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Who is Jesus?
- Thread starter joeboonda
- Start date
Green Gaia
Veteran Member
I believe that we do. From what I know of LDS doctrine, they believe that we do. So it sounds like the problem is yours.joeboonda said:
Ãanisty
Well-Known Member
Very true. You will probably find that I'm not real shy about my beliefs, so straight forward isn't a problem for me.
I want to clarify, in case it was in question, that I do consider myself a religious person. I simply follow a different religion.
What??? You just said here with this statement that people must always continue to study and investigate except after they have found what they think is the truth. My point is that while you believe you've found the truth, you must still continue to study and investigate or you will not know if you have found the truth or not! You're not agreeing with me at all. If one finds themselves rooted and grounded then they've already failed. Wouldn't you say as much to me if I told you that I'm rooted and grounded in my faith? I feel fairly certain that I know the truth and I am very comfortable in my faith, but that hasn't stopped me from asking questions and trying to understand and accept others. I, for one, have something to learn from every member of this forum. I know for a fact that I don't know everything and that the truth is too vast and complicated for me to claim otherwise.
joeboonda
Well-Known Member
SoyLeche said:
It is a concern of mine, because I really want us to all go to Heaven, and from my youth I have read and studied and been taught certain things about Jesus, from the Bible, and the differences are there between our religions, ever how slight, and I am just concerned thats all.
joeboonda
Well-Known Member
Maize said:
I hope you are right. I know that what I believe is from the Bible and no other source of authority, so I have no problem, but if the Jesus the Bible portrays is not the same as the LDS or whoever's Jesus, then perhaps the concern would be theirs. Like I say, I hope you are right.
Joeboonda,
The following information is not for you, because you (a) will not believe it and (b) will twist it to meet your own perverted agenda. It is for people who might actually be stupid enough to buy into what you have said, good, decent people who dont really know anything about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and who just might be naïve enough to think you have a clue as to what youre talking about. So, as far as Im concerned, you might as well not even read what Im about to say, much less contribute your two cents worth of misinformation to it.
According to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Jesus Christ is the Only Begotten Son of God. He was, from the beginning, with His Father. Under His Fathers direction, He created worlds without number, among them our universe. He was chosen from before the foundation of the world to be the Lamb who would be sacrificed as the means by which we might be redeemed in Gods sight and reconciled to Him. He was the only person ever to have lived who was completely without sin. He taught us, by His example, how to live, love and forgive and then willingly took upon Himself the guilt we had incurred, suffered and died an agonizing and humiliating death that we might be forgiven of our sins. He was raised from the dead and reigns today on the right hand of His Father, acting as our advocate with the Almighty God.
Now, with regards to joeboondas false and/or misleading and/or grossly inadequate interpretations of LDS doctrine (I've posted his in red, just to make it absolutely clear that these are his interpretations of LDS doctrine.)
Jesus is one of many. This is false. Jesus Christ is unique. He is Gods Only Begotten Son, not merely one of many begotten sons. He is not, however, the same individual as His own Father. He was sent by His Father; He did not send Himself. He prayed to His Father; He did not pray to Himself. He was briefly forsaken by His Father; He did not forsake Himself. He referred to His Father as His God; He did not refer to Himself as His own God.
The Bible speaks of gods many and says that God, our Father is Heaven is the God of all of them. Deuteronomy 10:17 describes Him as God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible. But to us, as to Paul, there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things Our belief in God the Eternal Father and in His Son, Jesus Christ can be twisted to mean anything anybody wants it to mean. But it cannot be twisted to mean anything other than what I have just stated and still be our belief.
Jesus is Gods firstborn and was at first a spirit child. That would be entirely correct and entirely Biblical. Romans 8:29 states, For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Jesus Christ is, in fact, the Son of God. That would make Him Gods child. Prior to His incarnation, He was a spirit without flesh and bones. That would make His a spirit child. The fact that He was Gods firstborn, the fact that He was a male child (i.e. Son) of God and the fact that He was a spirit prior to His birth here on earth in no way means that He was not always God. We believe that He has been God for as long as He has existed, which is forever.
