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Featured Who is "James?"

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by Soul, Jun 25, 2021.

  1. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    You are free to believe whatever you wish...I have presented my argument and have no interest on proving anything to someone who doesn't want to know....but you can never say that no one told you.

    I don't worship/venerate Mary and have no interest in believing what the Catholic church says about Jesus' half siblings or anything else quite frankly. You can juggle the scriptures all you like....Mary was not "ever virgin". There is no reason to believe she had to be outside of Catholicism's elevation of her as some kind of goddess. She is barely mentioned by Jesus or the apostles.

    Have a happy life....
     
  2. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    Who would have known that the Association of Jesuit Colleges and Universities is nothing but a front for an insidious Catholic bingo fraternity.
     
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  3. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    It depends which gospel. The first gospel written is Mark, and in Mark Jesus is just an ordinary Jew from a Jewish family, his mother was not a virgin when she conceived him, there were no annunciations before his birth, and he wasn't the son of God until his baptism and adoption by God on the model that God adopted David in Psalm 2:7.

    So Mark's Jesus is perfectly at liberty to have full-blood brothers and sisters.

    (And Mark's is the only Jesus that isn't said to be descended from David, though of course the claim for the Jesuses of Matthew and Luke to be so descended are silly since their Jesuses are literal sons of God and have God's Y-chromosome ─ unless of course God is descended from David, though I don't find that mentioned anywhere.)
     
  4. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    I know, right?
    Theological institutions teach theology, not the Bible. These places turn out theologians...not Christians.

    If your teachers are schooled in false ideas, what is going to be passed on to their flocks? This is true no matter what “religion” we subscribe to......isn’t it?

    We have to choose what appeals to our own hearts. If we love the lies, what is there left to say? Isn’t it God who guides us to the truth? If we want to stick with stuff that isn’t true, will he bother? :shrug:
     
  5. Soul

    Soul Member

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    See below.
    These posts are not by "someone who doesn't want to know," and clearly you have no interest in addressing them.

    I have not quoted the Catechism, rather scriptural verses, as well as testimonials of prominent early Christians, that illustrate those in Mt. 13:55/Mk.6:3 and Ga. 1:19 were Jesus's brother(s), as in "kin," specifically, cousin(s), which shows this knowledge was not just propaganda by the Catholic Church and was believed well before any of the modern Christian sects who do not believe it.

    Peace be with you.
     
  6. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    What an astonishingly shallow and bigoted statement.
     
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  7. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Mary was mother to Jesus, Mary was mother to James, Joseph, Simon, Peter and Jude - Matthew 13:54-56.
    People knew Mary was the physical mother of Jesus - Matthew 13:53-56.
    The people recognized Jesus had brothers and sisters ( the younger children of Joseph and Mary )
    Greek word for brother as adelphoi' and Greek word for sister as adelphai' ( blood relationship )
    Many years ago a Catholic told me he 'does Not go by what Paul wrote ' ( includes Galatians 1:19 )
    When I asked him why, he answered because that was Paul.
    Jude (Judas) considered himself a brother of James ( James who was a half brother of Jesus ) - Jude 1:1
    Lazarus, and Mary and Martha were real blood brother and sisters, there is No different Bible term for them.
    So, apparently Jerome was Not motivated by Scripture but church tradition outside of Scripture but just being taught as being Scripture - Matthew 15:9
    What is in vogue is Not necessarily the same as what we can learn from the Scriptures.
     
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  8. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I never heard the ^ above ^ before, but a woman told me a close family friend left the seminary because they were teaching what the church teaches without emphasis on the Bible.
    Another told me what they really teach is: how to run a profitable church.
    I never heard of 'Saint Bingo'.
     
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  9. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Either that or it is an inconvenient truth....I guess God will let us know soon enough...won't he?
     
  10. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    Yes, those are the options.
     
  11. Soul

    Soul Member

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    The following excerpts are from JW.ORG, a site you frequent as a Jehovah's Witness, regarding your Watchtower Society:
    This is textbook theology and thus you are affiliated with a theological institution. If theological institutions only turn out theologians — not Christians, as you say, would you also say you are not a Christian? If not, then to paint "theologians" as something bad and not Christian, or any other religion is not only hypocritical but asinine, as well as an attempt to use it as propaganda, including anti-intellectualist propaganda against other religions.
     
  12. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    The difference is we do not teach "theology"; we are taught the scriptures and are encouraged to research everything we are taught to make sure that it is from the Bible and not outside of it. Like the Beroeans in Acts 17:11. That is the difference.

    Many of the Catholic people I have encountered over many years did not know a Bible from a catechism.....some of them even produced photographs of Mary in the clouds with great devotion in their eyes....but when I asked why it was a picture (obviously doctored) of a statue of Mary rather than her real self, they seemed perplexed as if they'd never thought of it. I guess idolatry will do that to you.

    I don't need to use propaganda against other religions....those religions are very easily shown up to be teachers of what Jesus never said or did.

