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Who is Jesus to Non-Christians?

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
Running off a series of dialogues with those in different faiths, I want to ask a very fundamental question. Who is Jesus to those who don't believe in Him as the Son of God or Messiah as written in parts of the Bible? How does Jesus influence you whether or not he is a main figure in your beliefs? Does your religion pull from some of His doctrines and if so you don't mind sharing what? As Christians consider Him with reverence, please show reverence as well, but I would like to get to know the differing opinions of this inter-faith figure known as Jesus the Christ. Here is an example of a Rabbi finding connections with his faith and Christianity, just to see an example of what I am asking

Jesus is totally irrevelant to my beliefs and worldview. His teachings and actions are often totally at odds with my views. Most people who practice Germanic polytheism these days tend to have a negative view of Christianity. Pre-Christian Germanic people ridiculed Jesus as a coward.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Jesus praised Abraham, known to have been a reasonably wealthy man. He commended the faith of the centurion, but did not require him to stop working. He told Nicodemus that rebirth by water and the spirit was what was required for salvation. Mentioned nothing about what to do with money.
I'm familiar with the mental gymnastics that Christians go through to try to simultaneously that every word of Jesus's in the Bible is the inerrant word of God while also trying to justify a comfortable - sometimes very comfortable - life for themselves. Still, the fact that every time Jesus deals with the issue of wealth directly in the Gospels, he's opposed to it.

But hardly anyone, not even you I think, would think he was teaching against valuing your parents or against establishing families.
I would, actually.

... though the one who was really against establishing families was Paul, who argued that anyone who could manage it should stay celibate.

IMO, the Christian group that came closest to putting Gospel teaching into practice is the Shakers (or certain monastic orders): no personal property, everyone lived very modestly, and no sex, so no families... they relied on converts to maintain their numbers.
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
His main thing wasn't that you shouldn't have any earthly possession. But rather that you should not place your heart in them

I beg to differ.

Your interpretation is certainly more soothing to the conscience but I don't believe it is exegetically correct.

If I may quote an Eastern Orthodox theologian and New Testament translator:


"...When one truly ventures into the world of the first Christians, one enters a company of “radicals” (for want of a better word), an association of men and women guided by faith in a world-altering revelation, and hence in values almost absolutely inverse to the recognized social, political, economic, and religious truths not only of their own age, but of almost every age of human culture. The first Christians certainly bore very little resemblance to the faithful of our day...

Most of us would find Christians truly cast in the New Testament mold fairly obnoxious: civically reprobate, ideologically unsound, economically destructive, politically irresponsible, socially discreditable, and really just a bit indecent.

On the matter of wealth, for instance, we take it as given that, while the New Testament enjoins generosity to the poor, it otherwise allows the wealthy to enjoy the fruits of their industry or fair fortune with a clean conscience...[However] the New Testament, alarmingly enough, condemns personal wealth not merely as a moral danger, but as an intrinsic evil. Actually, the biblical texts are so unambiguous on this matter that it requires an almost heroic defiance of the obvious to fail to grasp their import...The early Christians were (in the strictly technical sense) communists, as the book of Acts quite explicitly states...

Thus we are told the first converts in Jerusalem after the resurrection, as the price of becoming Christians, sold all their property and possessions and distributed the proceeds to those in need, and then fed themselves by sharing their resources in common meals (Acts 2:43–46). Barnabas, on becoming a Christian, sold his field and handed over all the money to the Apostles (Acts 4:35)—though Ananias and Sapphira did not follow suit, with somewhat unfortunate consequences. To be a follower of “The Way” was to renounce every claim to private property and to consent to communal ownership of everything (Acts 4:32)
..."

- David Bentley Hart (Eastern Orthodox theologian), The New Testament: A Translation (Yale, 2017) p.20
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I'm curious about the violent episodes - which ones? (I do agree with him being occasionally 'erratic' though - i.e. doing something that doesn't fit the frame apologetical narrative that the gospel writer was aiming for.)

All I can think about for violence is the Temple incident (which was, basically, a symbolic economic protest with an eschatological motive, as opposed to an instance of someone taking an aggressive maddie - only the last written gospel, John, mentions a whip), that weird cursing of the fig tree scene....(I admit, its truly bizarre) which concerned a 'tree', not a person and was again eschatologically motivated (i.e. he used it as a teaching lesson) and the exorcism involving the swine.
Those are the two that came to mind where he inflicts violence himself.