Jesus was born to a Virgin but was conceived in the normal way. Now science has never been my strongest subject, but I did manage to get through biology 101 and have been married for quite a few years. Unless I missed something pretty significant along the way, I do not believe that it is possible for a woman to conceive in the normal way and still remain a virgin. Jesus conception was absolutely miraculous. There are no two ways about it. Mary was His literal mother; God was his literal Father. The Holy Ghost came upon Mary to enable this miracle to take place. That is all the scriptures say about the account of Jesus conception and that is what members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believe.
Jesus was married. No kidding? Well perhaps someone ought to inform our prophet of this since he doesnt claim to know one way or another. Neither do the rest of us. If Jesus was married, as is certainly conceivable, would that fact make Him any less divine? Would marriage cause Him to no longer be God? Not in our opinion. I won't speculate as to what joeboonda believes, even though he has refused to extend this same courtesy to us.
The Latter-day Saints dont pray to Jesus. Thats right, we dont. We pray to our Father in Heaven, just as Jesus personally instructed us to in the beautiful prayer we all know as The Lords Prayer. After specifically telling us, After this manner, pray ye, He began, Our Father which art in heaven We do, however, offer our prayers in His name, which is to say that we acknowledge Him as our mediator with the Father.
Jesus has spirit relatives Lucifer, angels and us. Again, the Bible refers to Him as the firstborn among many brethren. It also describes us as Gods own offspring and says that He is the Father of our spirits. Jesus Christ, however, is unique among all of God's children in that He was "God" from the beginning, was perfect from the beginning, was God's Only Begotten Son -- in the flesh -- and was the only one of God's children capable of saving the others from eternal death and separation from God. He was also the one who had the inborn ability to lay down His own life and then take it up again.
Jesus earned His salvation Himself, just as we do. False. Jesus Christ did not need to "earn" anything. As our "Savior," He had no need of "salvation." What a positively stupid statement.
If anyone other than joeboonda has any questions on our beliefs or would like further clarification of our doctrine, please feel free to ask. Joeboonda has demonstrated on countless prior occasions that he has no real desire to get it right. If other Latter-day Saints wish to continue humoring him, thats fine with me. Personally, I have better things to do than to try to penetrate his closed mind.
The following information is not for you, because you (a) will not believe it and (b) will twist it to meet your own perverted agenda. It is for people who might actually be stupid enough to buy into what you have said, good, decent people who dont really know anything about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and who just might be naïve enough to think you have a clue as to what youre talking about. So, as far as Im concerned, you might as well not even read what Im about to say, much less contribute your two cents worth of misinformation to it.
According to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Jesus Christ is the Only Begotten Son of God. He was, from the beginning, with His Father. Under His Fathers direction, He created worlds without number, among them our universe. He was chosen from before the foundation of the world to be the Lamb who would be sacrificed as the means by which we might be redeemed in Gods sight and reconciled to Him. He was the only person ever to have lived who was completely without sin. He taught us, by His example, how to live, love and forgive and then willingly took upon Himself the guilt we had incurred, suffered and died an agonizing and humiliating death that we might be forgiven of our sins. He was raised from the dead and reigns today on the right hand of His Father, acting as our advocate with the Almighty God.
Now, with regards to joeboondas false and/or misleading and/or grossly inadequate interpretations of LDS doctrine (I've posted his in red, just to make it absolutely clear that these are his interpretations of LDS doctrine.)
Jesus is one of many. This is false. Jesus Christ is unique. He is Gods Only Begotten Son, not merely one of many begotten sons. He is not, however, the same individual as His own Father. He was sent by His Father; He did not send Himself. He prayed to His Father; He did not pray to Himself. He was briefly forsaken by His Father; He did not forsake Himself. He referred to His Father as His God; He did not refer to Himself as His own God.