    Like these....
    Did Jesus ever claim to be part of a three headed god? NO!
    Did he ever solicit worship for himself? NO!
    Was Mary a figure in the Bible to be adored and given undue honor? NO!
    Was there a teaching that an immortal soul would depart the body at death? NO!
    Is there such a place as Purgatory in the Bible? NO!
    Is there a "hell" of eternal fiery torment for the wicked? NO!
    Is infant baptism a scriptural? NO!
    Should images be used in worship? NO!
    Was the cross a religious symbol for Christians before Catholicism introduced it? NO!
    Were there "priests" officiating in massive cathedrals in original Christianity? NO!
    Were those who were shepherds in the congregation to wear distinctive garb and headgear and accept titles? NO!

    Can you find any of these beliefs in the Bible? If so please provide the scripture chapter and verse.....
     
  13. Soul

    Soul Member

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    You can pretend that what you do is somehow different from what others do, to keep feeling smug and superior to them, but it is still theology. Literally. And I get it — every Christian group teaches that they are the ones to spread Scripture in its truest form, but to deny that it is "theology" to make a bizarre point against religious scholarship is pretty impressive for being unique in its arrogance. Bravo.
     
  14. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    According to the dictionary, "theology" is:
    "the study of the nature of God and religious belief."
    It is not the study of God's word....the church altered the nature of God by creating the trinity, when the Jews did not ever know such a God, and which is nowhere found in scripture. By the church's own admission the trinity is not biblical.

    None of the Catholic church's "religious beliefs" are taken from the Bible....so where do you suppose they came from?

    Was Jesus smug and superior when he castigated the Pharisees? Was Paul? Was John the Baptist? (Matthew 3:7-10) Exposing lies is a Christian duty because lives are at stake. It was not going to make them popular. (John 15:18-21)

    None of Jesus' apostles were educated at the religious schools of Judaism for a very good reason....what they taught was a corruption based on human traditions and not on God's word.....Christendom is simply a repeat performance.

    Matthew 15:7-9...to the Pharisees Jesus said.....
    "Hypocrites, well hath Isaias prophesied of you, saying:
    8 This people honoureth me with their lips: but their heart is far from me.
    9 And in vain do they worship me, teaching doctrines and commandments of men."
    (Douay)

    Christendom has done exactly the same thing, for the very same reason.....why do you think history repeats?

    Could you attempt to answer the questions posed to you in post #33 please.....we are in a debate forum after all.
     
  15. Soul

    Soul Member

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    See below.
    The study of Scripture is an aspect of theology because it illustrates God's nature, His relation to the world, the type of faith we are to practice, etc. To say it is not is like saying Hermeneutics, the study of Scripture, is not an aspect of theology, or that Ichthyology, the study of fish, is not an aspect of biology.

    I will not, at least in this thread, because they are off-topic. Also, you have demonstrated dishonest and double-standard tactics in a discussion by lying — having said that I am "someone who doesn't want to know," to evade answering certain questions of mine, and now saying I should answer yours merely because we are on a debate forum.
     
    #35 Soul, Jun 28, 2021
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2021
  16. Soul

    Soul Member

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    That is not said in Mt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3, rather "is not ... his brethren (brothers) James, and Joseph, and Simon, and Jude."

    The Greek word for "brother" [singular] is "ἀδελφός" (adelphos) and "brothers" [plural] is "ἀδελφοὶ" (adelphoi), and it has a range of meanings, e.g., "fellow believer," fellow countryman," "kinsman," etc. The meaning "kinsman," or "blood relation," cannot only be used in place of "sibling," but also "uncle," "nephew," "cousin," etc.

    Okay. And?

    Refer to post #2 for why the authors of the James and Jude epistles were Apostles James and Jude (Judas/Thaddeus) of Alphaeus.

    Refer to the OP for scriptural support Simon, Joseph, James, and Jude (Judas/Thaddeus) were not Jesus' step/half-brothers.
     
    #36 Soul, Jun 28, 2021
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2021
  17. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Yep...""the study of the nature of God and religious belief."
    No mention of the Bible even though all we know about God and Christ is from the scriptures.
    Don't you find that just a little odd?

    All it is is men's opinions about God based on very little scripture.....
    Jesus and his apostles taught from the scriptures. So do we.Theology is not the study of scripture but more about how the church wants to read scripture in order to promote its own doctrines....ignoring everything that doesn't fit.

    Well, perhaps I should start a thread and we can examine them one by one......what do you think? I would really like to see the scriptural basis for every one of them.....otherwise how can you justify beliefs and practices that did not originate in "original" Christianity...."original" meaning first century....not doctrines that were formulated in later centuries.

    Seriously? That is your excuse. What questions did I evade. I answered you....but you evaded my questions. See posts #15 and #17.
     
  18. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    That does seem to indicate James son of Alpheus is Jesus brother. When I saw the thread I thought it would be about the author of James. That is I am told the brother of Jesus, but the author doesn't say so. Instead he calls himself a servant of God and of the lord Jesus Christ.
     
  19. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe that Mary (Alpheus) was not the mother of the Carpenters son.
     
  20. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe a woman can be pure and innocent and have relations with her husband.
     
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