I was also thinking of the violent ideation he expresses in several of his sermons, where he seems to revel in the future violence he expects God to inflict on various categories of people.
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
I was also thinking of the violent ideation he expresses in several of his sermons, where he seems to revel in the future violence he expects God to inflict on various categories of people.

The counter to that, of course, would be episodes such as the following where Jesus upbraids his disciples for calling for divine wrath upon those who refused to receive his message:


Luke 9:52-55

"He sent messengers on ahead, who went into a village of the Samaritans to make arrangements for Him. But the people there refused to welcome Him, because He was heading for Jerusalem. When the disciples James and John saw this, they asked, “Lord, do You want us to call down fire from heaven to consume them?”

But Jesus turned and rebuked them, and He said, "You do not know what kind of spirit you are of. For the Son of Man did not come to destroy the lives of men, but to save them." And they went on to another village


The majority of his fiery idioms occur in the context of parables - such as the fish and nets, or the parable of the Tares. These are stories, the images of which are not meant to be taken literally - the parable of the dough is not actually about a woman baking bread, rather this is just a frame story for the message about the slow growth of the kingdom of God on earth. When it actually 'comes' to it, he's invariably always shown dissuading people from acting violently.

You also have the monologues directed against Tyre and Sidon but again that is very much stylistic and very tame compared with the parables (all he says in these is, "it will be more tolerable on the day of judgement for Sodom than you", which is again oratorical and doesn't even use the imagery of fire that you find in the more strictly apocalyptic stuff).

Its imitating the oral delivery of the Nevi'im prophets of the Tanakh and appears more to me to be a case of the gospel writers buttressing his credentials as a true spokesperson for God. The Jewish prophets spoke this way, using startling and often biting imagery and characterizations designed to elicit a response of penitence from the reader of the prophecy. It was a form of rhetoric.

The gospel writers are clearly reliant on the standard apocalyptic imagery of all contemporary works of a like genre (i.e. the Book of Enoch, Apocalypse of 4 Ezra, the Apocalypse of Moses etc. etc.). And it is very much imagery - unless you really wish to take the Book of Revelation at face value when its talking about bowls of wrath involving a flaming red dragon and multi-headed monsters. Its a genre.

Given that his praxis involved no violence actually directed against other people, in the form of any episode involving bloodshed, and the overarching character of his actual (non-parabolic) moral orations virtually always condemns actual forcible resistance or violence, I think its difficult to read too much into semantics - especially when the 'violence' in question is actually in the context of future eschatological events conducted by God, rather than people.

I think it is perfectly fair to say that he isn't shown as approving of violence against other humans and that this is one of his most consistent attributions across the New Testament, not just in the gospels.

But did he believe in divine vengeance on judgement day like most Jews of his time? Its plausible to read some of his statements that way, yeah. But divine agency to an ancient mind is not the same as human agency, certainly not in the worldview he relied upon as a Second Temple apocalyptic Jew.

I'd say that's more of a theological issue one might have with his kind of monotheism, as opposed to evidence of any violent tendencies in his actual message for how his disciples are to act in the here-and-now.
 
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Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
Who is Jesus to those who don't believe in Him as the Son of God or Messiah as written in parts of the Bible?
As a person, I find him interesting, simply for there not existing a clear, objective description of who he was. The NT describes him in one way, with some of his origins being disputed by different gospels, but all display him as inherently good, that one perfect individual, while the Talmud mentions several different people called "Yeshu" but it is unclear whether any of them actually describe that same Jesus the Nazarene, and even if they do, they are clearly meant to make him out as inherently evil.

As a concept, a representation and/or originator of an idea or a number of ideas, he may have not actually done much in this world, but what he did do had countless tragic ramifications for his (former?) people and still does. Further, the Christian-rooted western society that developed from his supposed teachings probably influence all westerners in some way or another.
 

Thanda

Well-Known Member
I beg to differ.

Your interpretation is certainly more soothing to the conscience but I don't believe it is exegetically correct.

If I may quote an Eastern Orthodox theologian and New Testament translator:


"...When one truly ventures into the world of the first Christians, one enters a company of “radicals” (for want of a better word), an association of men and women guided by faith in a world-altering revelation, and hence in values almost absolutely inverse to the recognized social, political, economic, and religious truths not only of their own age, but of almost every age of human culture. The first Christians certainly bore very little resemblance to the faithful of our day...

Most of us would find Christians truly cast in the New Testament mold fairly obnoxious: civically reprobate, ideologically unsound, economically destructive, politically irresponsible, socially discreditable, and really just a bit indecent.