The Bible speaks of gods many and says that God, our Father is Heaven is the God of all of them. Deuteronomy 10:17 describes Him as God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible. But to us, as to Paul, there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things Our belief in God the Eternal Father and in His Son, Jesus Christ can be twisted to mean anything anybody wants it to mean. But it cannot be twisted to mean anything other than what I have just stated and still be our belief.
Jesus is Gods firstborn and was at first a spirit child. That would be entirely correct and entirely Biblical. Romans 8:29 states, For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Jesus Christ is, in fact, the Son of God. That would make Him Gods child. Prior to His incarnation, He was a spirit without flesh and bones. That would make His a spirit child. The fact that He was Gods firstborn, the fact that He was a male child (i.e. Son) of God and the fact that He was a spirit prior to His birth here on earth in no way means that He was not always God. We believe that He has been God for as long as He has existed, which is forever.
Jesus was born to a Virgin but was conceived in the normal way. Now science has never been my strongest subject, but I did manage to get through biology 101 and have been married for quite a few years. Unless I missed something pretty significant along the way, I do not believe that it is possible for a woman to conceive in the normal way and still remain a virgin. Jesus conception was absolutely miraculous. There are no two ways about it. Mary was His literal mother; God was his literal Father. The Holy Ghost came upon Mary to enable this miracle to take place. That is all the scriptures say about the account of Jesus conception and that is what members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believe.
Jesus was married. No kidding? Well perhaps someone ought to inform our prophet of this since he doesnt claim to know one way or another. Neither do the rest of us. If Jesus was married, as is certainly conceivable, would that fact make Him any less divine? Would marriage cause Him to no longer be God? Not in our opinion. I won't speculate as to what joeboonda believes, even though he has refused to extend this same courtesy to us.
The Latter-day Saints dont pray to Jesus. Thats right, we dont. We pray to our Father in Heaven, just as Jesus personally instructed us to in the beautiful prayer we all know as The Lords Prayer. After specifically telling us, After this manner, pray ye, He began, Our Father which art in heaven We do, however, offer our prayers in His name, which is to say that we acknowledge Him as our mediator with the Father.
Jesus has spirit relatives Lucifer, angels and us. Again, the Bible refers to Him as the firstborn among many brethren. It also describes us as Gods own offspring and says that He is the Father of our spirits. Jesus Christ, however, is unique among all of God's children in that He was "God" from the beginning, was perfect from the beginning, was God's Only Begotten Son -- in the flesh -- and was the only one of God's children capable of saving the others from eternal death and separation from God. He was also the one who had the inborn ability to lay down His own life and then take it up again.
Jesus earned His salvation Himself, just as we do. False. Jesus Christ did not need to "earn" anything. As our "Savior," He had no need of "salvation." What a positively stupid statement.
If anyone other than joeboonda has any questions on our beliefs or would like further clarification of our doctrine, please feel free to ask. Joeboonda has demonstrated on countless prior occasions that he has no real desire to get it right. If other Latter-day Saints wish to continue humoring him, thats fine with me. Personally, I have better things to do than to try to penetrate his closed mind.
No, wait a minute... That would be Hell.
Green Gaia
Veteran Member
joeboonda said:
So you're just trying to show the LDS and the rest of us who don't believe the same way you do about Jesus the errors of our beliefs and convert us to your way of thinking? Why don't you focus on the Buddhists, or the Hindus, or even us Unitarian Universalists? Why is it you always seem to be trying to undermine LDS beliefs? I mean, the chart you linked to is even on an anti-LDS website.
Green Gaia
Veteran Member
joeboonda said:
Good for you! I'm glad you're happy with the truth you've found. But others have found other truths and different ways.
Do not think we are all so naive as to believe that 'Mormanism is in agreement with the Bible' is the same as Mormanism teaches 'everything the Bible teaches'. It clearly does not for if it did then you would have no need for the Book of Morman would you?
So rather than portray that the book of Morman teaches exactly what the Bible teaches, show us why you choose the book of Morman and the Bible - rather than just the Bible. Because as sure as anything you aren't saying that the people who lived their lives by the Bible (long before the book of Morman) didn't get saved from their sin. Neither are you saying that the Bible is wrong when it tells of the early church and how many people were being saved. So this being the case - what exactly is it about the book of Morman that is so essential that you have to have it with the Bible? Rather than just the Bible which so many people have been saved through? If the book of Morman doesn't provide anything extra that you need to be saved - then what is the point of the book of Morman?
