beliefs. What we object to is his having the audacity to post information that does not accurately state what our beliefs are. Does that make sense?

Ok then, if the chart is wrong then please tell who you think Jesus is according to the different things listed in the chart. whether he was a man or a God or God or an angel etc.:bounce

 

[Squirt]

Ok then, if the chart is wrong then please tell who you think Jesus is according to the different things listed in the chart. whether he was a man or a God or God or an angel etc.:bounce

I already did. See my reply (post #67) on page 7 of this thread. I covered every single point joeboonda brought up. If you have any more questions after reading that post, please feel free to ask and I will be happy to respond.

 

[Endless]

Thankfully we are getting somewhere now. Squirt you acknowledge that a reformation of the church took place when people realised that it had fallen in apostasy. You mentioned the names of the people involved in the reformation - many more paid the price with their lives.
Now tell me, what was it in that reformation that they failed to do - in that the church was still in apostasy? Obviously the reformed church must have fallen into apostasy for the Book of Morman to have been given. Now since these reformed churches preached the gospel - the truth of salvation being as a result of what Jesus did. Can you tell me where the reformed church fell into apostasy? Obviously it had to have done otherwise there would have been no need for God to provide the book of Morman. What is the difference between the reformed church and the church of the latterday saints that God sees as being so significant that he would provide the book of Morman?

 

[SoyLeche]

Thankfully we are getting somewhere now. Squirt you acknowledge that a reformation of the church took place when people realised that it had fallen in apostasy. You mentioned the names of the people involved in the reformation - many more paid the price with their lives.
Now tell me, what was it in that reformation that they failed to do - in that the church was still in apostasy? Obviously the reformed church must have fallen into apostasy for the Book of Morman to have been given. Now since these reformed churches preached the gospel - the truth of salvation being as a result of what Jesus did. Can you tell me where the reformed church fell into apostasy? Obviously it had to have done otherwise there would have been no need for God to provide the book of Morman. What is the difference between the reformed church and the church of the latterday saints that God sees as being so significant that he would provide the book of Morman?

The reformed church didn't "fall into apostacy" - they were still in the middle of it. The thing that was missing was authority. The reformers could see the problems with the church in their day, and do their best to correct teachings that had gone astray, but they could not restore the Priesthood. God had to do that, and he did it through Joseph Smith. One of the main purposes of the Book of Mormon, in my opinion, is to show that the cannon is not closed. That God spoke to people outside of the Holy Land in the past, and that he can and does still speak today.

I'm sorry if I was a bit glib about the reformation earlier. I believe that the Renaisance, the Reformation and the Enlightenment were all very important precursers to the Restoration, but mankind can only get so far on their own. God needed to do the rest, and he was waiting until the time and place was right to do it - while preparing that time and place through the Reformation.

 

[Endless]

The reformed church didn't "fall into apostacy" - they were still in the middle of it. The thing that was missing was authority.

If they were in the middle of it, then they were never reformed. If you view the church of the apostacy as 'the church' in the same way the reformed church was 'the church' then i must say that you are mistaken. There is only one true church - the church of the apostacy wasn't the church anymore than the rock concerts were the church. Hence the reformation - they broke away from the church of the apostacy, which still remains today.
So my question is - what is wrong with the reformed church that it did not have 'the authority', what exactly had they got so wrong that they did not have the authority? What changed so much in the church of the latterday Saints that they had the authority? What did the book of Mormanism bring that the reformed church wasn't doing that was vital to salvation and authority?

 

[SoyLeche]

If they were in the middle of it, then they were never reformed. If you view the church of the apostacy as 'the church' in the same way the reformed church was 'the church' then i must say that you are mistaken. There is only one true church - the church of the apostacy wasn't the church anymore than the rock concerts were the church. Hence the reformation - they broke away from the church of the apostacy, which still remains today.
So my question is - what is wrong with the reformed church that it did not have 'the authority', what exactly had they got so wrong that they did not have the authority? What changed so much in the church of the latterday Saints that they had the authority? What did the book of Mormanism bring that the reformed church wasn't doing that was vital to salvation and authority?

All I'm saying is that the Reformation, for all of the good that it did, and all of the good intentions that the reformers had, was insufficient - and the think they were missing was Authority, because that is not something that someone can give themselves. The Reformation was a stepping stone, preparing the world for the Restoration.

 

[SoyLeche]

If they were in the middle of it, then they were never reformed. If you view the church of the apostacy as 'the church' in the same way the reformed church was 'the church' then i must say that you are mistaken. There is only one true church - the church of the apostacy wasn't the church anymore than the rock concerts were the church. Hence the reformation - they broke away from the church of the apostacy, which still remains today.
So my question is - what is wrong with the reformed church that it did not have 'the authority', what exactly had they got so wrong that they did not have the authority? What changed so much in the church of the latterday Saints that they had the authority? What did the book of Mormanism bring that the reformed church wasn't doing that was vital to salvation and authority?

The BoM didn't bring authority. John the Baptist, Peter, James, John and a myriad of others brought the authority.

 

[hanif]

jesus is only prophet.messenger of god.not son of god.

 

[joeboonda]

2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
(King James Bible, 2 Thessalonians)

Hi, I guess we are all very familiar with this passage, Paul is talking to the believers at Thessalonica who are afraid the Day of the Lord had already come. He tells them not to worry, that first there would be a great falling away, then the man of sin, (the antichrist) would be revealed and exalts himself sitting as he were God in the temple of God. This speaks of the Tribulation at the END of days, that just before that, there will be a falling away, an apostasy, even the very elect will be fooled by it. So, it does not say there will be a restoration before Christ's return, but a falling away. I don't find in the NT anything that would declare otherwise but am open to discussion. I feel, imo, that we are and have been moving into this time of apostasy, of false teachers, false religions trying to unite us all into 'one' religion, as will be during the Tribulation with the False Prophet heading that church. Would anyone like to comment on this idea?

 

[Ormiston]

From the looks of America, that 'one' religion is Christianity.