On the matter of wealth, for instance, we take it as given that, while the New Testament enjoins generosity to the poor, it otherwise allows the wealthy to enjoy the fruits of their industry or fair fortune with a clean conscience...[However] the New Testament, alarmingly enough, condemns personal wealth not merely as a moral danger, but as an intrinsic evil. Actually, the biblical texts are so unambiguous on this matter that it requires an almost heroic defiance of the obvious to fail to grasp their import...The early Christians were (in the strictly technical sense) communists, as the book of Acts quite explicitly states...

Thus we are told the first converts in Jerusalem after the resurrection, as the price of becoming Christians, sold all their property and possessions and distributed the proceeds to those in need, and then fed themselves by sharing their resources in common meals (Acts 2:43–46). Barnabas, on becoming a Christian, sold his field and handed over all the money to the Apostles (Acts 4:35)—though Ananias and Sapphira did not follow suit, with somewhat unfortunate consequences. To be a follower of “The Way” was to renounce every claim to private property and to consent to communal ownership of everything (Acts 4:32)
..."

- David Bentley Hart (Eastern Orthodox theologian), The New Testament: A Translation (Yale, 2017) p.20

Wealth and earthly possessions are two very different things. You need earthly possessions to live and to raise and maintain a family. Wealth on the other hand is normally acquired by being indifferent to the plight of the poor, even by exploiting them.

Jesus also shares the parable of the wealthy man who accumulates wealth and then is told that he would die that day. He had spent all his life worrying about his wealth and ensuring he had enough for many lifetimes only to find that his life would be required of him that day.

Jesus goes onto say that laying up treasure for yourself while you're not rich towards God (not spiritually rich) is pointless. Which goes along with the saying, "For what shall it profit a man if he gains the whole world and lose his soul".

In all these saying Jesus is not saying having property is itself a sin. But rather he says that if your spend your precious limited time gathering to yourself more wealth than you actually need for you and your families maintenance, especially when that comes at the expense of developing and maintaining a relationship with God, you are wasting your time.

You bring up a good point around the communal form of ownership property practiced by early Christians. Note that communal owner of property is just another form of ownership. At the end of the day the earthly things required for surviving and even living comfortably are not excluded. But of importance is that all those who enter the faith together become equal in all things. If one is comfortable all must be comfortable. If one starves all must starve. If one prospers, all prosper. Indeed the Zion that was expected was characterised by great prosperity.

So no, I don't quite agree that Jesus himself actually had a hatred for material possessions. As I said to another, his message was consistent with many other religious teachers that we should not be trapped by the pursuit of material wealth to the detriment of our spiritual health
 
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Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
His popularity continues baffling me, considering he didn't actually do anything! He was likely one of the biggest failures there ever was.


"We all die. The goal isn't to live forever, the goal is to create something that will." -Chuck Palahnuik

Well.... so deeply impressing himself upon his followers that they experienced severe cognitive dissonance after his death - to such an extent that they came to believe he'd actually conquered the grave, ascended into heaven and revealed himself as a pre-existent divine being, motivating them to go on (after convincing a linguistically and intellectually gifted Pharisee called Paul that this story was true) to risk life and limb to disseminate his message to the four corners of the Roman Empire, sounds pretty successful if you ask me.

The only comparable example in history I can think of is the Chabad Rebbe Lubavitcher, whose followers in recent times after his death in the 1990s did something similar.

How many other people can legit say they've provoked a response in other people like that? Some of the most revered individuals in history only became truly famous and appreciated posthumously:

Gregor Mendel, who basically discovered genetics back in 1865... nobody took him seriously until 1915, some 30 years after his death in 1884.

Vincent Van Gogh - often referred to as 'the misunderstood genius' - was in life an utterly unappreciated artist who died in 1890 and could sell only 1 painting during his lifetime. Today his unrivalled art is a legacy and is priced in millions.

But I do agree with you to an extent: by the standards of his time and culture, Jesus was a failure.

Something to bear in mind about ancient Roman and Jewish understandings of death:


The condition of human life is chiefly determined by its first and last days, because it is of the greatest importance under what auspices it is begun and with what end it is terminated.’

- Valerius Maximus (Memorable Doings and Sayings (“On Deaths out of the Ordinary”) 9.12 praef. LCL 493, trans. D. R. Shackleton Bailey)


A person’s birth and death were felt to be an indication of his or her true character.