Does the book of Morman comment on the church that follows just the Bible? Does Morman doctrine comment on the 'Christian church' following just the Bible? I'd be interested to know what you have been taught about other churches - i mean is it fine for you to be a member of a church following just the Bible and not the book of Morman and still call yourself a Morman and be accepted by the Mormans?
So rather than portray that the book of Morman teaches exactly what the Bible teaches, show us why you choose the book of Morman and the Bible - rather than just the Bible. Because as sure as anything you aren't saying that the people who lived their lives by the Bible (long before the book of Morman) didn't get saved from their sin. Neither are you saying that the Bible is wrong when it tells of the early church and how many people were being saved. So this being the case - what exactly is it about the book of Morman that is so essential that you have to have it with the Bible? Rather than just the Bible which so many people have been saved through? If the book of Morman doesn't provide anything extra that you need to be saved - then what is the point of the book of Morman?
Does the book of Morman comment on the church that follows just the Bible? Does Morman doctrine comment on the 'Christian church' following just the Bible? I'd be interested to know what you have been taught about other churches - i mean is it fine for you to be a member of a church following just the Bible and not the book of Morman and still call yourself a Morman and be accepted by the Mormans?
Green Gaia
Veteran Member
Endless said:
That is not the topic of this discussion. I'm sure if you look back through the debates you'll find a number of related topics discussing Mormonism. Thank you.
joeboonda
Well-Known Member
I read it, sorry.
I agree
I can agree, however, do you believe there are many gods out there or not?
I don't agree with this, I believe Jesus is God and is from everlasting, that he was never a spirit child. Perhaps we can discuss this sometime.
Glad you believe that, as I have read otherwise.
Good, I don't believe Jesus was ever married, another discussable point.
Okay, well we differ here, we pray to Jesus, like Stephen did when he was stoned, and as is mentioned elsewhere in the NT. But we pray to God through Jesus too, and that is all good.
I don't believe Lucifer is Jesus' spirit brother, when it says He is the firstborn among many brethren, it is referring to the ressurrection in the context. I believe Lucifer was an angel which are created beings. We do become adopted, as God's children, when we are saved, and I believe Jesus was God from the beginning along with the Father and Holy Spirit.
Whether it is in the main statements of faith or not, it has been taught that God was once a man and worked his way to Godhood, thus earning His salvation, this is where the idea comes from, and I agree Jesus has always been God and always been sinless.
Sorry to hear that, I enjoy discussing our different beliefs and reading the great defenses of all sides. And sorry everything turned red, I am not good at this bubbles thing, sorry!
Who Jesus was/is is central to salvation - taught by the Bible that is. The point is simply that if Mormanism did teach Jesus to be everything the Bible teaches, then on this key issue, what is the point of Mormanism? It profits a man absolutely nothing since the Bible already explains how to be saved, because of who Jesus was and what he accomplished as a result.
Therefore - in order for someone to adhere to the Book of Mormanism, it must offer them some other explanation of who Jesus was, than the Bible did, or what Jesus accomplished as a direct result of who he was. If it did not, then there is no point in having the book of Mormanism - it profits a man absolutely nothing, for a man already knows everything he needs to know about Jesus from the Bible.
That is the only point i'm getting across. Who Jesus was is central to salvation - he was the atoning sacrifice, God and the author of our faith.
Therefore - in order for someone to adhere to the Book of Mormanism, it must offer them some other explanation of who Jesus was, than the Bible did, or what Jesus accomplished as a direct result of who he was. If it did not, then there is no point in having the book of Mormanism - it profits a man absolutely nothing, for a man already knows everything he needs to know about Jesus from the Bible.
That is the only point i'm getting across. Who Jesus was is central to salvation - he was the atoning sacrifice, God and the author of our faith.