On both accounts, his birth and death, Jesus 'failed' the test - and very badly - of true Roman manhood and heroism: he was born of peasants in Nazareth (a backwater derided even by Judean Jews "Can anything good come out of Nazareth?” (John 1:43)) and died the most ignoble torture-death. Cicero described crucifixion as ‘the greatest punishment of slavery’ (Verr. 2.5), while Josephus labelled it ‘the most pitiable of deaths’ (War 7.203).

Jesus's "true" character, then, in the eyes of Romans would have been as a piteous 'slave' and insurrectionist against the empire, abandoned by even his closest followers and left to endure the mockery of the crowds as he hung there naked and asphyxiated with a mock crown of thorns on his head.

As Professor Helen K. Bond, an expert on this period, has noted:


"Crucifixion was the most shameful, brutal and degrading form of capital punishment known to the ancient world, reserved for slaves, brigands and any who set themselves up against imperial rule.

There is no getting away from the fact that Mark’s account, particularly in the crucifixion scene, is the very opposite of a “good death”: Jesus dies alone, in agonized torment, with no one to perform even the most basic rites. As Adela Collins puts it, Jesus’ death in Mark is “anguished, human, and realistic.”"

(see also, J. G. Cook, Crucifixion in the Mediterranean World (Tübingen: Mohr Siebeck, 2014).


But this is, paradoxically, what has made his tragic story so moving and powerful for so many people.

If I might quote Professor Bond again:


"...Jesus’ crucifixion was an attempt by the rulers of his day to consign not only his body but also his memory to oblivion. In many ways, Mark’s bios can be seen as an act of defiance, a refusal to accept the Roman sentence and an attempt to shape the way in which both his life and death should be remembered.

His work takes the place of a funeral ovation, outlining Jesus’ way of life and pointing to the family of believers who succeed him.

While men of higher class and greater worldly distinction might have had their epitaphs set in stone, Mark provides his hero with a written monument to a truly worthy life. Mark redeems Jesus’ death not by casting it as ‘noble’ or conventionally ‘honourable,’ but by showing that it conforms perfectly to his counter-cultural teaching
..."

(Bond, H 2018, 'A fitting end? Self-denial and a slave’s death in Mark’s life of Jesus' New Testament Studies)


The Romans 'failed': his memory and words did not die with Him. They both lived on, and are still living today, because a small group of people continued to believe in him and love him above everything basically and were determined to give as an epitaph on paper what he had been denied in stone. And it worked - 2,000 years later, billions of people are still worshipping this guy.

If you think about it @Rival Jesus died how he had lived and preached.

His preaching in life had been: "the least among all of you is the greatest" (Luke 9:48):


25 But Jesus called them to Himself and said, “You know that among the nations, those who appear to be their kings lord it over them, and their 'great' men are tyrants over them. 26 But it shall not be this way among you, rather whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant, 27and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be your slave; 28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.” (Matthew 20:25-28)​


And he died the 'least' among all, at the hands of the kind of tyrannical rulers he so inveighed against (Pilate and Caesar) as examples not to imitate in their exploitation of the weak.

The English historian Tom Holland wrote an excellent article about this very thing on Good Friday this year:


When Christ conquered Caesar - UnHerd


The utter strangeness of Easter does not lie in the notion that a mortal might become divine. As Nero well knew, the border between the heavenly and the earthly had always been viewed as permeable. Divinity in the Roman world, however, was understood to be for the very greatest of the great: for victors, and heroes, and Caesars. Its measure was the power to torture one’s enemies, not to suffer it oneself; to have a person stabbed in the womb, or gelded and made to live forever as a member of the opposite sex, or smeared in pitch and set to serve as a human torch.

That a man who had himself been crucified might be hailed as a god could not help but be seen by people everywhere across the Roman world as scandalous, obscene, grotesque. Nero, charging the Christians with arson and hatred of humanity, seems not to have undertaken any detailed interrogation of their beliefs — but doubtless, had he done so, he would have been revolted and bewildered.

Radically though Nero had sought to demonstrate to the world that the divine might be interfused with the human, the Christians he had tortured to death believed in something infinitely more radical. There was but the one God, and His Son, by becoming mortal and dying the death of a slave, had redeemed all of humanity. Not as an emperor but as a victim he had come. The message was novel beyond the wildest dreams even of a Nero; and was destined to endure long after all his works, and the works of the Caesars, had crumbled into dust.

This Sunday, when billions of people around the globe celebrate the triumph over death of a man laid in a tomb in a garden, the triumph they celebrate will not be that of an emperor. “For God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong" (1 Corinthians 1:7).
 
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Thanda

Well-Known Member
I'm familiar with the mental gymnastics that Christians go through to try to simultaneously that every word of Jesus's in the Bible is the inerrant word of God while also trying to justify a comfortable - sometimes very comfortable - life for themselves. Still, the fact that every time Jesus deals with the issue of wealth directly in the Gospels, he's opposed to it.

You have cleverly inserted wealth into a discussion about having enough worldly possessions to live comfortably. As I mentioned in another post to Vouthon , wealth and the worldly possessions required to live and comfortably raise a family are two very different things. For example Jesus himself, while coming from the lower classes of Jewish society appears to have been raised in a family that had enough material possession and income to maintain himself and quite a few other siblings. But he certainly was not wealthy by any definition.

So I will not allow that strawman to divert us from our original conversation. You asserted that as far as Jesus is concerned anything more than the clothes on your back and a begging bowl is sin. I contended that such utterances were reserved for those who were part of his traveling party who would be unable to maintain a steady job and would have to leave their possessions behind, trusting in God for all their provisions, just as he was doing.

You have yet to refute this claim.

I would, actually.

And you would be very mistaken. Jesus affirmed the sanctity of the family and marriage multiple times over his ministry. When addressing the young ruler who asked what would be required of him to gain eternal life Jesus lists, among other things, the commandment to "Honour they father and thy mother" - Matt 19:19

As it happens in the self-same chapter Jesus affirms the sanctity of marriage with the following when asked about divorce:
4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,

5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?

6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

7 They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away?

8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.

9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

Note that the only condition where he allows divorce is if a there has been adultery. So somebody accepting Jesus' message is not expected to abandon his wife and family.

Note in bold that he affirms that a marriage should be for life.
Then again in the same chapter he speaks about abstinence
10 ¶ His disciples say unto him, If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry.

11 But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given.

12 For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother’s womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven’s sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.

Note here that he declines to say whether it is good or not to marry. Instead he says that there are some to whom it is given or expected to become celibate for the kingdoms sake.

Then since we are so lucky we can continue in the same chapter to hear his views on children
13 ¶ Then were there brought unto him little children, that he should put his hands on them, and pray: and the disciples rebuked them.

14 But Jesus said, Suffer little bchildren, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

15 And he laid his hands on them, and departed thence.
Now after defending the sanctity of marraige and declaring that celibacy is required only of some, he goes on to extol the intrinsic virtue of little children.

I have been lucky not to have to go too far to show that Jesus' message was not about the abolition of the family. And so I get back again to the point I was making that Jesus saying one must hate his father and mother is not a preaching against valuing one's family or against establishing a family but rather against valuing family and your relationship with them more than your relationship with God.

And that ultimately gets me back to the fact that his apparent teachings against property and even to some extent wealth, must be understood in the same context - that they are not evil in and of themselves but rather a caution against the danger of prizing them above your relationship with God.
 
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Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Galilee... I wonder how many messiahs were concentrated in and around Galilee... maybe something in that community was fanning the flames of young messianic hopefuls.
That happens when a society is not free. The Jews chafed under the subjugation of Romans. That creates these messianic fantasies. But it could also be personal ambitions of power over a group.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
That happens when a society is not free. The Jews chafed under the subjugation of Romans. That creates these messianic fantasies. But it could also be personal ambitions of power over a group.
That particular area is rather interesting. I'm just starting to research it, though.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Just so you know, Rabbi Riskin is very controversial.

Here is my own personal opinion. Jesus was a Jew. He practiced second temple Judaism. YOu can divide his doctrines into two basic groups: what he said about himself (son of man, one with the Father, etc) and what he said about how to live.

As far as what he taught about himself, I think he came to believe he was the messiah and had to die. It was not true, since he didn't fulfill the prophecies regarding the Messiah. Basically all his claims regarding himself were untrue, and my guess is that they were exaggerated by the authors of the gospels -- that many words were put into his mouth that never came from him. I do not, for example, believe he ever claimed to be God.

As for his general teachings, I believe he was a Pharisee of the school of Hillel, (with the exception of his teachings on divorce). There were issues of halakhah that were not yet set, and Jesus participated in arguments with other Pharisees as to the correct interpretation. This is ordinary Jewish behavior. It is not some rebellious spirit trying to start a new religion. His primary purpose was to enable people to follow Torah -- "until heaven and earth pass away, not one brushstroke will pass away from the Law."

So, not God, not Messiah, not prophet. A very nice Jewish man.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Yeah, it was a combination of two things. 1. The Roman rule, and 2. The belief in "One God'. Other people who were ruled by others (Indians, for example), did not have that condition.
Though we have just as many claimants of divinity, but they all are for personal power and influence.
So, not God, not Messiah, not prophet. A very nice Jewish man.
Transformed into something entirely different after his death by Paul & Co.
 
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Tumah

Veteran Member
Undoubtedly, the movement Jesus created did - ultimately - result in millions of polytheist Romans believing in the divine revelation of the Torah and the mitzvots̶, as well as billions of people from across the world in subsequent centuries. Islam, whilst not disseminating the actual scriptures of the Hebrew Bible in the same way as Christianity, can be said to have done something similar for the concept of unitarian monotheism ("There is no god but God"). Combined, you have some 3 billion or more persons - Christians and Muslims - who either reverence the Hebrew Bible as divine writ (Christians) or worship a single unitarian Creator whom they regard to be the God of Abraham (Muslims).
That was almost exactly Maimonides' point.
 

N K Tawakley

Understanding Sanatan Dharma
As a Christian I find it rather amusing that so many believe that Jesus was an historical figure, because we really have no way of knowing that. Christianity is about the message in a story that needn't have taken place at all, we don't all read The Bible literally.

Jesus is definitely there in history. One of ancient Indian texts Bhavishya Puran also has mention of Jesus Christ as well as Mahamad. The chapters on some of Indian ancient kings having met them. If you can read Hindi, I am attaching a file.
 

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Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Jesus is definitely there in history. One of ancient Indian texts Bhavishya Puran also has mention of Jesus Christ as well as Mahamad. The chapters on some of Indian ancient kings having met them. If you can read Hindi, I am attaching a file.
Mr. Tawakley, that portion of Bhavishya Purana is BS (though the other portions are old).

"The Bhavishya Purana is one of the eighteen major works in the Purana genre of Hinduism. The title Bhavishya means "future" and implies it is a work that contains prophecies regarding the future, however, the "prophecy" parts of the extant manuscripts are a modern era addition and hence not an integral part of the Bhavishya Purana. Those sections of the surviving manuscripts that are dated to be older, are partly borrowed from other Indian texts such as Brihat Samhita and Shamba Purana. The veracity and authenticity of much of the Bhavishya Purana has been questioned by modern scholars and historians, and the text is considered an example of "constant revisions and living nature" of Puranic genre of Hindu literature."
Bhavishya Purana - Wikipedia
 

Thanda

Well-Known Member
The real clinchers, though, in terms of historicity, are his bitter feuds with his family - in a very kinship-based culture, with both Jews and Romans extolling obedience to and care for parents and a strong tribal mentality, his absolutely appalling relations with his mother and brothers are just not likely to have been made up. It shows him as being all too human and flawed.


I would like to hear more on your thoughts around his relations with his family. My interpretation is that Jesus was very careful, from an early age to do what psychologists call "setting boundaries and expectations". The narrative of the gospels is that Jesus came to do his father's will or God's work. He claims he is sent by God and in John that he actually has some very direct communication with God. "My meat is to do the will of him that sent me and to finish his work".

Could it be then that his curt responses to his family were his way of making sure they understood that he was not going to bend to their will but would chart his own path as it was being or had been revealed to him?

Entrepreneurs for example often find themselves having to dismiss family members who expect them to live a "normal life" who do not believe in their vision.

This is how I've come to view Jesus' forthright utterances to people. At one point he says to Peter "get behind me Satan", when Peter suggests he won't actually be killed (Matt 16:21-23). Again being very abrupt with someone getting in the way of what he sees as his divine mission.

And if we accept this interpretation, can we call that a character flaw? Or is it the very essence of strong character to set clear boundaries for those around who, even out of ignorance, may seek to impede you from fulfilling your purpose
 
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Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
Running off a series of dialogues with those in different faiths, I want to ask a very fundamental question. Who is Jesus to those who don't believe in Him as the Son of God or Messiah as written in parts of the Bible? How does Jesus influence you whether or not he is a main figure in your beliefs? Does your religion pull from some of His doctrines and if so you don't mind sharing what? As Christians consider Him with reverence, please show reverence as well, but I would like to get to know the differing opinions of this inter-faith figure known as Jesus the Christ. Here is an example of a Rabbi finding connections with his faith and Christianity, just to see an example of what I am asking


Just to ignore most of your post and address the tag line at the top of the post.....to non-Christians...Jesus is either a myth, or just another iterate Rabbi. Beyond that, nothing special.
 
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